Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[jilly]

Well I think this is just another indication that his whole story is a completely ridiculous fabrication.

Don't tell me OP did not have some means of contacting Frank in an emergency via panic button or mobile phone.

Surely this blows his whole "I was so afraid for Reeva and myself and the only thing to do was get my gun for protection" story out of the water? it was ludicrous when it was just the two of them in the house, because all they had to do was push the panic button and go downstairs. Now it is clear that there was another man in the house it is just pathetic.

This panic button keeps coming up. One of the assessors has asked twice about it. The first time Oscar was questioned as to whether Reeva knew how to use the alarm.
Did anyone ever ask Oscar why he didn't use it or are they accepting that it was suffice for him to go into "full combat mode".

 

[44ALLAN]

Well, that's what the trial is for, and if it is found that he executed his girlfriend as you say, then he will be locked up.

Hi minor,

I'm going off the evidence to date.
5 witnesses heard Reeva screaming.

The defence has not removed this testimony one iota so it must be true.
If it's true then OP heard her as well but he still shot her 4 times through the door............3 hitting and killing her.

Premeditated/execution take your pick.

For him to be still out on bail after all this evidence is a disgrace it really is.

 

[Val1]

Question: Why does anyone want to see his bail revoked or see him be committed for inpatient evaluation if outpatient would suffice?

My simple answer:

1) Re revoking bail, isn't that essentially what being held in detention for observation means?

That said, I don't believe he should have been able to accept bail with the conditions imposed upon it and then fought against all of them, within what a week or two?, and then got them all revoked with really little reason other than the prosecution couldn't prove that he wouldn't do all those things.... Yea, like they could prove he would leave the country until he had, seriously?? It certainly smells from behind the scene manipulation, especially since he has since broken most of the previous conditions telling me that he had no intention of honoring them to start with.

2) As for the inpatient/outpatient decision, I stand by my original argument, "for me it's about whether the evaluation itself will be a good and fair thing... how can a proper evaluation be done on an outpatient basis when the tests are designed for an inpatient, fully supervised 30 day commitment? Surely by letting OP go home each day and replenish himself both mentally with the support of his family, friends and legal counsel, and physically with his accustomed diet, social activities and rest quarters it will skew any results? "

 

[Greater Than]

I don't know that these circumstances are normal, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. But on the bail issue, I think the judge granted bail because of weaknesses he perceived in the state's case. As far as outpatient evaluation, my guess is because Masipa knows that GAD is something that requires involuntary commitment for inpatient services.

I don't see either of those decisions as really abnormal.

A criminal law professor with a PhD at a university in South Africa states outpatient evaluation is abnormal.

A mental health enquiry is ordinarily done on an in-patient basis to permit for constant observation: 24/7. This allows psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses, social workers and psychologists to observe the patient in all contexts, in interaction with other patients, at night, to observe how much and how well an accused sleeps and eats, and allows the psychiatrists to take complete control of an accused’s medication.

http://criminallawza.net/2014/05/17/pistoriuss-third-defence-pathological-incapacity-insanity/

 

[Lyra500]

This panic button keeps coming up. One of the assessors has asked twice about it. The first time Oscar was questioned as to whether Reeva knew how to use the alarm.
Did anyone ever ask Oscar why he didn't use it or are they accepting that it was suffice for him to go into "full combat mode".

I do not recall him being asked about the panic button.

I cannot understand why he was not asked why he didn't call Frank. I don't believe he doesn't have a way to contact Frank and call him upstairs when he needs his help.

 

[minor4th]

From memory, most commentators said that granting bail for such a serious charge required showing special circumstances or similar wording. His fairly extensive sworn statement at the time (offered in lieu of actually taking the stand) was one way of him getting bail - apparantly most people just enter a plea and an application. You are probably right about the quality of his defence - Roux lacerated Det Botha at that hearing and that probably helped OP a lot.

However, I think you are mistaken about the perceived weakness of the state's case - the presiding judge had many issues with OP's version and they are mainly the 'oddities' we've been debating ever since. He also applied very strict bail conditions and Pistorius, despite saying at the time he would comply with anything the court imposed re bail, was appealing against them within months.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "perceived weakness" - I believe the judge put it in terms of the state's case being compromised by the investigators. And yes he did say there were several questions OP needs to answer, questions that bothered him, and yes they were the very same issues we've been discussing all along.

 

[minor4th]

A criminal law professor with a PhD at a university in South Africa states outpatient evaluation is abnormal.

But they've probably never had a case like this before where the accused is only diagnosed with GAD and is not claiming diminished capacity.

 

[minor4th]

Hi minor,



I'm going off the evidence to date.

5 witnesses heard Reeva screaming.



The defence has not removed this testimony one iota so it must be true.

If it's true then OP heard her as well but he still shot her 4 times through the door............3 hitting and killing her.



Premeditated/execution take your pick.



For him to be still out on bail after all this evidence is a disgrace it really is.

But it would be really unusual to revoke an accused's bail in the middle of trial when he's not violating his bail conditions.

 

[Really?]

My opinion is because he lied in his bail application and it should be revoked forthwith.
He said he mistook Reeva for an intruder but it is plain for every man woman and their dog he executed her...............the 5 witnesses to Reevas 'SCREAMS' have proved that beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Bang him up and throw the key away for at least 25 year then ask him again what happened on the night he deserves nothing.

