JonBenet's Dream Team

[BOESP]

...discussing the truth and lies in this case...I'm bumping this here again....

All of the experts we consulted agreed on prior vaginal abuse.This is in Steve Thomas's book p253...Look to have alot of experts....

Now this is Steve Thomas opinion on what he thinks,,A much more likely cause of the injuries to my thinking was some sort of corporal punishment being meted out as a discipline if JonBenet wet or soiled the bed.

Now who do we go with here....

Ravyn, it is hard to determine what are lies, what are mistaken opinions, what are facts, when we don't have first-hand access to evidence. We have reproduction, second- and third-generation copies of the autopsy and photos, ransom note, interviews (which contain several typos), various books, etc.

As to the books, Steve Thomas and the Ramsey book are the two I consider closest to the crime. Evaluating what is said in both, factoring in any possible bias, and considering the training of all people involved, I can only conclude that Thomas has the most accurate and realistic grip on what happened. His explanation is really pretty simple.

The new results on touch DNA can be argued until the cows come home. It doesn't convince me or sway me to exonerate the Ramseys based on other information known to the public.

 

[Ravyn]

Ravyn, it is hard to determine what are lies, what are mistaken opinions, what are facts, when we don't have first-hand access to evidence. We have reproduction, second- and third-generation copies of the autopsy and photos, ransom note, interviews (which contain several typos), various books, etc.

As to the books, Steve Thomas and the Ramsey book are the two I consider closest to the crime. Evaluating what is said in both, factoring in any possible bias, and considering the training of all people involved, I can only conclude that Thomas has the most accurate and realistic grip on what happened. His explanation is really pretty simple.

The new results on touch DNA can be argued until the cows come home. It doesn't convince me or sway me to exonerate the Ramseys based on other information known to the public.

About the DNA,I agree especially since it could have already been there or main thing can't even be prove it came from that night...And typos I can also agree...But why,just PR and can't help to feel JR had something more to do with this crime...More than staging or covering it up but this is just my opinion..And I was trying to figure out if there was sexual abuse or not...If no sexual abuse I have to change my scenarios...

 

[Ravyn]

First reports of the hair found on the blanket JonBenet was wrapped in stated pubic hair then went to be an armhair from PR...Now isn't there a difference with the two types of hair...And before it went to PR it said to be simialar to MR's...

 

[DeeDee249]

First reports of the hair found on the blanket JonBenet was wrapped in stated pubic hair then went to be an armhair from PR...Now isn't there a difference with the two types of hair...And before it went to PR it said to be simialar to MR's...

First reports about the hair being a pubic hair were likely based on a visual inspection only. Of course it can be determined precisely what kind of hair it was, which it eventually was found to be a hair from Patsy's forearm.
I have never read that the hair was thought to belong to MR (JR's daughter from his first marriage). Nor did I ever read that it was similar to MR's. Patsy and her stepdaughter were not blood relatives and share no DNA. It was similar only in the fact that it belonged to a woman. It was a PALM PRINT on a door in the basement that eventually was found to be from MR.

 

[Ravyn]

First reports about the hair being a pubic hair were likely based on a visual inspection only. Of course it can be determined precisely what kind of hair it was, which it eventually was found to be a hair from Patsy's forearm.
I have never read that the hair was thought to belong to MR (JR's daughter from his first marriage). Nor did I ever read that it was similar to MR's. Patsy and her stepdaughter were not blood relatives and share no DNA. It was similar only in the fact that it belonged to a woman. It was a PALM PRINT on a door in the basement that eventually was found to be from MR.

If I'm not mistaken I read one of Steve Thomas's quotes about the hair being similar to MR's hair cause it said if MR was there it was most likely that MR would never use that blanket...But if not from ST then I read that from ACR...

 

[DeeDee249]

If I'm not mistaken I read one of Steve Thomas's quotes about the hair being similar to MR's hair cause it said if MR was there it was most likely that MR would never use that blanket...But if not from ST then I read that from ACR...

I don't recall reading it, but can't rule it out. It would be odd to describe a hair as "similar" when it isn't a blood relative. No one but JB used that blanket- it was the one from her bed and was washed every time she wet the bed.

