John Ramsey's New Book

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, in my opinion, the location of JBR's body was either staging or simply a quiet location, and as you and others in this place have detailed with the available evidence, it would seem it is relocation for staging or hiding rather than the site of the killing.

So where now are we suggesting the initial attack took place? Because quite frankly, if it's not in the store room in the basement, it must logically be even CLOSER to the parents location (and Burke's) given the said they were in bed.

The urine stains outside the store room, is there anyway to determine whether it was recent/older and from that, whether it was direct (as in someone on the floor) or dropped from a height (as in someone walking or being carried).

I'm just trying to resolve in my mind the urine stain.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but in all the time I've been reading this case, I'd assumed everything took place down in the basement, so I need to come to terms with the attack taking place up stairs. Or at least not in the store room.

In my mind I'm back-tracking from the closed room.

wonderllama,

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but in all the time I've been reading this case, I'd assumed everything took place down in the basement, so I need to come to terms with the attack taking place up stairs. Or at least not in the store room.

You have had a AHA moment! This is what staging does, reasonable sounding people accept element(s) of the staged crime-scene as bona-fide and arrive at false conclusions.

There is no crime-scene per-se in the wine-cellar it is only named as such because that is where she was found, by her father no less. Its akin to a dump site, where the primary crime-scene is elsewhere, in this case, somewhere upstairs.

Study the evidence and you should find all of JonBenet's person was staged. But the wine-cellar was not, there is a dichotomy between the wine-cellar as a crime-scene and JonBenet's person.

In my mind I'm back-tracking from the closed room.

Thats it, backtrack to JonBenet's pineapple snack, and ask yourself what might have happened next?

So where now are we suggesting the initial attack took place? Because quite frankly, if it's not in the store room in the basement, it must logically be even CLOSER to the parents location (and Burke's) given the said they were in bed.

JonBenet was sexually assaulted upstairs then either accidentally or deliberately whacked on the head. This was followed by staging, which may have placed her back in her bedroom, but then placed her down in the basement, dressed to match the R's version of events e.g. longjohns. On the latter point the pinapple snack contradicts their version, so we know she was upstairs in the breakfast bar when the R's stated she asleep in bed!

The urine stains outside the store room, is there anyway to determine whether it was recent/older and from that, whether it was direct (as in someone on the floor) or dropped from a height (as in someone walking or being carried).

This is a factoid, it has not been corroborated that it was linked with JonBenet. It might be urine deposited by JonBenet's pet dog?

When you read evidence that matches say a pineapple chemical in the urine stain with residue left in JonBenet's bladder, you can assume JonBenet may have died on that spot, otherwise it is of no evidentiary value , similar to the touch-dna.

in my opinion, the location of JBR's body was either staging or simply a quiet location, and as you and others in this place have detailed with the available evidence, it would seem it is relocation for staging or hiding rather than the site of the killing.

Its all staging, effected so that the R's could execute their Abduction Scenario about JonBenet. With JonBenet hidden behind the wine-cellar door, they hoped to buy time so they could flee Colorado by plane. This was their plan, it was all premeditated.


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[UKGuy]

The beginning of John's book is available to read!

Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books

He says that Patsy made the comment about the My Twinn doll looking like JonBenet in a casket on Christmas Day---before JBR died. But I always thought that Patsy said that after the murder....

BTW, you can use the search box to search the entire book, but you'll only see a snippet of the sentence the "word" is from. I search for Holloway and nothing came up, so it looks like he doesn't mention his relationship with Beth.

And a search for "benet" shows that JonBenet's name is spelled wrong (Jon Benet) 43x in the book!!!!!!

eileenhawkeye,

Well here is a review. I've posted it complete under fair use copy, and for critical review.

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-the-other-side-of3

In the book The Other Side of Suffering John Ramsey shares his untold faith story, a journey from grief to grace. Years ago I read with interest Lawrence Schiller’s book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town subtitled “The Uncensored Story of the JonBenét Murder and the Grand Jury’s Search for the Final Truth,” as well as John and Patsy Ramsey’s story, The Death of Innocence: Precious Moments Seasons of Faith. The media coverage of the Ramsey’s tragedy and the malicious accusations of this irresponsible journalism have instilled in me a lingering empathy for John and Patsy’s Ramsey and their unforgettable story.

Ramsey reiterates a summary of details surrounding death of six-year-old JonBenét by murder on Christmas of 1996. He tells of the impact on the family as a result of the years of media speculation. He openly speaks of the emotions experienced while trying to prove their innocence, while going through the anguish and trauma of grief. He describes the new DNA technology which has cleared all family members of any involvement in the death of JonBenét.

