Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Well, we don't know where she shot him, that's true. She could have shot him in the shower after she cut his throat and dragged him there, then rinsed the shower stall. Here is the final summary from the ME's official autopsy:

", “Based on the autopsy findings and investigative history, as available to me, it is my opinion that Travis Victor Alexander, a 30-year-old Caucasion male, died as a result of sharp force trauma of the neck and torso."

High velocity blood spatter from gunshot

http://hemospat.com/terminology/images/High_Velocity_Impact_Spatter.jpg


Where is it?

Oh, she shot him in the shower last? How did she get the trajectory of that head wound? In the shower he is lying down with his head towards the back of the shower.

IMO

 

[zaza]

Small caliber bullets like .22 and .25 have little mass and change direction more easily than larger calibers. All it takes it a change in tissue density inside the body to make it change direction and go in another trajectory. This is one reason why .22s are responsible for the most firearm deaths as well as how common they are. My dad is a first responder and he has told me many times about gunshot wounds with small calibers that had an entrance wound on one body part and an exit wound elsewhere. One example is that the bullet entered near the femur and spiraled up it into the abdomen. Larger caliber bullets would have blasted through he leg and exited from the leg. So these small caliber bullets can be extremely deadly because of that fact. And that's one reason why the ME can't rule out just how damaging this shot was because of this calibers tendency to go in different direction and that he could not examine the brain due to decomposition. It may have went through other lobes of the brain for all we know. People that aren't well versed in guns and ammo totally dismiss .22 and say they aren't deadly but these people don't know what they are talking about. Yes you do want a more reliable bullet with stopping power for self defense but don't underestimate a .22 or .25. They're just not good for self defense if you have something better because they are so small the person attacking you can continue coming after you if no vital structures are hit because the bullet is small and has little stopping power when a larger calibers force can stop someone in their tracks even if shot is not fatal. But obviously the small calibers death rate stands for itself.

Thanks so much - really good information.

 

[danzn16]

Where's the blood spatter from the gunshot to the head?

There would still be spatter even if he is dead when shot.

IMO

Why would there be spatter if there was no blood flow to that region because he had already bled out? It's a small caliber so it wouldn't blow a huge hole out and result in brain tissue going elsewhere. More evidence he was shot last IMO.

 

[danzn16]

High velocity blood spatter from gunshot

http://hemospat.com/terminology/images/High_Velocity_Impact_Spatter.jpg


Where is it?

Oh, she shot him in the shower last? How did she get the trajectory of that head wound? In the shower he is lying down with his head towards the back of the shower.

IMO

He didn't have any blood left to splatter!!!

ME stated wound wasn't hemorrhagic and why he thinks its after death. No blood, no spatter. Easy

 

[zaza]

High velocity blood spatter from gunshot

http://hemospat.com/terminology/images/High_Velocity_Impact_Spatter.jpg


Where is it?

Oh, she shot him in the shower last? How did she get the trajectory of that head wound? In the shower he is lying down with his head towards the back of the shower.

IMO

It's apparently all conjecture because we weren't there. I'm speculating, of course. However, here's another opinion:
"DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ (On the Nancy Grace show): Well, it says to me that the gunshot wound to the head likely was the last gunshot wound, and it is important, I think, because if that had been the first injury, then he would have been knocked out by that bullet". This was my thought from the beginning. Have you ever been shot in the face? Or had a severe injury to the sinus cavity? It's a big shock, a stunner, and easily could knock someone out from the pain. I stand by her stabbing him first.

 

[molly333]

It's apparently all conjecture because we weren't there. I'm speculating, of course. However, here's another opinion:
"DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ (On the Nancy Grace show): Well, it says to me that the gunshot wound to the head likely was the last gunshot wound, and it is important, I think, because if that had been the first injury, then he would have been knocked out by that bullet". This was my thought from the beginning. Have you ever been shot in the face? Or had a severe injury to the sinus cavity? It's a big shock, a stunner, and easily could knock someone out from the pain. I stand by her stabbing him first.

That doesn't answer my question about how she gets that head wound trajectory in the shower after she slits his throat. No it's not all speculation. There should be evidence backing up our opinions.

