Judge Rules Family Can't Refuse Chemo for Child With Cancer

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southcitymom said:
Of course - 13 year olds make life-altering decision all the time! Alas, some of them may not be good ones.

Children join churches at a much younger age than that - I walked down in front of the Baptist congregation at 10 - my decision. Pretty life-altering. At 12, I made the decision to go live with my Dad and not my Mom after the divorce. Very life-altering.

I do understand that the Court believes this 13-year-old is not informed enough to make such a decision. I do not know how much weight the Court gave the age factor. Would the Judge have allowed an eloquent, well read 13-year-old to refuse treatment? I do not know.
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I do not think that joining a church is the same as facing death. Custody decisions are life altering but can be changed for numerous reasons. Death is final.
 
southcitymom said:
I agree. There were lots of questions I would have liked to ask Daniel that weren't asked - I mean maybe they were but are just not in the documents available.

It's interesting. It seems that the because of the stats, people really agree with the Court's decision in this case and I think the stats went a long way in the Court's decision. I wonder - what percentage would the "maybe good news" have to be before it switches back to being the decision of the person with cancer and/or his parents - 10%, 35%, what about 49%. At what magical percentage do you suddenly become able to exercise your basic human right regarding health and at what percentage is it yanked away from you by people who know better? :rolleyes:
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(bold above by me)

I love this question. I wish I had a clue how to begin to develop an answer.

I suspect that the end of a thread to start teasing out this knot may be a consideration of the impact that the decision could have on others.

Questions of individual competency and weight of knowledge will enter into play.

I believe (if you'll excuse the expression :)) that anyone who is certain of an answer, and thinks it to be a simple one, is not thinking the problem through.
 
This kid shouldn't have to pay with his life because his Mom is way out there and his Dad seems uninterested in the whole thing. Maybe he has been picked out to be a martyr by some off the wall small radical group. Being a websleuther and all, I hope his life isn't in immediate danger from being talked into double suicide or something. I really feel sorry for someone living in such a small little world and seeing no future except facing 95% death and never growing up to make his own decisions. I wish I could brainwash a few kids as well as she seems to have been able to, but I'd do it for good positive behavior instead of self destruction.
 
thefragile7393 said:
Excuse me? Does he not have a brain? A mouth to speak? He dosn't have a right to choose his own treatment? He dosn't have a right to say no because he isn't the magic age of 18? Wow.

It's a basic human right to say no to something we don't want, and when you start dictating who can and who cannot say no to something, then you start losing humanity. He has tried chemo, he does not want it. Very simple. His parents support him, as they should. They aren't saying no to treatments, they JUST DON'T WANT CHEMO. It is HIS life. Not anyone else's, not a court, not doctors. It is not the court's life or the doctor's lives, they don't have to live with any consequences or side effects. If they have researched everything and choose to do something else, that is their own personal right and business. As long as a well-informed decision is made, that is their choice. There's plenty being unsaid, and no one knows how much research this family has or has not done, so no assumptions can be made. There is no guarantee he will be cured even with chemo. There is no guarantee his alternative treatments will work either, but they should be allowed to try. Stats are nice, but NO ONe can guarantee a cure. For some people, the "do whatever you want to me so I can live" attitude isn't worth it. For some people, the supposed cure is worse than the disease itself. You may not like it, understand it, whatever, but no one has the right to take away anyone's decision making when it comes to medical treatment for themselves or their minor children. Again, you don't have to like anything about the decision or agree, but just because they don't want to do what the doctors and courts tell them to do does NOT make them bad parents...they are supporting their child with his choice.
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Sure he has a brain... ( although I think he is brain washed) He even has a mouth. He even has a life... One worth saving. One worth living. For all we know he could be the person that comes up with the cure for cancer later in life.

He is 13 years old a CHILD. He can not vote.. He can not join the service...... He can not buy liquor... He can not buy smokes...He can not drive.. He can not sign a contract alone..There is a REASON 13 year old children can not do the above things. Their brain DOES NOT think the same way a adult does.

humanity? Well I think they not giving this CHILD chemo is unhuman when the consequences or side effects will be death.



If you think the parents (the ones who should love him, . teach him right from wrong, protect him and make sure he is not being neglicted medically or any other way) are making the right choice then would it be ok for them to allow him to commit sucide? Because the way I see it they are allowing him to kill himself either way. JMO no disrespect meant.


It was God that gave these man and women the wisdom to come up with these medical treatments. Shouldn't that stand for something? It is to bad not all adults use the wisdom their God has given them.

I have been there where I did not know if my child would live or die. I made some really hard choices and Thank God my son is alive today. He is severely handicap but the light of my life and I thank God everyday for the gift of having him as my son.
 
I sincerely hope social services gets involved with this entire family. Who knows what the medical conditions of the other children might be, or what about their education? If the 13 yr old can't read, what about the other children?
 