This is the story of John Ramsey’s spiritual journey. He tells of lessons learned: the power of intercessory prayer, the importance of practicing spiritual disciplines. He expresses how he and Patsy worked through the seven stages of grief after JonBenét’s death. He tells of the recurrence of Patsy’s ovarian cancer and of how she courageously battled the disease for two years until her death in 2006.

Ramsey weaves the story of his service through Youth With a Mission (YWAM) a Christian discipleship training organization. John spent three months in India assisting local pastors’ work in small villages. He candidly speaks of the suffering of this densely inhabited country.

Award-winning author Marie Chapian collaborated in the writing of this book. She has captured the spiritual depth and sensitivity of John Ramsey’s spiritual journey. She combines a balance of reporting and transcendence in relating John’s story. The underlying message of The Other Side of Suffering is that “the best days of life are ahead…”

I'll let everyone note the obvious errors. As I suspected it was ghost-written, its really a biography aimed at restoring John Ramsey's credibility, citing his spiritual growth and good works yada yada.

How many will be converted?

I love this bit journey from grief to grace. That makes him sound like Pope Paul, eligible for sainthood. Or transcendence in relating John’s story. his soul must be soaring in the stratosphere, basking in infinite light as he moves beyond normal existence.


p.s. this same review has been posted multiple times across different review forums!


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[DeeDee249]

I think I'm gonna be sick....

 

[wonderllama]

Its all staging, effected so that the R's could execute their Abduction Scenario about JonBenet. With JonBenet hidden behind the wine-cellar door, they hoped to buy time so they could flee Colorado by plane. This was their plan, it was all premeditated.

You had me until here.
Flee Colorado seems a strange suggestion.

I'm not discounting anything given what we know about the case, but they weren't heading to Cuba - weren't they just heading to another state?

I think the delaying of finding the body was akin to a child who has eaten all the biscuits in a tin hiding the tin - it delays the inevitable, he doesn't escape the facts.

One assumes that the knowledge of JBR's whereabouts was too much even for JR, hence his deciding to find her.

 

[Tadpole12]

The beginning of John's book is available to read!

Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books

He says that Patsy made the comment about the My Twinn doll looking like JonBenet in a casket on Christmas Day---before JBR died. But I always thought that Patsy said that after the murder....

BTW, you can use the search box to search the entire book, but you'll only see a snippet of the sentence the "word" is from. I search for Holloway and nothing came up, so it looks like he doesn't mention his relationship with Beth.

And a search for "benet" shows that JonBenet's name is spelled wrong (Jon Benet) 43x in the book!!!!!!

Heyya eileenhawkeye,

Yes, I very much enjoyed reading the segments available online.
JR's encounter with the beggar, and the mention of Lazarus, provides a moment of reflection.

maybe JR will promote the book on the CBN
http://www.cbn.com/700club/ShowInfo/Schedule/

 

[UKGuy]

You had me until here.
Flee Colorado seems a strange suggestion.

I'm not discounting anything given what we know about the case, but they weren't heading to Cuba - weren't they just heading to another state?

I think the delaying of finding the body was akin to a child who has eaten all the biscuits in a tin hiding the tin - it delays the inevitable, he doesn't escape the facts.

One assumes that the knowledge of JBR's whereabouts was too much even for JR, hence his deciding to find her.

wonderllama,

You had me until here.
Flee Colorado seems a strange suggestion.

Why strange, it is common knowledge? The R's would have likely flown interstate, then down to South America, so to avoid extradition.

Any of the decent JonBenet books will tell you at around 1:40 p.m. a detective overheard John Ramsey on the phone, telling his pilot to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta. John Ramsey was told to cancel the flight. Bear in mind John Ramsey had just discovered JonBenet at 1:00 p.m.

One assumes that the knowledge of JBR's whereabouts was too much even for JR, hence his deciding to find her.

Not quite, what it might tell us is that things were not going as planned earlier that morning, prior to the 911 call?


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[UKGuy]

I think I'm gonna be sick....

DeeDee249,
I'll bet this was all written with his new wife in mind.

Reading over the autopsy, yet again, it says JonBenet was whacked on the right side of her skull, towards the back.

Is that her left hand side, as per her left arm, with me looking directly on the facial side of her skull?

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[BBB167893]

Perhaps the sexual assault did happen in the basement, with the paintbrush: not for sexual stimulation, but to cover up the sexual assault that took place before, which left the chronic vaginal injuries found at autopsy. Maybe the killer(s) didn't know those would show up at autopsy, or hoped they wouldn't.

That's my take on it, too, KK.

 

[BBB167893]

Hey SD , can't imagine what you said but good for you posting an apology.

Ref your earlier post I wouldn't make a very good witness btw

It was pretty bad, FairM. My only defense is that it was a thoughtless offense rather than a malicious one (as opposed to some things I could mention--YOU know what I'm talking about!)

