Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Dr. Drew is another gun firster!

Shot in the face, bleeding over the sink, he says.

His cohost--why would a woman attack a man with a knife--too risky.

Dr. Drew--I guess if it was an impulsive act, she grabs the knife...

IMO

 

[Clue Finder 55]

Well, we are not talking about brain swelling prior to the shot, are we? Do you really know the volume of space between the bone and the brain at the particular site of the bullet damage? Well even if you studied anatomy, you couldn't, because none of us know the exact site of the fossa penetration based on the minimal description Horn presented in the autopsy report.

The fact of the matter is you continue to ignore the complete absence of anything in the report that indicates the brain was penetrated by the bullet. And, worse, you choose to ignore the information Horn wrote that suggests there WAS no brain penetration.

Let us at least all agree that the autopsy report represents a primary, objective source of forensic information. This information was recorded shortly after the murder before any potential for politics and influence to possibly lead Horn to spin the findings toward one preferred scenario or another.

So, really, WHO is doing all the assuming??? :facepalm:

Dave

My wife was a neurosurgeon for many years and she told me that if the heart was still pumping blood and the frontal lobe was nicked by a bullet that there would be a lot of blood in the brain cavity.
She also said the sinus cavity as well would have been full of blood as well.
If he was shot after his throat was slit there would be little to no bleeding in these places,just like the Mr Horn said.
I have a strong tendency to belive my wife as well in this matter as she has done hundreds of brain operations and obviously knows the brain well.
The gun shot came after death just like the medical examiner said.

 

[wasnt_me]

In both of the last two shower photos, there is indisputable evidence that the shower is still running. The water was not turned off in either of these photos and was probably never turned off during the killing.

I agree. I see water going down the drain beneath his legs. And that picture seemed to have been taken while she was crotched because the angle is not downward.

I think they could recreate that last shot of the ceiling, and they'd be able to tell where she was, standing or crouching if they could create a matching photo. Well, irrespective of her using zoom, which I don't think she was using.

 

[molly333]

Beasley agrees the trajectory of the bullet is consistent with him sitting in the shower in last picture. He says the Jury should be told this by crime reconstructionist so they will know [and won't have to fight for weeks like we have].


IMO

 

[New1]

True but she did say she also writes with her right hand so she could have easily stabbed with her right hand. For example my daughter is right handed but for some reason she does alot with her left hand.

I saw her writing in court today with her LEFT hand when she was taking notes.

 

[LaneGirl]

I agree. I see water going down the drain beneath his legs. And that picture seemed to have been taken while she was crotched because the angle is not downward.

I think they could recreate that last shot of the ceiling, and they'd be able to tell where she was, standing or crouching if they could create a matching photo. Well, irrespective of her using zoom, which I don't think she was using.

BBM - I belive the testimoy was approx 3 feet off the ground but someone in the know for sure correct me if I'm way off.

 

[molly333]

My wife was a neurosurgeon for many years and she told me that if the heart was still pumping blood and the frontal lobe was nicked by a bullet that there would be a lot of blood in the brain cavity.
She also said the sinus cavity as well would have been full of blood as well.
If he was shot after his throat was slit there would be little to no bleeding in these places,just like the Mr Horn said.
I have a strong tendency to belive my wife as well in this matter as she has done hundreds of brain operations and obviously knows the brain well.
The gun shot came after death just like the medical examiner said.

Can you ask your wife how to get that bullet trajectory if he is in a prone position? Shot across the face, right to left. From a distance of about 2 feet. Did she lie down behind him?

 

[deedee21]

It was in court.

Here it is:


Jodi arias - YouTube

You can find the trial on youtube. Does anyone know if todays trial is posted on this board yet?

 

[molly333]

BBM - I belive the testimoy was approx 3 feet off the ground but someone in the know for sure correct me if I'm way off.

I just remember reading the detective said it was about waist height. Don't know if that's right or not.

But you can tell it's closer to the ceiling than not.

 

[molly333]

See what Dr. Drew said. That's what I'm worried about.

The knife first looks impulsive. Second degree murder or less.

IMO

 

[Clue Finder 55]

Listen to the testimony....'possible', 'possible', 'possible'...

I guess we ALL missed the part where Horn is certain about much of anything beyond the neck slash and vena cava wound, including the part that Travis would have been immediately incapacitated by a headshot. Can you say 'fuzzy forensics'? Is that all you guys got to keep trying to force-fit this loser to the evidence??:banghead:

Ok, maybe I'm entering the Twilight Zone here, but I think I'm hearing knifers argue, on one hand, that blood doesn't decompose at the same rate as the brain, and therefore Horn's intracranial observations are valid, and on the other hand (your comments above) that the decomposition of the blood and tissues was such that the extent of bleeding could not be reliably ascertaine

:doh:

Dave

That is not true the brain if it is bleeding will show that a lot of blood was there even if the brain is decomposing the blood still is present.
Don't believe me--ask a neurosurgeon--I have

 

[LaneGirl]

I saw her writing in court today with her LEFT hand when she was taking notes.

She also writes with her right hand. A lot!

 

[molly333]

That is not true the brain if it is bleeding will show that a lot of blood was there even if the brain is decomposing the blood still is present.
Don't believe me--ask a neurosurgeon--I have

Ask her--what if the SVC is cut seconds after the gunshot wound? and what if the carotid and jugular is cut seconds after that?

62 seconds from start to finish. Let us know what she says.

 

[wasnt_me]

See what Dr. Drew said. That's what I'm worried about.

The knife first looks impulsive. Second degree murder or less.