I feel so sorry for his family having to play this charade.............they know what he did and it's heart breaking to watch their faces when his lies are proved to be lies.

How anyone cannot see this is beyond me it really is.

one hundred percent agree...mind boggeling really. Lock him up now !:jail:

 

[G.bng]

BBM - when did they all agree on this? Nel merely said it would be 'investigated' when Masipa suggested it would be preferable for OP to be seen as an outpatient. Have you read something that indicates otherwise? If so, do you have a link please?

As requested link to Masipa's ruling below. Sorry it's a video but I always go to the source not the media as journalists and commentators have a habit of putting their own spin... perhaps it's something to do with what brings in more bucks ! ;-) Listen (18:30 onwards) to Nel, Roux and Judge Masipa discussing the order after her ruling and you can see Masipa was at pains to emphasise that counsels were in agreement with the outpatient basis, her final words before adjourning that day being:

"I just want to place on record that it's... I'm glad counsel agreed on this {"this" = the outpatient basis}. I think it should be borne in mind that the the aim of the referral is not to punish the accused twice, so if there is a possibility of making sure that he is an outpatient that would... I think that would be preferable."

But note also where Roux says: "✄... we have discussed the so-called outpatient basis in the Fortman case; I don't anticipate any difficulties on that but we will prepare a proper order for the court's consideration ...✄". So with this and what Masipa said about counsels agreement it appears the judge may have already discussed the matter with counsels Thursday or before court on Friday, which is normal and why advocates are referred to as "counsel", i.e. they counsel clients but they also counsel judges on precedents, procedures, as well as drafting/writing the judge's orders, etc.
JMHOSNNFS,I,OR

☛ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnX2YDYRL4

 

[Lyra500]

Question: Why does anyone want to see his bail revoked or see him be committed for inpatient evaluation if outpatient would suffice?

I believe that proper evaluation requires inpatient care according to a number of the experts. Since it is important that the evaluation is done properly and effectively, I would have thought inpatient care would be better.

I was surprised that OP got bail in the first place given the nature of the crime involved.

I found the rush to get all of the bail conditions overturned pretty distasteful.

But then that was just one of a number of things which OP and his family have done which were questionable in my view.

I feel that both the granting of bail and the overturning of the bail conditions were examples of the preferential treatment which OP has received.

 

[lithgow1]

Now this is what I call bias:

Oscar Pistorius off stand What's next - YouTube

 

[Really?]

It sounds like you're saying that we don't even need a trial ...

The trial is over in my head, yeah...lock him up....

 

[jilly]

I wonder if oscar and Reeva had an argument with her new contract with Capacity Relations.
The company had worked out a plan for her so that she could make more money, to pay her bills and also to help out her parents, and for that she had to show commitment to market her brand. Something that would not please oscar very much, because she would be more in demand for her modelling than ever before.

Sounds likely, knowing his need for control.

It could also have been an argument about Reeva simply not wanting sex that nite.
He seems to fly off the handle for anything. The fact that he was watching *advertiser censored* alone earlier has always always raised my curiosity. According to Oscar they were both in bed asleep at 10pm which seems a little off to me too.

No point ever wondering tho. We'll never know the answer.

 

[G.bng]

Thanks lithgow. So if everything's already been arranged, then what's up for discussion tomorrow in court?

Nada de nada ! ;-)

Edit as should have added that Nel, Roux and Masipa will have discussed and finalised the draft of the order today so tomorrow, if there is a hearing, it will just be to read it.

 

[minor4th]

the trial is over in my head, yeah...lock him up....

lol ...

 

[jilly]

I do not recall him being asked about the panic button.

I cannot understand why he was not asked why he didn't call Frank. I don't believe he doesn't have a way to contact Frank and call him upstairs when he needs his help.

Agree!

 

[soozieqtips]

So, Gryffindor - did you ever find a similar case to OP where the killer wasn't prosecuted? I did ask earlier and you didn't reply, so I'm not sure if that's because you weren't able to find something similar. If you don't answer, I'll assume you weren't able to find a case where someone with a prior history of reckless gun usage shot his partner 4 times in a toilet and then claimed he thought it was an intruder? And wasn't prosecuted? You did say there were cases like this where no one was prosecuted, so I'd like to see a similar example.

Any one of the cases you generalised about will do. Thanks.

 

[Val1]

This is an off the wall question, but it is something that has been bothering me.

It's about the toilet. We saw streaks on the toilet bowl from the flushing jets underthe lip of the toilet, which meant that the toilet had been flushed and wetness existed in some places. Reeva's blood did not stick to the moist areas.

Doesn't that mean that OP flushed the toilet while she was still bleeding into the bowl? Or is there some other explanation?

He could just have a leaky plunger in the tank, where it never stops draining. I've had trouble with that myself, thankfully one of my sons is almost finished his plumber's apprenticeship, I'm hoping he will take on replacing my shower stall next...

 

[jilly]

Now this is what I call bias:

Oscar Pistorius off stand What's next - YouTube

I won't watch Robyn the Reporter. She's not reporting objectively. Another poster mentioned that s/he thinks Robyn may be doing this to get the big interviews with either Oscar or his family after the trial. I sure agree with that!