Trino said:
I sincerely hope social services gets involved with this entire family. Who knows what the medical conditions of the other children might be, or what about their education? If the 13 yr old can't read, what about the other children?
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I tend to be in agreement with this.

If the court follows through with its consideration to assume custody for the purposes of pursuing medical treatment would this automatically mandate the involvement of Minnesota's social services? Anyone know the particulars of state policy there?

Would such involvement assure a full review of the family's parenting practices?

The parents have "talked the talk" by bringing up IEPs and home schooling discussions. There seems to be reason to question that they have "walked the walk" in pursuit of the responsibilities they chose to undertake. I think an investigation into that would be warranted under the circumstances.
 
From the link above, the scans showed that his tumor has already grown. I was diagnoised last yr with breast cancer. I underwent the toughest chemo treatment out there for any type of cancer. Yes, the side effects are rough but they are so do able. Chemo isn't like it was 10 yrs ago or even 5 yrs ago. Most ppl don't even experience vomiting. If they believe in alternative medicine, I think that's a great supplement to conventional treatment. This child has a chance to live, why would they take that from him?!
 
This is sad. I guess the judge should have taken the boy away. I can't even buy their argument that they are against it for religious reasons because he did take one chemo treatment, got sick, and decided not to take any more. Well, maybe he could have been given some better medications to help with some of the side effects! My dad took chemo for lymphoma and is doing great now. He had prednisone and an antinausea medication to take and felt low sometimes but never any vomiting or anything.

This boy may also not realize it, but I doubt death from cancer is any more comfortable than taking chemo is. :(
 
I can support people that have strong religious beliefs against medical treatment. I don't agree, but I will respect the Amish not getting imunizations and giving birth at home. I can respect the Jehovah Witness' believe in a tie between the soul and blood (sorry if I am incorrectly stating beliefs). If someone has a religious belief, I can respect that and I don't think the state should interfere.

However, this seems to be the case of nutcase parents telling the boy he isn't sick etc. The parents won't even acknowledge that there is a medical concern. This is a case of messed up parents telling a boy that he isn't sick and that natural methods will heal him. The parents are following a guy that set up his group when he learned he had cancer and wanted to do natural healing. I do not consider this religous. I think the state should help the child get the medical treatment he needs.
 
Medical Neglect is CHILD ABUSE. The courts and social system are mandated to "protect" this child from further "child abuse".

Heck if an adult decides not to seek and obtain treatment for their cancer, they are making that decision as an adult for an adult.

But when it comes to a minor child, he is a CHILD. A child in need of protection from his parents and you bet your bottom dollar that the courts will always step in and protect the child FROM HIS PARENTS.

A newborn baby needed a blood transfusion to live. Well the parents objected on "religious" grounds and the baby would die without the transfusion. Guess what the baby was made a Crown Ward(the state taking over care and control of the baby)and the baby did receive the treatment. Despite the "daily" protest from their religious friends and relatives.

Gee, do you think that the life of a child is BLOODLY well more valuable then "religious" beliefs especially when those religious beliefs will kill a child.

After all the parents have a "duty" to protect the child from harm and if they don't the courts will.

But I feel it is too late for Daniel, I am sure when the X-ray was taken the tumor has grown, he still has not had treatment and I feel the longer "Mom and Son" are on the run, he will die and the court decision will be moot and the parents "sentenced" this child to die.

ABUSE is ABUSE, no matter "how others" may want to dress it up.

A child cannot dictate their medical choices as again they are minor children. They need the care and protection of the parents.

The mother had zero intention of abiding by the courts ruling.......she took off and is in hiding. I say when they do catch up with her arrest her: Child Neglect, Child abuse, endangering the welfare of a minor, contempt of court. Gee those just "popped" into my head.

How many cancer patients would give "everything" and anything to have the chance to receive treatment that will cure their cancer for good, with a 100% survival rate. I know a friend who's brother is dying as we speak. We does not want to die, he wants to LIVE, but that is not going to happen as he is terminal. I will not even consider asking him about this.......because he is fighting for every breath and for every day to stay alive.
 
Here's an interesting question...

Does this family have insurance?
If the treatment is court-ordered, who will pay for it?
 
I am not up to date for the US medical care and law, but I feel if the court ordered the treatment then it would be covered under some "state" medical program as it is "legally" mandated.
 
Trino said:
Here's an interesting question...

Does this family have insurance?
If the treatment is court-ordered, who will pay for it?
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Don't know the answer to either of those questions, but as I remember, the mother stated in court that financial concerns had nothing to do with their decision to refuse treatment, so the subject is not germane.
 
This boy has truly wrapped himself around every inch of my heart, and I know I am not alone in that. I wish I were faithful enough to send light through time and space and heal him of these many burdens.

