Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Katzenmoyer]

I'm really enjoying hearing the different ideas and questions you all have. I'm firm RDI and always have been.

From there, I find myself drifting into DocG's camp, at least somewhat. In my opinion, he makes a solid argument about JR writing the note over PR. I have always believed PR wrote that note until I read DocG's theory for the first time in the past week or three.

I, like many, allowed those handwriting experts to lead me down the wrong path called "JR couldn't have written the note." So now I feel like I have at least some closure in regard to the ransom note thanks to DocG. To me, that note is the biggest piece of evidence in this case.

However, one of the things that I often forget is that I've never had access to ALL of the evidence and I'm sure I care about this case so much that I often trick myself into thinking that I have.

I'm a private detective in the Denver metro area and finally visited the Ramsey house a couple weeks ago. It was surreal and I stood there and listened and looked for the longest time. The trees or the wind didn't give me any answers, so that sucked.

Also, I realized I haven't thought much about this case for quite a few years and briefly wondered why. However, I listen to a lot of talk radio to pass time while on surveillance, including Howard Stern, and he recently had on a guest that worked on the Ramsey case under Steve Thomas. The guest wasn't there to discuss the Ramsey case, but it came up and I can't remember the guest's name!

Anyway, he reassured Stern that no one, including the Ramsey family, have been "truly" cleared, regardless of Mary Lacy's letter saying so. It's an unsolved homicide after all. In addition, despite my legal background, I realize that I somehow allowed myself to be brainwashed by that ridiculous move on Lacy's part, i.e. her announcement probably means no RDI!

Finally, despite there being no physical evidence that I know about to put BR in the wine cellar, in contact with the body, and so on, I still can't help but think that such BR physical evidence exists, we just don't know about it for obvious reasons, primarily due to BR's status as a minor in 1996.

Despite DocG's and other's opinions to the contrary, I do believe BR could have and probably did swing that flashlight hard enough to cause her skull fracture (yes, I know it was only one hit).

I also still believe BR was molesting JBR, maybe even JR too (not simultaneously and probably just BR in my opinion).

Plus, I keep thinking that BR and JBR were up late playing in the basement with new Christmas toys when they snuck into the wine cellar with the flashlight to sneak-peak at other gifts.

I understand that there was a light in that wine cellar room, but maybe BR didn't want to use it because he might be caught in there easier, therefore the need for the flashlight.

I suspect things turned violent in that room, i.e. BR maybe smashed her on the head because she threatened to tell on him about something as innocent as looking at his soon-to-come birthday presents stashed in there. Pure speculation, I know, and, if BR was the striker, regardless of the circumstance, I don't believe BR meant to kill her with that head strike.

Is there general consensus regarding which room the head fracture occurred? Again, maybe there's evidence about it that's never been released to the public.

In any event, my thoughts about what transpired next are much foggier, i.e. Did BR prod or trial-and-error choke her with his hands or arms or just some rope out of fear or anger or simply playing around with an unconscious body (no garotte)? Did JR intervene too late and decide to add the garotte staging and more to protect BR with a kidnapping gone wrong scenario. So many questions in my mind, just thinking.

Thanks for listening to me vent and share my opinions too.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

I've gone over and over the scenerios with BR, and just can't wrap my head around it. Even though the theory makes some sense. What could have happened that was so horrible that the parents would cover up the events of JonBenet's death? Answer: To protect their remaining child. Who knows?

Unless BR cracks they will never talk And unless one of them talks we'll never know :banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've gone over and over the scenerios with BR, and just can't wrap my head around it. Even though the theory makes some sense. What could have happened that was so horrible that the parents would cover up the events of JonBenet's death? Answer: To protect their remaining child. Who knows?

Unless BR cracks they will never talk And unless one of them talks we'll never know :banghead:

I will never believe Burke killed his sister.

As a motive, it just doesn't make sense.

I think Burke is a witness though, and he needs to talk, for Jonbenet's sake. No one else has ever spoken for her. Its the only way to erase some of the guilt he carries, for not sticking up for her either that night, and his failings now as an adult.

:maddening:

 

[jobo]

I have to comment on the flashlight. Sometimes what isn't there is more telling than what is. The lack of fingerprints on the flashlight and batteries is a huge red flag to me.
There must be fingerprints all over that house, a family lived there...but something sitting out (not in it's place) is clear of prints? The batteries too? no way.