IMO

Why is it impulsive? What makes it so?

 

[molly333]

Why is it impulsive? What makes it so?

well premeditated murder of a 200 pound man in great shape by a 120 pound woman: You steal a gun, drive 1000 miles, and shoot him with the gun.

But, if you are grabbing a knife against this guy it looks like something that was not thought out. It looks more spur of the moment. Maybe even self defense.

Ok I know about all the wounds and so forth, but in the heat of self defense, or fighting for your life, you could go crazy with fear and terror.

I"m worried about the Jury buying this idea if knife first.

Beasley seems worried, too.

IMO

 

[wasnt_me]

I still don't understand how it looks impulsive. There are many serial killers out that have preferred knifing people to death, and those killings are lure killing, right? Just like this one? Him lured into the shower.

There's no way to prove stabbing him was not part of her plan to make him pay. We see premeditated murders in other cases that take place using more than one weapon. So I'm not sure why it is not premeditated just because her first opportunity to inflict damage came in the form of a knife.

Murders probably do not always go exactly as the murderer plans. So an interruption of their plan will cause them to have to improvise. That doesn't mean the killing wasn't deliberate.

ETA: I don't know that Travis was in great shape. He was losing weight but I don't know that meant he was in any condition to fight off a knife attack. As you know, I also think that duct tape was in the house, outside the washer for a reason--because it was part of the crime scene. If she made him duct tape himself in those two minutes before the last picture was taken, then it stands to reason he was hindered in a fight.

She explains that they used the knife to cut the rope. Why couldn't she have attempted to use it to cut the duct tape instead? then she'd have put down the gun that she was using to make him do as she asked. Then he charged her. She was not expecting that, so she had to knife him. Low defensive wounds to the hands because they are duct taped. Shot in the head because she's mad at him for messing up her plan. She overkills him.

Yes, it's only a theory.

 

[froggytuff]

after reading it all i still cant buy the premiditated allegation. i hope mr martinez will be able to bring it home for us at closing

 

[molly333]

I still don't understand how it looks impulsive. There are many serial killers out that have preferred knifing people to death, and those killings are lure killing, right? Just like this one? Him lured into the shower.

There's no way to prove stabbing him was not part of her plan to make him pay. We see premeditated murders in other cases that take place using more than one weapon. So I'm not sure why it is not premeditated just because her first opportunity to inflict damage came in the form of a knife.

Murders probably do not always go exactly as the murderer plans. So an interruption of their plan will cause them to have to improvise. That doesn't mean the killing wasn't deliberate.

yeah, but serial killers are not taking on a victim twice their size. They can pick their victims and pick the ones they are prepared for because of their vulnerability.

The other problem is the messy crime scene. It looks disorganized and unplanned.

I could see stabbing him as part of her plan to make him pay, but not unless he was disabled firsl. Would you plan a murder of someone twice your size with a knife? The Jury's going to talk about stuff like this.

I don't think this murder went as planned. The gun jammed.

IMO

 

[LaneGirl]

well premeditated murder of a 200 pound man in great shape by a 120 pound woman: You steal a gun, drive 1000 miles, and shoot him with the gun.

But, if you are grabbing a knife against this guy it looks like something that was not thought out. It looks more spur of the moment. Maybe even self defense.

Ok I know about all the wounds and so forth, but in the heat of self defense, or fighting for your life, you could go crazy with fear and terror.

I"m worried about the Jury buying this idea if knife first.

Beasley seems worried, too.

IMO

Agree, but JA by her own words are that she shot first and she was able to get away before the fog rolled in. So maybe they will believe that part of her testimony. Plus I don't think the State was super stuck with knife first. In fact when JA was on cross with JM he went with her story in asking his questions. When you feel nervous just go read jury questions they asked JA.

 

[wasnt_me]

yeah, but serial killers are not taking on a victim twice their size. They can pick their victims and pick the ones they are prepared for because of their vulnerability.

The other problem is the messy crime scene. It looks disorganized and unplanned.

I could see stabbing him as part of her plan to make him pay, but not unless he was disabled firsl. Would you plan a murder of someone twice your size with a knife? The Jury's going to talk about stuff like this.

I don't think this murder went as planned. The gun jammed.

IMO

I'd have to go through and dig up some serial killer cases to prove that there have been serial killers who have taken on victims bigger than they are. But I don't think size matters. strength, stamina and endurance matter. I've seen some guys who "look fit" but don't have the traits I just named.

I started working at a CrossFit gym. They have women Jodi's shape in there, beating some of the men, so I can't say Jodi's a wilting flower.

I keep explaining that I think she disabled Travis with duct tape. Again, she uses the "rope" to explain why a knife would be upstairs. Why can't the knife be up there to cut the duct tape to bind him instead? I think she was clever to come up with the rope story to cover for the duct tape. We see no evidence of a rope, but evidence of duct tape.

I agree that the murder did not go as planned. She'd hoped to duct tape him, taunt him in the shower, and shoot him. But she messed up when she bent over him to cut the duct tape roll off his hands with the knife. Or he charged her, knocked the gun away and she had to get the knife that she'd brought up there to cut the duct tape with.

I realize that they have not discussed that duct tape in court, but it was there, and it would be an explanation as to how she could overpower Travis with few defensive wounds.

There are tons of messy, gruesome crime scenes. The sloppiness of it should not be indicative of whether it was planned, though. It'd be a mistake for a jury to assume a disorganized sociopath would have a neat clean crime scene. Look at where Jodi lived. Her grandparents house was totally disorganized.