 

[Ravyn]

FBI Assessment. "The FBI believed that JonBenet's vaginal trauma was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, and they had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse. The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police." (PMPT pg 306)



So the FBI didn't think prior sexual abuse just to mislead the police...Or did they change their minds later...

 

[BBB167893]

FBI Assessment. "The FBI believed that JonBenet's vaginal trauma was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, and they had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse. The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police." (PMPT pg 306)



So the FBI didn't think prior sexual abuse just to mislead the police...Or did they change their minds later...

Look again, Ravyn: They were referring to the injury from that night, not the older injuries.

 

[madeleine]

FBI Assessment. "The FBI believed that JonBenet's vaginal trauma was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, and they had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse. The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police." (PMPT pg 306)



So the FBI didn't think prior sexual abuse just to mislead the police...Or did they change their minds later...

This is another very confusing issue for me.

So if both the note AND the sexual assault were part of a staging....what sense does it make??
I guess if you wanted to stage a sexual crime then yes,you would have assaulted the victim(post mortem in this case).But then why write a RANSOM note?It only makes LE to think there's something wrong about everything(happened).If you have the ransom note.....why bother assault her?

The so-called staging elements and the RN only contradict each other.I don't think the R's were THAT stupid?Why make it SO complicated,doesn't make sense.Especially the sexual assault part.Why add THAT.It's not like it's such a pleasant thing to do fgs.

 

[BBB167893]

This is another very confusing issue for me.

So if both the note AND the sexual assault were part of a staging....what sense does it make?? I guess if you wanted to stage a sexual crime then yes,you would have assaulted the victim(post mortem in this case).But then why write a RANSOM note?It only makes LE to think there's something wrong about everything(happened). If you have the ransom note.....why bother assault her?

The so-called staging elements and the RN only contradict each other. I don't think the R's were THAT stupid? Why make it SO complicated, doesn't make sense. Especially the sexual assault part. Why add THAT. It's not like it's such a pleasant thing to do fgs.

Any order you want those answered in?

 

[DeeDee249]

The so-called staging elements and the RN only contradict each other. I don't think the R's were THAT stupid? Why make it SO complicated, doesn't make sense. Especially the sexual assault part. Why add THAT. It's not like it's such a pleasant thing to do fgs.

Any order you want those answered in?[/QUOTE]

Just take 'em as they come, SD.

It is precisely because it is so contradictory that the answer is so simple. "What a web we weave"....comes to mind. One lie had to lead to another. It became a point of no return eventually.

 

[Ravyn]

This is another very confusing issue for me.

So if both the note AND the sexual assault were part of a staging....what sense does it make??
I guess if you wanted to stage a sexual crime then yes,you would have assaulted the victim(post mortem in this case).But then why write a RANSOM note?It only makes LE to think there's something wrong about everything(happened).If you have the ransom note.....why bother assault her?

The so-called staging elements and the RN only contradict each other.I don't think the R's were THAT stupid?Why make it SO complicated,doesn't make sense.Especially the sexual assault part.Why add THAT.It's not like it's such a pleasant thing to do fgs.

Same here....Why leave the RN if it would go back to PR....Cause the whole RN states she dies....Why sexually assault her,why pick this part for staging...

 

[DeeDee249]

The note was absolutely necessary. There was a dead child in the house. That DEMANDS an an explanation. The truth was not an option. Saying she was kidnapped was also necessary. By placing the 911 call, it violated the first rule of ALL ransom notes- call police and the victim dies.
What a perfect way out.

The sexual assault is more complex. There was prior abuse and the injuries that night were meant to cover that up. There may also have been a strenuous cleaning with douching involved if JB had soiled herself yet again.
While some of the vaginal injuries may have been caused by Patsy's regular douching of JB, that wouldn't cause the erosion of the hymen, which was caused by rubbing. Actually, abrasions are also caused by rubbing away the top layers of tissue, so which ever word you prefer- the hymenal erosion indicates abuse.

 

[Ravyn]

The note was absolutely necessary. There was a dead child in the house. That DEMANDS an an explanation. The truth was not an option. Saying she was kidnapped was also necessary. By placing the 911 call, it violated the first rule of ALL ransom notes- call police and the victim dies.
What a perfect way out.