Also I agree that the ransom note is very important clue. My first thought is 'who would sit down in the house with the people upstairs sleeping, and write a long drawn out but legible ransom note'? My answer: Not an intruder. (thanks DocG for the info)

It is hard to fathom an intruder would commit those acts in the house, he would remove his Victim.
The unbroken spider web in the basement window is another clue that points away from an intruder.

What other cases has this happened in? What case has an intruder come in, taken the child and murdered her in the basement(and left her there) while the family slept upstairs? None that I can think of.
I would appreciate it if anyone can point out any cases like this one, to me.

 

[BOESP]

This is a really good analysis of the JonBenet case. I have a hard time swallowing that it was Burke Ramsey that did this, only because he wasn't even ten years old, but it would explain a lot of things. IDK really what to believe with this one. All I believe for sure is that the parents knew EXACTLY what happened to this little girl. And nobody will ever tell....kind of like the Anthonys and their family secrets no?

http://crimeshots.com/JBMorning.html

I still sit on the fence about who actually did what. At this point it seems JonBenet and Burke could have been engaged in sexual activity that led to JonBenet's death but I believe the death occurred at the hands of either John and/or Patsy. I think this may be where Steve Thomas's corporal cleansing may have come in. He believed Patsy accidentally killed JonBenet during the corporal cleansing.

A reasonable person would not believe that fiber evidence from Patsy or John all arrived by secondary transfer. It would be wonderful to know about all the evidence but I can't see that happening.

Welcome to Websleuths!

 

[UKGuy]

I'm really enjoying hearing the different ideas and questions you all have. I'm firm RDI and always have been.

From there, I find myself drifting into DocG's camp, at least somewhat. In my opinion, he makes a solid argument about JR writing the note over PR. I have always believed PR wrote that note until I read DocG's theory for the first time in the past week or three.

I, like many, allowed those handwriting experts to lead me down the wrong path called "JR couldn't have written the note." So now I feel like I have at least some closure in regard to the ransom note thanks to DocG. To me, that note is the biggest piece of evidence in this case.

However, one of the things that I often forget is that I've never had access to ALL of the evidence and I'm sure I care about this case so much that I often trick myself into thinking that I have.

I'm a private detective in the Denver metro area and finally visited the Ramsey house a couple weeks ago. It was surreal and I stood there and listened and looked for the longest time. The trees or the wind didn't give me any answers, so that sucked.

Also, I realized I haven't thought much about this case for quite a few years and briefly wondered why. However, I listen to a lot of talk radio to pass time while on surveillance, including Howard Stern, and he recently had on a guest that worked on the Ramsey case under Steve Thomas. The guest wasn't there to discuss the Ramsey case, but it came up and I can't remember the guest's name!

Anyway, he reassured Stern that no one, including the Ramsey family, have been "truly" cleared, regardless of Mary Lacy's letter saying so. It's an unsolved homicide after all. In addition, despite my legal background, I realize that I somehow allowed myself to be brainwashed by that ridiculous move on Lacy's part, i.e. her announcement probably means no RDI!

Finally, despite there being no physical evidence that I know about to put BR in the wine cellar, in contact with the body, and so on, I still can't help but think that such BR physical evidence exists, we just don't know about it for obvious reasons, primarily due to BR's status as a minor in 1996.

Despite DocG's and other's opinions to the contrary, I do believe BR could have and probably did swing that flashlight hard enough to cause her skull fracture (yes, I know it was only one hit).

I also still believe BR was molesting JBR, maybe even JR too (not simultaneously and probably just BR in my opinion).

Plus, I keep thinking that BR and JBR were up late playing in the basement with new Christmas toys when they snuck into the wine cellar with the flashlight to sneak-peak at other gifts.

I understand that there was a light in that wine cellar room, but maybe BR didn't want to use it because he might be caught in there easier, therefore the need for the flashlight.

I suspect things turned violent in that room, i.e. BR maybe smashed her on the head because she threatened to tell on him about something as innocent as looking at his soon-to-come birthday presents stashed in there. Pure speculation, I know, and, if BR was the striker, regardless of the circumstance, I don't believe BR meant to kill her with that head strike.