I ran into the side of a door at full speed once [someone was chasing me]. So I know what it feels like. I got two black eyes even though I hit my forehead. I didn't pass out but was very stunned by it but still aware of my environment, which, happily, was a friendly one. I was in no mental state to fight off an attacker.

IMO

 

[molly333]

Why would there be spatter if there was no blood flow to that region because he had already bled out? It's a small caliber so it wouldn't blow a huge hole out and result in brain tissue going elsewhere. More evidence he was shot last IMO.

We don't need blood flow for high velocity blood spatter.

Would you agree that any bullet is high velocity relative to, say, a knife?

Oh, you are saying there was no blood left anywhere in his body when she shot him? Really?

How did she get that trajectory? Lie down behind him?

IMO

 

[zaza]

That doesn't answer my question about how she gets that head wound trajectory in the shower after she slits his throat. No it's not all speculation. There should be evidence backing up our opinions.

I ran into the side of a door at full speed once [someone was chasing me]. So I know what it feels like. I got two black eyes even though I hit my forehead. I didn't pass out but was very stunned by it but still aware of my environment, which, happily, was a friendly one. I was in no mental state to fight off an attacker.

IMO

So where is your evidence that she shot him first?

 

[molly333]

He didn't have any blood left to splatter!!!

ME stated wound wasn't hemorrhagic and why he thinks its after death. No blood, no spatter. Easy

Oh but it was hemorrhagic, just not in the brain. The brain was apparently uninjured with well preserved and symmetrical cerebrum and the dura mater intact. The brain slides showed no signs of trauma.

But, he bled profusely through the frontal sinus wound into his nose and mouth. We can see it in the sink and the floor in front of the sink.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

I just read this in the Phoenix New Times: "First, a county medical examiner has testified that the gunshot almost certainly didn't come first -- because it was a fatal wound.
In other words, when the bullet blasted through Alexander's forehead, into his brain, turned, then lodged in his cheek, Alexander likely would have fallen to the floor, dead or nearly dead. With that sort of gunshot wound to the head, he simply could not have defended himself from the knife attack, as he clearly did judging by the numerous defensive wounds on his arms."

This is the first time I read that the gunshot wound would have been fatal. It means that he couldn't have fended for himself once this occurred. I have to admit that I'm quite surprised that a bullet could turn in the brain then move in another direction. Why would this happen?

Not even the ME agrees with the apparent conclusion of this article that the gunshot wound was a fatal wound.

During his testimony, the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury." However, he also said the gunshot wound "would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

 

[New1]

Maybe OT, but I just took a PTSD test online tonight and it came back that my symptoms WERE consistent with PTSD. I've never had anything stressful enough to cause PTSD. I lied on the test. It is very easy to come up with a diagnosis of PTSD if you lie on the test. You pretty well know what answers to check that would be consistent with having PTSD if you are of normal intelligence. That being said, I give no weight at all to the defense expert's diagnosis of JA suffering from PTSD. IMO, she remembers everything about the killing. There was no fog, and she faked the PTSD test.

 

[zaza]

Oh but it was hemorrhagic, just not in the brain. The brain was apparently uninjured with well preserved and symmetrical cerebrum and the dura mater intact. The brain slides showed no signs of trauma.

But, he bled profusely through the frontal sinus wound into his nose and mouth. We can it in the sink and the floor in front of the sink.

IMO

Well, she stabbed him in his head, his chest, his upper torso, his back, lots of spitting up to do from knife wounds. Also, there was evidence that she attempted to clean up in the bathroom. She could have wiped any blood spatter from the gun away or smeared it. Also, we know she broke a glass, and there was water on the floor in the bathroom, which could mean she attempted to wash something away.
And on the contrary, the ME said that there was decay in the brain - not well preserved.

 

[molly333]

So where is your evidence that she shot him first?

Last picture she takes of him, he is sitting in the shower and she is taking the picture from above. She is standing.

This is the picture just before the ceiling picture.

She is in the perfect position to get that trajectory shot.

She shoots him from above and the shot goes through his face from top to bottom and right to left.

The blood spatter is in the shower.

He is stunned but not passed out. Brain is intact. It's a facial wound.

She shoots again and the gun jams, just like she told us in the Ninja story.