The sexual assault is more complex. There was prior abuse and the injuries that night were meant to cover that up. There may also have been a strenuous cleaning with douching involved if JB had soiled herself yet again.
While some of the vaginal injuries may have been caused by Patsy's regular douching of JB, that wouldn't cause the erosion of the hymen, which was caused by rubbing. Actually, abrasions are also caused by rubbing away the top layers of tissue, so which ever word you prefer- the hymenal erosion indicates abuse.

Can you please show the link where the friends said PR used douches on JonBenet...Was it on the ACandyRose.....

 

[DeeDee249]

Can you please show the link where the friends said PR used douches on JonBenet...Was it on the ACandyRose.....

Sorry, no link. I have read this for years, right here. I don't think it was ACR. It may have been in one of the seven books I read or in a LHP depo. I'll search LHP depos, but I am not going to go through all the material I have read.

 

[madeleine]

The note was absolutely necessary. There was a dead child in the house. That DEMANDS an an explanation. The truth was not an option. Saying she was kidnapped was also necessary. By placing the 911 call, it violated the first rule of ALL ransom notes- call police and the victim dies.
What a perfect way out.

The sexual assault is more complex. There was prior abuse and the injuries that night were meant to cover that up. There may also have been a strenuous cleaning with douching involved if JB had soiled herself yet again.
While some of the vaginal injuries may have been caused by Patsy's regular douching of JB, that wouldn't cause the erosion of the hymen, which was caused by rubbing. Actually, abrasions are also caused by rubbing away the top layers of tissue, so which ever word you prefer- the hymenal erosion indicates abuse.

@bold
Why note leave the ransom note and take JB out of the house then.Leaving the dead body behind (assuming that there was prior abuse) was a huge risk.And the note contradicts everything that was done to her anyway.If RDI then the note was the biggest mistake IMO.And with their money(help),planes and stuff they would have been able to HIDE (AND bury) her without anyone knowing.The 911 call contradicts the RN once again.If PR would have done this alone or with the help of her weird friends then yeah I would have understood why everything about the staging is so absurd.But JR WAS THERE.And he's different.

 

[cynic]

Why not leave the ransom note and take JB out of the house then?

I imagine there was some discussion (argument?) relating to that, and also possibly whether or not to have a ransom note, but leaving the house produces its own set of problems.
When do they remove her from the house?
If she is moved at an unusual hour (say, 3 or 4 AM,) and their vehicle is seen at some point, that would be difficult explain later to the police. If they planned to remove her much later, after sunrise for example, they would have to change their plans to meet with the kids, “we wanted to take off at 7. It was a three-hour flight to Minneapolis. That would have gotten us there at 11 (because of different time zones). The kids' flight got in at eleven-ish...I didn't want to be late for the kids' plane...."
At some point they would have to make a 911 call to claim that JBR had been abducted, or, for whatever reason, was missing. That point would have to be very early because the longer they waited, the more complications there could be.
For example, almost immediately, they would have to find some excuse to explain why JBR is not around to Burke (if he wasn't involved.) Then, they would also have to explain to anyone else that might ask about her whereabouts on Dec. 26. What if Joe Barnhill came over, or perhaps some of the kids that normally played with Burke or JonBenet? What if LHP came over a day early for her money? (I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27.)
Every person that they lied to about JBR’s whereabouts could reveal to the police later that JBR was not around prior to when it was claimed she was abducted, kidnapped for ransom, or whatever.
They would also have to make sure that no one unexpectedly found her body, including, but not limited to, Burke (if he wasn't involved) and his friends, and LHP.
If they changed their plans with JAR and MR, would they insist on immediately coming over to Boulder to stay with them? That would impose a new time limit, in terms of getting rid of the body.
And finally, it is much, much easier to explain trace, and other evidence belonging to the Ramseys when the crime scene is exclusively in their home. Let’s take one example, the fiber consistent with PR on the sticky side of the duct tape. Try explaining that to the police if the body was found 20 miles outside of Boulder with maybe nearby tire tracks matching the Ramsey’s car.