Is there general consensus regarding which room the head fracture occurred? Again, maybe there's evidence about it that's never been released to the public.

In any event, my thoughts about what transpired next are much foggier, i.e. Did BR prod or trial-and-error choke her with his hands or arms or just some rope out of fear or anger or simply playing around with an unconscious body (no garotte)? Did JR intervene too late and decide to add the garotte staging and more to protect BR with a kidnapping gone wrong scenario. So many questions in my mind, just thinking.

Thanks for listening to me vent and share my opinions too.

Katzenmoyer,

Is there general consensus regarding which room the head fracture occurred? Again, maybe there's evidence about it that's never been released to the public.

No, some think basement, others breakfast bar. I go for JonBenet's bedroom, since there was a bloodstain found on her pillow.

After watching the documentary Life with Murder (2010), I have no problem with a premditated BDI.

Storyline

Chatham, Ontario, 1998. Eighteen-year-old Jennifer Jenkins is brutally shot to death by multiple rifle rounds in her family home. The main suspect: her brother, Mason Jenkins, who fled the scene of the crime. After fabricating a story about what occurred, Jenkins was incarcerated. His parents, facing the loss of both their children, chose to support his claims of innocence, repressing the dark secret of their son's true intentions. Concurrently shocking and heartbreaking, John Kastner's finely crafted mystery slowly reveals the many layers of a family dynamic that becomes its own enigma, drawing from a decade's worth of coverage, including police interrogation videos, home movies, and incredible interviews with Jenkins, his family, and the case's investigators. With a skillful eye that eschews sensationalism, Kastner delves beyond the details of the murder to capture...

Similar dynamics to the JonBenet case, family of four, daughter found dead some days after Christmas.

In this case there is a note left, someone is kidnapped, the daughter is left in the basement, covered with a blanket, and house invasion is claimed as the cause.

Although not an exact parallel with the JonBenet case some details are similar. There is a permutation of some of the staging elements evident in the JB case, which can offer some insight into the offenders profile.

Quite an emotional documentary, not for the faint hearted or those that think there are specific certainties in life, this movie will dispel that notion, otherwise its highly reccomended.

So, for me, to explain the head injury, I think someone may have killed JonBenet with premeditation. That is JonBenet was sexually assaulted, somewhere in the house, then either immediately or after a short period of time, someone came to her bedroom and possibly physically attacked her, leading to struggle where she was whacked on her on the head?

The rest is staging.

 

[Katzenmoyer]

UKGuy,

Thanks for answering my question regarding which room of the house.

Can you tell me more about the blood on the pillow? i.e. How certain are we that it was there? Is it JBR's blood?

Also, do we know how much testing was done on the flashlight? I'm aware that there are no prints, even on the batteries.

With regard to your comments about what might have happened moments before the head strike, I like your scenario. I know I mentioned a scenario yesterday about snooping for presents together in the WC, but my most favored scenario is one in which BR was molesting her (again) and she wanted to stop (or not start) and attempted to scream and/or escape, so he struck her on the head to silence and/or stop her.

Can you also tell me more about the statement you made saying you'd be comfortable with a premeditated BDI scenario? Premeditation is a tricky term for me, so I just want to try understand your opinions better.

Sometimes I wonder how many folks turn away from a BDI reflexively and permanently when they hear his name and "premeditation" in the same sentence. It's definitely a loaded word.

Lastly, I agree with the point you conveyed well by bringing up that 2010 true story movie. I'm anxious to check it out. Thanks.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

UKGuy,

Thanks for answering my question regarding which room of the house.

Can you tell me more about the blood on the pillow? i.e. How certain are we that it was there? Is it JBR's blood?

Also, do we know how much testing was done on the flashlight? I'm aware that there are no prints, even on the batteries.

With regard to your comments about what might have happened moments before the head strike, I like your scenario. I know I mentioned a scenario yesterday about snooping for presents together in the WC, but my most favored scenario is one in which BR was molesting her (again) and she wanted to stop (or not start) and attempted to scream and/or escape, so he struck her on the head to silence and/or stop her.

Can you also tell me more about the statement you made saying you'd be comfortable with a premeditated BDI scenario? Premeditation is a tricky term for me, so I just want to try understand your opinions better.