 

[BBB167893]

I now wonder if the Ramseys ever worried about a jury at all. Somehow, I can see Patsy Ramsey having another one of her "visions": in this one, she saw them getting away with it, becoming famous victims of a foreign faction, and leading people to Christ in the name of JonBenet, with Patsy playing Mary, mother of Jesus/JonBenet. :dramaqueen: John got to play Job. Poor downtrodden Ramseys, keeping the Faith through their suffering, soon to be rewarded by Gawd in Heaven. lease:

And woe unto the ungodly wretches who got in their way on the trip there. :fuse:

Thing is, in this vision, Patsy was right: they got clean away with it.

Except for us who see the Light.

Well said! In truth though, leading people to the Lord in JonBenet's name would have at least been a worthwhile aim!

 

[Tadpole12]

Was this the same religious church group that Patsy and John did the live interview with in Hawaii when she was nearing the end of her life?

Interesting how the players in this case somehow transected at so many points: Alex Hunter was vacationing in Hawaii when JonBenet was murdered.

John and Burke went to Hawaii a few years ago at Christmas, after Patsy died. Burke tweeted about it: locations, time schedules, airports, even photos of the hotel and himself at the airport with JR's plane in the background. He and John were drinking beers together at one point, he mentioned.

Heyya KK.

Yes JR and BR were said to have been in Hawaii in '09.

YWAM is a good works ministry.

YWAM and 700 Club:
'Spiritual warefare: the politics of the Christian Right'
"hit and miss humanitarian relief shipments"
"The Christian Anti Comminism-Crusade"
http://books.google.ca/books?id=VRD...Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=YWAM and 700 club&f=false


"YWAM's Ship Equipped Ministries Grows!":

http://www.ywam.org/News-Stories/news/YWAM's-Ship-Equipped-Ministries-Grows

 

[Nova]

...Why strange, it is common knowledge? The R's would have likely flown interstate, then down to South America, so to avoid extradition.

Any of the decent JonBenet books will tell you at around 1:40 p.m. a detective overheard John Ramsey on the phone, telling his pilot to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta. John Ramsey was told to cancel the flight. Bear in mind John Ramsey had just discovered JonBenet at 1:00 p.m....

It's a strange idea because at the time the plan was put into effect, JR had to fly his wife and son to the rendezvous spot and pick up his older son, then somehow head to South America. Vast distances and long flight times are involved. We don't even know that his private plane would have had the range to get there, do we? If he planned to fly commercial, he still had to get the older son and then arrive at an international airport. There's never been evidence that he booked tickets to SA, so we have to believe he was just assuming he could get tickets at the airport; but that would also mean he was prepared to wait for a flight once he got to said airport.

Moreover, unless JR already had large sums of money in secret, offshore accounts, he didn't have time once 911 was called to liquidate enough assets to support a long stay in SA.

So why initiate a plan (the RN, etc.) that would necessarily bring the police to the house at such an early hour? If his destination were Bolivia, JR could have left JBR in the cellar, locked up the house and told the pilot that JonBenet was staying with her grandparents. This would have given him time to get everyone else to SA. The ransom note did not.

By the time JR was heard arranging a trip to Atlanta in the afternoon, he may have been trying to get PR and BR away from Boulder police interrogation, but the body had been found and it was rather late to flee the country without being noticed.

 

[Nova]

There really is no way to determine when or how the urine stains got there. What was actually found was creatinine, a substance found in DRIED urine....

As far as I know you are correct that the urine stains cannot be dated.

But I believe creatinine is found in wet urine as well as dry. It's also found in blood, since measuring residual creatinine in blood is an indicator of whether the kidneys are functioning properly. Albeit for different reasons, my cat and I both have our creatinine levels tested regularly.

 

[UKGuy]

It's a strange idea because at the time the plan was put into effect, JR had to fly his wife and son to the rendezvous spot and pick up his older son, then somehow head to South America. Vast distances and long flight times are involved. We don't even know that his private plane would have had the range to get there, do we? If he planned to fly commercial, he still had to get the older son and then arrive at an international airport. There's never been evidence that he booked tickets to SA, so we have to believe he was just assuming he could get tickets at the airport; but that would also mean he was prepared to wait for a flight once he got to said airport.

Moreover, unless JR already had large sums of money in secret, offshore accounts, he didn't have time once 911 was called to liquidate enough assets to support a long stay in SA.

So why initiate a plan (the RN, etc.) that would necessarily bring the police to the house at such an early hour? If his destination were Bolivia, JR could have left JBR in the cellar, locked up the house and told the pilot that JonBenet was staying with her grandparents. This would have given him time to get everyone else to SA. The ransom note did not.

By the time JR was heard arranging a trip to Atlanta in the afternoon, he may have been trying to get PR and BR away from Boulder police interrogation, but the body had been found and it was rather late to flee the country without being noticed.

