Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[swissmonster]

I have never had a psyche assessment done on me, some would say, why not? that's how it is, but I know people who have, and its no picnic.. he will be cared for and treated politely but these people are fully aware and experienced in assessment of those charged with a criminal act.. even murder, or most probably murder.. Oscar will be one more in the queue of thousands before him, more to come.


I honestly don't see this as a win for Oscar in any context..

Yep, well I've been (un)lucky enough to once go through an intensive psyche assessment (for 3 full months) and it's far from fun. Every move, word, interaction, belief, opinion, fart and breath is looked at, turned over, upside down, inside out. Every actoin is assessed, pulled apart and you're left to put it all back together again. A bit like peeling an onion.
IMO even if he is there from 9 - 4pm it could never equal being an inpatient. A lot goes on in the middle of the night, when you're at your most vulnerable. Shame a real shame.
Reeva deserves better.

 

[sleuth-d-]

• He will spend 30 days as an outpatient at Weskoppies state psychiatric hospital in Pretoria, beginning on Monday 26 May.

• He must attend every weekday between 9am and 4pm (or when excused by his doctors).

• The four professionals overseeing his assessment include Dr Leon Fine, Dr Herman Pretorius and Dr Jonathan Scholtz.

• This panel will compile separate reports for the court to judge whether Pistorius was criminally liable for his actions, and whether he "appreciated the wrongfulness of his conduct".

• The court will resume on 30 June to hear the results of the evaluation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

...
so the maximum number of days is only 25, not 30. clearly they also expect it to take less than 25 - as they also have to meet, agree a dx, and also write up the report...

 

[Zim]

He will have lengthy interviews and a whole range of tests that take from 30 mins to 3 hrs to complete.

Oh boy ! He is not going to like that !

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The Guardian has linked to a Blog by a psych who trained at Weskoppies

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

http://onthecouchwithcarly.com/2014/05/19/so-who-is-really-there-oscar/

Respectfully snipped from your link zwiebel

This blog by a psychologist who trained at Weskoppies psychiatric hospital offers some insight on what form Pistorius's evaluation could take:

They will:

Conduct lengthy psychiatric interviews in which they will obtain his full life history, his family background, his criminal history, and also importantly his psychiatric history.

Administer a range of psychological and other tests. These will include personality tests, neuropsychological tests, tests for malingering (the technical term for faking a mental illness) and general cognitive tests that evaluate each and every cognitive process from intelligence to memory. Each test can take between 30min – 3 hrs to complete. It is an extremely rigorous process. To give an example, the MMPI (The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) has over 500 items.

Observe him during every single minute of every procedure. In addition to the formal interviews and tests, OP’s every move will be scrutinized. He will be evaluated on his appearance, attitude, behaviour, mood and cognitions.

After each member of the team has concluded theses procedures, they will then meet and together they will formulate a diagnosis.

 

[Gryffindor]

Well there it is. Judge's ruling.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

.. and my guess is that he won't be being evaluated/assessed for that whole time period from 9-4 every day (that would be one heck of a lot of work for the psychologists) and that what I take from it is that he has to make himself available during those hours. It may not even be for 30 days, either .. they might even be able to assess him in a period of a week, leaving him with a month's extra holiday (for all we know ..).

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this .

 

[Gryffindor]

So is there a psych that examines him named Pistorious? If so I wonder what the chances are they're related. (cough)

Similar. It's Pretorius not Pistorius.

 

[jay-jay]

That's is actually really funny.

(I'm not in the mood to laugh, though. I may not follow this case any longer. Was very interesting up until now. Had some good laughs, here, and lots of on intelligent conversation). IMO, in the end, he's going to get off with a very light sentence. It maked me ill. )

That's how I feel about it too, CM :/ .. it just feels to me that this is what this mental evaluation is leading up to (and I have a feeling it's not going to be as independent as we are being led to believe). He is going to get off of this scot free, IMO, because it will be found that he was of 'diminished responsibility' at the time of the shooting.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I am disappointed. It does seem like special treatment.

IT IS. So much for this lawyer's view:

"Mannie Witz, a criminal lawyer at the Johannesburg Bar, has said that under SA’s Criminal Procedure Act OP must be treated as an inpatient because he did not volunteer for the evaluation. "He didn't ask to be referred, he opposed it," said Witz, who has been an advocate for more than 35 years and, according to CNN, once taught Judge Masipa. This means OP would have to go immediately into custody, either in hospital or prison, once he is formally referred tomorrow. Witz said "You can't give him any special treatment. He must be treated the same as every other person that is standing trial," and questioned why OP should go to the front of the queue just because of "who he is and because it is a high-profile trial".

He's forgotten something we all know ... OP IS SPECIAL.

 

[Peliman]

• He will spend 30 days as an outpatient at Weskoppies state psychiatric hospital in Pretoria, beginning on Monday 26 May.

• He must attend every weekday between 9am and 4pm (or when excused by his doctors).

• The four professionals overseeing his assessment include Dr Leon Fine, Dr Herman Pretorius and Dr Jonathan Scholtz.

• This panel will compile separate reports for the court to judge whether Pistorius was criminally liable for his actions, and whether he "appreciated the wrongfulness of his conduct".

• The court will resume on 30 June to hear the results of the evaluation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

...
so the maximum number of days is only 25, not 30. clearly they also expect it to take less than 25 - as they also have to meet, agree a dx, and also write up the report...