Sometimes I wonder how many folks turn away from a BDI reflexively and permanently when they hear his name and "premeditation" in the same sentence. It's definitely a loaded word.

Lastly, I agree with the point you conveyed well by bringing up that 2010 true story movie. I'm anxious to check it out. Thanks.

I haven't been able to find any reference to blood on JBR's pillow, but here is a rundown on where her blood was found http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA Evidence#BloodEvidence.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I haven't been able to find any reference to blood on JBR's pillow, but here is a rundown on where her blood was found http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA Evidence#BloodEvidence.

For more current information go to aCandyrose or Forum of Justice. One is ran by the owner of this site. They have quite a lot of information that has come to light through the years.

Read Perfect Murder,Perfect Town, James Kolar and Steve Thomas books, and the Bonita Papers for more inside information about JonBenets death. Then read the Ramsey book, Death of Innocence and see the outright lies and cover up.

It was JonBenet's own blood on her pillow. Along with her urine soaked sheets. There was a box that had poop smeared on it also. You can see dried mucus on JonBenet's face in the autopsy photos. I think she was moved to her bed after she was hit and was down.

That might of been when the intruder was thought up. You had to have an explanation for JonBenet"s little body being found assaulted and dead. I tend to lean towards that being Pasty's idea at the time. A story of someone coming in molesting and killing their little girl, leaving her to be found dead the next morning by her parents.

Pasty might of been able to see that was not a really believable story so a kidnapping was her next choice. JonBenet may of convulsed or moved and Pasty knew what she had to do. A safe Burke would mean a dead brain damaged JonBenet. There was no 911 call for help.

I think she took JonBenet to the basement for a new plan. A kidnapping might shield Pasty and hopefully keep John and the police out of the loop, at least for now.

I'm not sure where JonBenet had her panties changed and redressed in the white long johns. It might of been in her room or the basement, but JonBenet's urine was found on the carpet outside the wine cellar door and on the front of her longjohns (her bladder would of released urine when she died.) right by Pasty's paint tote that had red fibers from Pasty's sweater and a piece of a broken paintbrush. One piece of that paintbrush was in the cord used to strangle JonBenet to death. The other piece has never been found, but inside of her vagina was materiel consistent with that paintbrush. She had a bruise on her back from where someone knelt on her back to pull that cord tight. Red fibers were found entangled in the cord that was enbeded in her neck. The same red fibers were on the sticky side of duct tape that was placed over her mouth.

Someone then swaddled her in her white blanket, and moved her into the dark womb like room and placed her down on her back, with more cord looped around her little hands.

I'm not sure if the ransom note was written before of after JonBenet was killed, but it doesn't really matter, it didn't serve it's purpose in the end. It was just a way to buy more time to get outta Dodge and hope the lawyers they were paying would get them off.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Here's the reasons that I can never be BDI -

His voice can be heard on the 911 tape asking "what did you find?". This implies one of two things only, either

He didn't know what they found but knew they'd found something; or
He knew what they'd found because he'd caused it, and was just trying to act innocent.

The first option is easily explained, he overheard the goings on and woke up confused. The second option, where he knows what was found, implies that he originated a coverup himself in front of his own parents.

Bear in mind, this is a child of 9. How likely is he to be a homicidal mastermind capable of manipulating all those around him?

If he did begin the coverup himself, his parents would have believed him in the first instance and called an ambulance for their dying daughter.

It would not even cross an innocent parents mind that one sibling had attacked another and then lied about it. You would immediately be calling an ambulance in a desperate attempt to save your dying daughter. Anyone reading this who has ever had a sick or hurt child knows that child is far, far more important at that moment than the one who's alive and well and bothering you with questions.

The question then becomes, why didn't they call an ambulance?

There is only one logical answer. They were guilty of something.

To me it's like maths, whoever finished her off and completed the staging was the one who hurt her in the first place.

The staging and Burkes question on 911 implies it was NOT Burke.

Another compelling reason why I will never be BDI is the bruising. Jonbenet had bruising to her thighs which implies force. Was he physically big enough to hold her down while assaulting her? I've been faced with a tantruming 3 year old before that it took two people to control, and I'm an adult.