I ache for everyone in involved - the boy, his parents, his family, the Judge, the attorneys, the doctors. I believe they all genuinely feel like they have his best interests at heart

42, thanks for your posts. I don't agree with you about everything, but I like your style! I very much agree with your position on competency and maturity and how that is an individual-specific determination based on many factors. I tend to be all over the board with that stuff too. I will say that I understand the Judge's position that the boy is not fully informed enough to make this decision - I believe the Judge's position is supported by MN law and his own wise observations.

I do want to point out that, literacy issues notwithstanding, there is no evidence that this boy is unintelligent or dimwitted or anything like that. The Judge himself was surprised when the Mom said the boy couldn't read - he told her he seemed like a normal 13-year-old and fully able to express himself verbally.

The reading issues don't bother me as much as they do some. My husband has a hardcore reading disorder and did not even begin to be able to read until 5th grade. It took him 8 years to finish college. Even today, at 42, he struggles mightily with the written word. And yet, he is undoubtedly one of the brightest people I have ever known. On the opposite end of the spectrum is me - I don't ever remember not being able to read, which I was doing well and independently long before I ever stepped into a formal classroom, and I am by no means a brainiac.

I am a huge supporter of homeschooling and would assume this family has complied with MN regulations regarding homeschooling. I hope the Court won't fiddle with them unless there is compelling evidence to do so, and I sure haven't seen any evidence that I consider compelling.

For me, the case comes down to faith. By its very definition, faith is not something that can be proven - faith is belief in the absence of what we humans consider to be verifiable data. As a general rule, Americans respect people's faith, but as this case shows, most of us are NOT willing to accept it over or in place of what we consider to be quantitative scientific data - even though that data changes. It's entirely possible that we may one day discover that chemo is the absolute worst thing you can throw at cancer, but today we consider it a strong tool.

I believe that it is laudable and honorable and reasonable to address cancer with chemo, radiation or anything else Western medicine tells us might cure it. I believe that it is laudable and honorable and reasonable to address cancer with prayer, vitamins, diet and other holistic, less traditional measures. I believe that it is laudable and honorable and reasonable to address cancer as God's will or the Universe's will and let it run its course to wherever it may lead.

I do not believe that any of these courses is universally "better" than the other - they are all different ways to try to gain the same end result of better physical, emotional and spiritual health. Because of my personal beliefs, I cannot in good faith dismiss their choice as nuts. And because it is such a personal choice and different people respond differently to different treatments (ie -people with cancer do die after months of terrible chemo and people with cancer do live after not doing chemo and trying other things), I believe it should remain a personal decision.

Is Daniel informed enough to choose? I don't have enough information to say. I do believe that Daniel's parents are informed enough to choose. His Mom knows what the doctors have said. Parenting is a series of calculated choices in the face of risk. I risk my child's life every time I put him in a car or send him off to ride his bicycle, etc...etc..

I have tried to put myself in his Mom's shoes. That's a little hard to do because I have no principled belief against traditional Western medical "solutions." If my child had what Daniel has, I am 99% sure I would throw everything I could at it to include chemo.

That said, I am very much like his Mom. Rightly or wrongly, I am not the type of person that gives a flying fig about anyone else's command if I think that what they are commanding me to do is morally and ethically wrong. When I find myself in such a situation, I tend to give the authority figure the biggest middle finger I can come up with - and that is what she seems to have done. I can relate. If I were in her situation, I know I would give long, hard, serious consideration to leaving. The one thing that might stop me would be the concern that, if caught, I would be completely taken away from my son and that result would be terrible for him. Also, it would be hard to leave my other children. But if I thought I could get away with it......

While I do not think this child should be forced to take poison into his body, I do hope that he and his Mother come forth - if only so that she can be allowed to face this terrible situation with him. Running puts a great deal of stress on her and on him and consumes emotional and spiritual and physical energy that may be better served focused elsewhere. But it's hard to know what stress might be worse - the stress of fleeing and living on the down-low or the stress of forced chemo.

My continued prayers for everyone involved in this sad situation.
 
fortytwo said:
Don't know the answer to either of those questions, but as I remember, the mother stated in court that financial concerns had nothing to do with their decision to refuse treatment, so the subject is not germane.
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I recall that too - I do not think that is the issue.
 
fortytwo said:
(bold above by me)

I love this question. I wish I had a clue how to begin to develop an answer.

I suspect that the end of a thread to start teasing out this knot may be a consideration of the impact that the decision could have on others.

Questions of individual competency and weight of knowledge will enter into play.

I believe (if you'll excuse the expression :)) that anyone who is certain of an answer, and thinks it to be a simple one, is not thinking the problem through.
Click to expand...

Love this post! And I agree 110% with the last paragraph.

I would love to hear what other people who agree with the Court's decision to force chemo in this case. At what percentage of "possible cure by chemo" do you think the decision should rest with the child and the family? How about you, fortytwo?
 
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