Leaving the dead body behind (assuming that there was prior abuse) was a huge risk.

As I’ve suggested above, there are plenty of risks with the alternative.

And the note contradicts everything that was done to her anyway. If RDI, then the note was the biggest mistake, IMO.

You could just as easily make that argument for IDI.
With respect to RDI, I think that, in a twisted way, PR was actually proud of her “creation,” from a dramatic writing standpoint, (that was her “talent,” after all,) IMO.
PR definitely had the “qualifications” to write that note:
Patsy cared about doing things that mattered, but it mattered little to her if others were aware of what she had accomplished. Pearman and others were shocked on the high school's award's day to see Patsy sitting in front of two banquet tables loaded with trophies for speech, drama and academics.
Talented and resourceful, Patsy was coach's dream, said Linda Edison McLean, who met Patsy in 1973, when McLean started coaching the school's speech and debate teams.
"It would be like a first-year basketball coach finding an all-American on the team,'' McLean said. Patsy's particular strength was oral interpretation, which requires a student to interpret a scene from a story or play without costume or props.
Patsy won the state championship in both her junior and senior years and placed second in a national competition for her interpretation of a scene from the play The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, the same scene she used to win the Miss West Virginia pageant in 1977.
For the Miss America Pageant, Patsy wrote a dramatic scene called Deadline based on a local textbook controversy, featuring a journalist with traditional ideas and a young innovative school teacher that expressed Patsy's views about press freedom and censorship.
It took about 40 hours to write and edit, said Linda McLean, who helped Patsy with it
Rocky Mountain News-1997
JR may not have been in full agreement, but under the circumstances, I don’t think either of them were doing their best thinking.

If PR would have done this alone or with the help of her weird friends then yeah I would have understood why everything about the staging is so absurd. But JR WAS THERE. And he's different.

Well, I think they were primarily going back in their minds to things that they read or saw about crime scenes, and did the “best” they could. Could any other average person have done a “better” job, once the decision was made not to do the right thing and call for an ambulance?

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy Ramsey was many things, good and bad. But one thing she was not was a psychopathic killer. The parents knew what happened that night, and depending on your individual theories, involved somehow.
But I cannot believe that Patsy OR JR would take their daughter out of the house that night and BURY her, whether to dig her up later, or have her found by cadaver dogs.
Nor can I believe they would hide her outside, to be preyed on by animals.

The reason for leaving JB's body in the house is as simple. They simply could not bring themselves to remove her. Once she was dead, this was the only way they could deal with her.
SO....to make it as simple as possible- the RN was needed to provide a reason why she was dead.
The body in the basement was there because they could not abide the alternative.
You can put this around and around in your mind- why the note AND a body? Why a body AND a note? But the answer is as simple as that.

 

[BBB167893]

I imagine there was some discussion (argument?) relating to that, and also possibly whether or not to have a ransom note, but leaving the house produces its own set of problems.

At some point they would have to make a 911 call to claim that JBR had been abducted, or, for whatever reason, was missing. That point would have to be very early because the longer they waited, the more complications there could be.

And finally, it is much, much easier to explain trace, and other evidence belonging to the Ramseys when the crime scene is exclusively in their home. Let’s take one example, the fiber consistent with PR on the sticky side of the duct tape. Try explaining that to the police if the body was found 20 miles outside of Boulder with maybe nearby tire tracks matching the Ramsey’s car.

With respect to RDI, I think that, in a twisted way, PR was actually proud of her “creation,” from a dramatic writing standpoint, (that was her “talent,” after all,) IMO.

JR may not have been in full agreement, but under the circumstances, I don’t think either of them were doing their best thinking.
Well, I think they were primarily going back in their minds to things that they read or saw about crime scenes, and did the “best” they could. Could any other average person have done a “better” job, once the decision was made not to do the right thing and call for an ambulance?

What is it they say about great minds?

 

[Ravyn]

Sorry, no link. I have read this for years, right here. I don't think it was ACR. It may have been in one of the seven books I read or in a LHP depo. I'll search LHP depos, but I am not going to go through all the material I have read.

Thanks, I been researching this and still haven't came up on anything about this topic...