As a victim of brotherly abuse myself, I can assure you that wild horses would not cause Jonbenet to voluntarily submit herself for more pain at her brother's hand. The idea that she was a willing participant in any sexual games is totally unacceptable to me and the bruising indicates noncompliance anyway. Burke was physically unable to cause the smaller injuries, so it logically follows to me, that he didn't cause the major ones either.

There you have it...reasons why I can never accept BDI.

:dunno:

:moo:

 

[PrincessSezMe]

ILikeToBendPages

Wow - so much information I didn't know. Thank you so much for the reference to those sites. I thought I had read most everything there was available on this case, but apparently there is a lot more information out there.

Thank you again!


:gthanks:

 

[PrincessSezMe]

For more current information go to aCandyrose or Forum of Justice. One is ran by the owner of this site. They have quite a lot of information that has come to light through the years.

Read Perfect Murder,Perfect Town, James Kolar and Steve Thomas books, and the Bonita Papers for more inside information about JonBenets death. Then read the Ramsey book, Death of Innocence and see the outright lies and cover up.

It was JonBenet's own blood on her pillow. Along with her urine soaked sheets. There was a box that had poop smeared on it also. You can see dried mucus on JonBenet's face in the autopsy photos. I think she was moved to her bed after she was hit and was down.

That might of been when the intruder was thought up. You had to have an explanation for JonBenet"s little body being found assaulted and dead. I tend to lean towards that being Pasty's idea at the time. A story of someone coming in molesting and killing their little girl, leaving her to be found dead the next morning by her parents.

Pasty might of been able to see that was not a really believable story so a kidnapping was her next choice. JonBenet may of convulsed or moved and Pasty knew what she had to do. A safe Burke would mean a dead brain damaged JonBenet. There was no 911 call for help.

I think she took JonBenet to the basement for a new plan. A kidnapping might shield Pasty and hopefully keep John and the police out of the loop, at least for now.

I'm not sure where JonBenet had her panties changed and redressed in the white long johns. It might of been in her room or the basement, but JonBenet's urine was found on the carpet outside the wine cellar door and on the front of her longjohns (her bladder would of released urine when she died.) right by Pasty's paint tote that had red fibers from Pasty's sweater and a piece of a broken paintbrush. One piece of that paintbrush was in the cord used to strangle JonBenet to death. The other piece has never been found, but inside of her vagina was materiel consistent with that paintbrush. She had a bruise on her back from where someone knelt on her back to pull that cord tight. Red fibers were found entangled in the cord that was enbeded in her neck. The same red fibers were on the sticky side of duct tape that was placed over her mouth.

Someone then swaddled her in her white blanket, and moved her into the dark womb like room and placed her down on her back, with more cord looped around her little hands.

I'm not sure if the ransom note was written before of after JonBenet was killed, but it doesn't really matter, it didn't serve it's purpose in the end. It was just a way to buy more time to get outta Dodge and hope the lawyers they were paying would get them off.

If you believe Patsy was responsible I would love to hear your thoughts on who you believe was responsible for the sexual molestation of JonBenet. Do you think John played any part in that? I tend to agree with SapphireSteel, that Burke was not the one molesting her, but the evidence was there, and it was confirmed by several experts even though her own doctor denied it.

It's obvious IMO that the parents were covering up, but who were they protecting? Themselves or someone else? I have a hard time believing Patsy did this as the result of a bed wetting. I think it goes way beyond that, but that's only MOO.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Thanks for answering my question regarding which room of the house.

Can you tell me more about the blood on the pillow? i.e. How certain are we that it was there? Is it JBR's blood?

Also, do we know how much testing was done on the flashlight? I'm aware that there are no prints, even on the batteries.

With regard to your comments about what might have happened moments before the head strike, I like your scenario. I know I mentioned a scenario yesterday about snooping for presents together in the WC, but my most favored scenario is one in which BR was molesting her (again) and she wanted to stop (or not start) and attempted to scream and/or escape, so he struck her on the head to silence and/or stop her.

Can you also tell me more about the statement you made saying you'd be comfortable with a premeditated BDI scenario? Premeditation is a tricky term for me, so I just want to try understand your opinions better.

Sometimes I wonder how many folks turn away from a BDI reflexively and permanently when they hear his name and "premeditation" in the same sentence. It's definitely a loaded word.