Ahh thank-you, so the names are similar but not the same.

 

[supernovaNic]

Oscar Pistorius (L) talks to his brother Carl in court this morning as he heard Judge Masipa say he must spend 30 days as an outpatient at Weskoppies psychiatric hospital. Photograph: Siphiwe Sibeko/Reuters

 

[supernovaNic]

I wonder if Nel had anything to do with picking the team. I notice they are all male.

 

[zwiebel]

Whoop's discussing the question of preferential treatment.

Some experts have already stated the outpatient assessment is a waste of time.

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistoriusradio.htm

 

[jay-jay]

Well there it is. Judge's ruling.

Well yes, but your view on it?

 

[K.T]

Judge Masipa: ‘The accused will present himself as an outpatient.’

'Accused present himself to the Westkoppies Psychiatric Hospital.'

This trial shows how much the legal system in South Africa is inequitable. This is preferential treatment. From all my reading most medical and legal professionals suggested 24-hour inpatient is recommended for true in-depth observation. My hope now is that this ‘special consideration’ for Pistorius to be a daypatient means that his narcissism and anger issues will be revealed because he feels protected.

Like the court system in many countries, this is yet another case where being privileged and from a prominent family provides better legal and social treatment than most of the country. For the poor and black, where is the justice for the 20%+ of SA population lives on less than $2 a day.

Really I'm not very impressed by many of the “experts” in Pistorius trial, including the defense legal team’s strategy, Wolmarans, Dixon, prosecution Col. Vermeulen Bateman and Dr Vorster.

I do not believe Pistorius had general anxiety disorder on the night he killed Steenkamp. He may have it now as he may faces a jail term but to diagnose a disorder of GAD and hyper-vigilance by taking the accused words as truth, and not even read the trial transcript, is completely unprofessional for a forensic psychiatrist.

That Judge Masipa may have set a legal precedent for the lower courts to have an outpatient observation for a murder charge is incredibly disappointing. Pistorius and other accused can go back to their ‘minders’ (educational psychologists, enabling family, colluders&#8230 to possibly reinforce and help mask malingering behavior. This is not in general a good direction for the legal system. IMO

 

[Trooper]

I wonder if Nel had anything to do with picking the team. I notice they are all male.

and that is a plus for the prosecution, . and for me, I might add.. I was concerned that some fluffy bunny lady , prone to Hybristophilia, and handicapped with the Dunning-Kruger effect would be appointed to the panel..

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

I agree. It is not a win or loose situation for defence or prosecution .
At the end of the day we will have a comprehensive report from qualified independent specialist's that will establish fully his mental capacity at the time of the crime and prevent his mental state from being used at appeal in the event of him being found guilty of some of the charges .

Good morning/ afternoon/ evening Gbtaketwo

I just wanted to pick up on your point which contains something that bothers me slightly, especially as I have heard it several times from different sources.

Namely, that following the Assessment, an understanding will be gained of OP's mindset at the time of the shooting. I am afraid that is not going to be possible as any issues (if diagnosed,) could have developed in the last 15 months.

What it will actually do is assess whether he currently has any issues. Why is this hugely significant? Because whether he has or not, the defence team are snookered. They cannot claim this affected his behaviour on the night, because it is impossible to tell when the symptoms began and crucially, if they wanted to use it they would have had to carry out tests at the time for it to be credible. Claiming it this late in the day would be a 'third defence' and would clearly smack of desperation.

If he has no issues as described by Vorster, then a pretty poor defence to begin with just falls into complete & utter disarray.

It is another delay but I sense that what we are seeing here is the State ensuring all bases are covered in ensuring the trial is fair, and avenues for appeal being blocked.

Just my humble opinion

 

[zwiebel]

I read something by a forensic psychiatrist once, who was treating a paroled killer. Diagnosed with paranoid Schizophrenia or something. Anyway, I remember he could tell immediately, just from the way the patient recounted his journey to the hospital each time, that his dangerous paranoia was still in full flight. Even though the patient evaded answering questions about anything else.

Something about the way he recounted the number of people who looked at him wrong/followed him/spoke disrespectfully on his way to the visits. The psychiatrist evaluated him as still being an extreme danger to the public.

If I can recall where I read it, I'll link it. It was very interesting, if a little frightening.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Oh. Whoop talking head's just said this outpatient order has set a legal precedent.

So other courts are likely to order outpatient visits for suspected murderers too now....

Maybe, but only if you have money, fame or power most likely. Not for ordinary folk. :tantrum:

 

[Peliman]

Yep, well I've been (un)lucky enough to once go through an intensive psyche assessment (for 3 full months) and it's far from fun. Every move, word, interaction, belief, opinion, fart and breath is looked at, turned over, upside down, inside out. Every actoin is assessed, pulled apart and you're left to put it all back together again. A bit like peeling an onion.
IMO even if he is there from 9 - 4pm it could never equal being an inpatient. A lot goes on in the middle of the night, when you're at your most vulnerable. Shame a real shame.
Reeva deserves better.

I agree as I directly worked many years ago on 4 lock down minimum and maximum criminally insane wards at a state hospital on midnight's.

At two in the morning I've had patients tell me they murdered their mother-in-law in a closet with a hammer. Another explained he came from Mexico to collect a drug debt from someone that wouldn't pay his runners. He ended up shooting his debtor after a struggle. He even told me when he'd be released and he was.

I have reason to believe inpatient evals are better.