Now she needs to change weapons. She gets the knife while he makes his way to the sink.

You know the rest.

Now you have a stolen gun carried from California and used in Arizona for a head shot. Head shot fails so weapon is changed. Premeditated murder.

IMO

 

[zaza]

Last picture she takes of him, he is sitting in the shower and she is taking the picture from above. She is standing.

This is the picture just before the ceiling picture.

She is in the perfect position to get that trajectory shot.

She shoots him from above and the shot goes through his face from top to bottom and right to left.

The blood spatter is in the shower.

He is stunned but not passed out. Brain is intact. It's a facial wound.

She shoots again and the gun jams, just like she told us in the Ninja story.

Now she needs to change weapons. She gets the knife while he makes his way to the sink.

You know the rest.

Now you have a stolen gun carried from California and used in Arizona for a head shot. Head shot fails so weapon is changed. Premeditated murder.

IMO

I disagree with you but nice theory.

 

[LambChop]

Last picture she takes of him, he is sitting in the shower and she is taking the picture from above. She is standing.

This is the picture just before the ceiling picture.

She is in the perfect position to get that trajectory shot.

She shoots him from above and the shot goes through his face from top to bottom and right to left.

The blood spatter is in the shower.

He is stunned but not passed out. Brain is intact. It's a facial wound.

She shoots again and the gun jams, just like she told us in the Ninja story.

Now she needs to change weapons. She gets the knife while he makes his way to the sink.

You know the rest.

Now you have a stolen gun carried from California and used in Arizona for a head shot. Head shot fails so weapon is changed. Premeditated murder.

IMO

Funny, she never mentioned the gun jamming to Samuels.

 

[zaza]

Not even the ME agrees with the apparent conclusion of this article that the gunshot wound was a fatal wound.

During his testimony, the ME said that the bullet passed through TA's brain and the gunshot wound was a "serious injury." However, he also said the gunshot wound "would not immediately incapacitate or kill him." That's a direct quote from the ME.

And here's the quote I found, "the gunshot wound could have been a fatal wound, but there is a chance that Alexander was shot in the head after he had already died, because there was a lack of hemorrhaging in the brain."

 

[molly333]

well, here's the thing.

I'm probably the only person on this board who knew that Jose Baez was winning that case in Florida.

So you can fight me on this gun shot wound, but it's the weakest part of the prosecution case, by far.

Don't come crying to me if the Jury gives her second degree or less.

IMO

 

[zaza]

Funny, she never mentioned the gun jamming to Samuels.

Yes, I thought about this, Lambchop. If the gun actually did jam and she had to use that as an excuse to go get the knife, then she'd have to admit that the she pulled the trigger. Her story is that the gun just went off by itself. I think that's why she says the gun shot happened first because her description of what happened doesn't really warrant the kind of force she exerted. If she admits to remembering the stabbing therein we shall find intent, premeditation.

 

[zaza]

well, here's the thing.

I'm probably the only person on this board who knew that Jose Baez was winning that case in Florida.

So you can fight me on this gun shot wound, but it's the weakest part of the prosecution case, by far.

Don't come crying to me if the Jury gives her second degree or less.

IMO

I can tell that you're probably the smartest person on this board. IMO

 

[RealityMan]

So where is your evidence that she shot him first?

In my opinion, almost all of the evidence points to the gunshot coming first except the ME's testimony that TA would not have been able to sustain his defensive wounds after suffering from the gunshot wound. Some experts believe the ME is wrong, And so do I.

To me, the most compelling evidence of the gun delivering the first blow is the sequence of the photos when viewed according to their time stamps. I believe just by looking at the photos you can see that JA was not ever threatening TA with a weapon all of the way through the last accidental shower photo. Yet, 44 seconds after the last shower shot, JA snaps the bathroom ceiling photo. And 62 seconds after the bathroom ceiling photo, JA has inflicted all of the stab wounds on TA, including the final neck slash.

Now look at TA's position in the last shower photo. JA is holding the camera in her right hand. She has not yet threatened TA with a weapon. As she moves in for the kill, which weapon is she most likely to use?

I believe it has to be the gun, for all of the reasons I mentioned previously.