Lastly, I agree with the point you conveyed well by bringing up that 2010 true story movie. I'm anxious to check it out. Thanks.

Katzenmoyer,

Can you tell me more about the blood on the pillow? i.e. How certain are we that it was there? Is it JBR's blood?

Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998, excerpt

16 TOM HANEY: That is 73, 74, 75, and 76 now.

17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).

18 TOM HANEY: That I couldn't tell you right at

19 this moment. Do you remember any staining on that

20 pillow the night you put her to bed?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was dark in there, you

22 know.

23 TOM HANEY: When you put her to bed did you

24 turn on any lights that night, Christmas night.

25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. Maybe. I

.
.
.

21 TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls

22 the drapery, it pulls it back.

23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood

24 or anything, do you?

.
.
.

15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet ever have nose
16 bleeds at night?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
18 Sometimes she might pick her nose, maybe cause it to
19 bleed, but she wouldn't have one of those, you know,
20 dry, you know, to hold her head back kind of thing.

.
.
.

1 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Thanks, Tom.
2 TOM HANEY: I think, if we could check the
3 notes where we left off yesterday, 273, four, five and
4 six. We talked about the stains on the pillow.
5 Next is 277. Can you describe that? Tell us
6 what that is.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like her underwear
8 drawer, one of the drawers there in the bathroom
9 cabinet.
10 TOM HANEY: What is in there?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks like underwear, a
12 hair band or something, and a pencil, a pen, a pen back
13 there. (Inaudible). A magic marker or something. I
14 don't know why that would be in there, but --
15 TOM HANEY: And in the normal course there at
16 home would just underwear be in there or would other
17 items be in there, too.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Primarily underwear, but
19 she -- often times things would be on the top and fall
20 down in the drawers. But that be unusual for a pen
21 like that to be in an underwear drawer.

Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh Interview excerpt

Then there was a photo of the decorative curtain treatment on the wall just behind JonBenét’s bed. One of the ties was undone.
Could JonBenét have hidden behind the drape? The housekeeper didn’t think there was enough space, but JonBenét could have drawn the fabric around her for protection. Had JonBenét tried to protect herself from someone or from something like a stun gun? Linda Hoffmann-Pugh asked herself.

They also showed her a picture of JonBenét’s white thermal blanket which had many urine and brown-colored stains on it. Some of them looked like dried blood.

Then they showed her a picture of JonBenét’s bed, which looked strange to her. Looking at the comforter, you couldn’t tell that the blanket beneath it had been pulled off. The bed looked barely disturbed. Hoffmann-Pugh knew that to pull the blanket off, you had to first remove the comforter, other-wise it would get messed up. But in the photo, it was neat. Maybe the white blanket hadn’t been on the bed at all.

She told the police that the blanket might have been in the washer-dryer outside JonBenét’s room. Then they showed her a photograph of the dryer, with the door open. Inside, she saw JonBenét’s pink-and-white-checked sheets, which she had put on the bed two days before the murder. But on JonBenét’s bed in another photo were the Beauty and the Beast sheets.

The logical explanation, Hoffmann-Pugh said, was that JonBenét had wet the bed on either Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday night. The clean sheets had probably been put on the bed and the wet sheets, blanket, and maybe even the Barbie nightgown were put in the wash and dried. The Ramseys didn’t even have a clothes hamper, she said. When they took off their dirty clothes, they would just leave them lying around.

So there is blood on the pillow, the blanket in the basement, the barbie-nightgown, which all seem to link to JonBenet's bedroom?

Also:http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-barbie-nightgown.htm

"Inside the room, investigators found the white blanket that John said had been wrapped around JonBenet, and the piece of black duct tape which had covered her mouth. .They also found bundled inside the blanket a child's pink Burble nightgown. A red Swiss army knife was also found lying in the corner of the room away from the blanket. On the floor outside the door to the cellar was a paint tray and acrylic painting supplies. One of the detectives observed a wooden handle to a paint brush, the type used by artists, which appeared to be broken and a piece missing. The floor of the wine cellar was vacuumed to collect any trace evidence. The black duct tape, blanket, nightgown, knife, broken paint brush and paint tray, and vacuumed particles were all collected and logged into evidence."