Nova,

It's a strange idea because at the time the plan was put into effect, JR had to fly his wife and son to the rendezvous spot and pick up his older son, then somehow head to South America.

Really, presumably you reckon John Ramsey was simply going to take a vacation in Atlanta, due to the stress of his daughter becoming deceased?

There are a lot of things we do not know. But one thing we do know 100%, John Ramsey, within 40 minutes of finding his dead daughters corpse, intended to leave Colorado for Atlanta. Burke Ramsey was no longer in the house, he was at Fleet White's house, so maybe he would have been left behind. The R's strategy was to evade justice, and if that meant avoiding extradition, then some country that afforded such a convenience might be next on the destination list.

John Ramsey is a millionaire, the owner and investor in many LLC's. Once outside the legal scope of Colorado, what he might or might not do, to achieve his ends, is entirely speculative, but unlike Joe Pedophile, lacking these resources, he could without any difficulty be living in Bolivia, with a new identity and passport etc. Money can purchase citizenship, no problem. $10,000 is the average starting price.

So why initiate a plan (the RN, etc.) that would necessarily bring the police to the house at such an early hour?

This is a question you should answer. JonBenet died about 1:00 a.m. thats a lot of time to work out who you might phone, excluding medical assistance, of course!

By the time JR was heard arranging a trip to Atlanta in the afternoon, he may have been trying to get PR and BR away from Boulder police interrogation, but the body had been found and it was rather late to flee the country without being noticed.

You should offer your services to the Devil, he is always looking for intelligent advocates.


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
I'll bet this was all written with his new wife in mind.

Reading over the autopsy, yet again, it says JonBenet was whacked on the right side of her skull, towards the back.

Is that her left hand side, as per her left arm, with me looking directly on the facial side of her skull?

.

The RIGHT side of her skull means HER RIGHT - Hand side. Looking at her face to face, her RIGHT side is on the observer's LEFT. Her head was found cocked to the right shoulder- this means the hole and fracture are next to the floor.

 

[wonderllama]

wonderllama,

Why strange, it is common knowledge? The R's would have likely flown interstate, then down to South America, so to avoid extradition.

Common knowledge that he was overheard trying to keep the flight going.
Pure speculation that he was planning a jaunt down to South America.

I only ask that we stick with the obvious rather that speculate on what might have happened had something else happened.

Any of the decent JonBenet books will tell you at around 1:40 p.m. a detective overheard John Ramsey on the phone, telling his pilot to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta. John Ramsey was told to cancel the flight. Bear in mind John Ramsey had just discovered JonBenet at 1:00 p.m.

That part is true. That part is documented.
A Brazillian relocation is not, so we shouldn't add it to the mix.

I don't think we can extract "E" by adding "A + B" and reaching "C", therefore "D" and presumably "E". That doesn't help in my opinion.

 

[UKGuy]

Common knowledge that he was overheard trying to keep the flight going.
Pure speculation that he was planning a jaunt down to South America.

I only ask that we stick with the obvious rather that speculate on what might have happened had something else happened.



That part is true. That part is documented.
A Brazillian relocation is not, so we shouldn't add it to the mix.

I don't think we can extract "E" by adding "A + B" and reaching "C", therefore "D" and presumably "E". That doesn't help in my opinion.

wonderllama,
Well given the R's might have been attempting to evade justice in planning a flight to Atlanta, then to avoid extradition, I think its fair speculation to assume south america may have been their next destination, otherwise why bother leaving Colorado?


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[UKGuy]

The RIGHT side of her skull means HER RIGHT - Hand side. Looking at her face to face, her RIGHT side is on the observer's LEFT. Her head was found cocked to the right shoulder- this means the hole and fracture are next to the floor.

DeeDee249,
Thanks for that, I was not sure what the perspective was. Well if someone who was right handed whacked her on the head, conventionally you might expect her injury to have been on her left side? Were any of the R's left handed?

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[FairM]

The beginning of John's book is available to read!

Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books

He says that Patsy made the comment about the My Twinn doll looking like JonBenet in a casket on Christmas Day---before JBR died. But I always thought that Patsy said that after the murder....

BTW, you can use the search box to search the entire book, but you'll only see a snippet of the sentence the "word" is from. I search for Holloway and nothing came up, so it looks like he doesn't mention his relationship with Beth.

And a search for "benet" shows that JonBenet's name is spelled wrong (Jon Benet) 43x in the book!!!!!!

It appears to be the same as DOI?:maddening:

 

[wonderllama]

wonderllama,
Well given the R's might have been attempting to evade justice in planning a flight to Atlanta, then to avoid extradition, I think its fair speculation to assume south america may have been their next destination, otherwise why bother leaving Colorado?


.

Panic.
Simple as that.
Just like the whole attempt to muddy the water after they realise what they'd done to their child.

Panic.