"After the physical evidence had been collected at the autopsy and from the search of the residence, the next step was testing by the Colorado Bureau of Investigations. Blood had been found on the long-sleeved white top and the "Wednesday" underwear worn by JonBenet, the blanket and nightgown found in the wine cellar, and the duct tape found in the cellar which John reported to have removed from JonBenet's mouth. CBI Agent Kathren Dressel, a DNA and serological testing expert with 25 years of experience, performed the DNA testing on these items and positively matched the blood to JonBenet."

Premeditated in the sense someone decided to physically assault JonBenet, probably fuelled by anger and rage. There is the outside possibility that it was planned in advance and it all went wrong, resulting in a lethal head injury?

The sexual assault can be explained, the ligature asphyxiation and reulting staging can be explained, even slotted into some kind of sequence, but given the nature of the assault, the head injury seems out of place, i.e. an accident?

The accepted sequence is Sexual Assault, Head Injury, then Asphyxiation, that kind of sequence is normally seen in a psychopathic assault.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Here's the reasons that I can never be BDI -

His voice can be heard on the 911 tape asking "what did you find?". This implies one of two things only, either

He didn't know what they found but knew they'd found something; or
He knew what they'd found because he'd caused it, and was just trying to act innocent.

The first option is easily explained, he overheard the goings on and woke up confused. The second option, where he knows what was found, implies that he originated a coverup himself in front of his own parents.

Bear in mind, this is a child of 9. How likely is he to be a homicidal mastermind capable of manipulating all those around him?

If he did begin the coverup himself, his parents would have believed him in the first instance and called an ambulance for their dying daughter.

It would not even cross an innocent parents mind that one sibling had attacked another and then lied about it. You would immediately be calling an ambulance in a desperate attempt to save your dying daughter. Anyone reading this who has ever had a sick or hurt child knows that child is far, far more important at that moment than the one who's alive and well and bothering you with questions.

The question then becomes, why didn't they call an ambulance?

There is only one logical answer. They were guilty of something.

To me it's like maths, whoever finished her off and completed the staging was the one who hurt her in the first place.

The staging and Burkes question on 911 implies it was NOT Burke.

Another compelling reason why I will never be BDI is the bruising. Jonbenet had bruising to her thighs which implies force. Was he physically big enough to hold her down while assaulting her? I've been faced with a tantruming 3 year old before that it took two people to control, and I'm an adult.

As a victim of brotherly abuse myself, I can assure you that wild horses would not cause Jonbenet to voluntarily submit herself for more pain at her brother's hand. The idea that she was a willing participant in any sexual games is totally unacceptable to me and the bruising indicates noncompliance anyway. Burke was physically unable to cause the smaller injuries, so it logically follows to me, that he didn't cause the major ones either.

There you have it...reasons why I can never accept BDI.

:dunno:

:moo:

I took the ME saying it looked like her right leg had been held open to assault her with something that night before her death. That was when someone was trying to mask the previous sexual assaults.

I think Pasty might of heard JonBenet' scream and caught Burke and her with their pants down and JonBenet out cold. She'd send Burke to his room and he'd lie there and listened to what was happening in the house. That could explain his questions. He'd known he hit her ,but wouldn't of known if her killed her.

Accidents do happen all the time between brothers and sister is very true but why not call for help?

On Forum for Justice someone posted that both Burke and JonBenet were in counseling. Burke had some issue and some of us think he might have Aspergers. They tend to have a short fuse and I bet JonBenet knew which buttons to push. There were three books on John and Pasty's bedroom that Pasty's parents gave Pasty. One was "Why Johnny can't tell Right from Wrong" "The Hurried Child" and there was a dictionary opened to a page that was folded over with the word incest.


So I'm a Burke hit her and Pasty took over. Now why didn't she involve John?

 

[Flatlander]

I'm really enjoying hearing the different ideas and questions you all have. I'm firm RDI and always have been.

From there, I find myself drifting into DocG's camp, at least somewhat. In my opinion, he makes a solid argument about JR writing the note over PR. I have always believed PR wrote that note until I read DocG's theory for the first time in the past week or three.

I, like many, allowed those handwriting experts to lead me down the wrong path called "JR couldn't have written the note." So now I feel like I have at least some closure in regard to the ransom note thanks to DocG. To me, that note is the biggest piece of evidence in this case.

However, one of the things that I often forget is that I've never had access to ALL of the evidence and I'm sure I care about this case so much that I often trick myself into thinking that I have.

I'm a private detective in the Denver metro area and finally visited the Ramsey house a couple weeks ago. It was surreal and I stood there and listened and looked for the longest time. The trees or the wind didn't give me any answers, so that sucked.

Also, I realized I haven't thought much about this case for quite a few years and briefly wondered why. However, I listen to a lot of talk radio to pass time while on surveillance, including Howard Stern, and he recently had on a guest that worked on the Ramsey case under Steve Thomas. The guest wasn't there to discuss the Ramsey case, but it came up and I can't remember the guest's name!

Anyway, he reassured Stern that no one, including the Ramsey family, have been "truly" cleared, regardless of Mary Lacy's letter saying so. It's an unsolved homicide after all. In addition, despite my legal background, I realize that I somehow allowed myself to be brainwashed by that ridiculous move on Lacy's part, i.e. her announcement probably means no RDI!

Finally, despite there being no physical evidence that I know about to put BR in the wine cellar, in contact with the body, and so on, I still can't help but think that such BR physical evidence exists, we just don't know about it for obvious reasons, primarily due to BR's status as a minor in 1996.

Despite DocG's and other's opinions to the contrary, I do believe BR could have and probably did swing that flashlight hard enough to cause her skull fracture (yes, I know it was only one hit).

I also still believe BR was molesting JBR, maybe even JR too (not simultaneously and probably just BR in my opinion).

Plus, I keep thinking that BR and JBR were up late playing in the basement with new Christmas toys when they snuck into the wine cellar with the flashlight to sneak-peak at other gifts.

I understand that there was a light in that wine cellar room, but maybe BR didn't want to use it because he might be caught in there easier, therefore the need for the flashlight.

I suspect things turned violent in that room, i.e. BR maybe smashed her on the head because she threatened to tell on him about something as innocent as looking at his soon-to-come birthday presents stashed in there. Pure speculation, I know, and, if BR was the striker, regardless of the circumstance, I don't believe BR meant to kill her with that head strike.

Is there general consensus regarding which room the head fracture occurred? Again, maybe there's evidence about it that's never been released to the public.

In any event, my thoughts about what transpired next are much foggier, i.e. Did BR prod or trial-and-error choke her with his hands or arms or just some rope out of fear or anger or simply playing around with an unconscious body (no garotte)? Did JR intervene too late and decide to add the garotte staging and more to protect BR with a kidnapping gone wrong scenario. So many questions in my mind, just thinking.

Thanks for listening to me vent and share my opinions too.

I feel that you are spot on with your theories.

Last night I was watching Criminal Investigations with a Criminal profiler brought in. The case was about a woman that had been robbed leaving her business but also had been hit in the face, strangled, raped and then the body moved into her car and lit on fire (Obvious overkill). Why do I mention this you may ask? It became clear that the RDI was staged as a kidnapping .... so why was there such an over kill to JB and her body left at the house, all tucked in nice and neat with her own blanket? Somebody in that house had an HUGH ANGER issue with JB.

After the 911 hang up call on the 23rd, I am sure JB made a statement after another sexual abuse encounter (to her abuser) that she wasn't going to keep quiet anymore. Remember JBr going down and sitting on the steps of the spiral staircase, (a lady friend at the party) came and sat next to JB and asked JB what was wrong? JB said "She didn't feel pretty".

LHP stated that JB was a spoiled brat. "Just go away and leave me alone," JonBenet said when I tried to help her with her boots. Sometimes she acted like A SPOILED BRAT.
"No, don't you answer the door," she'd say when someone went to open it at a luncheon Patsy gave. "I'm answering the door."
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02181999lindapughstorypmpt.htm

So my point is: since there was obviosly no kidnapping; why such an over kill in your opinion?

 

[SapphireSteel]

If Burke had Aspergers then, he certainly doesn't have it now.

He's graduated, got a beautiful girlfriend, a great social life, lots of interests and a fantastic career.

He appears perfectly normal.

:dunno:

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I feel that you are spot on with your theories.

Last night I was watching Criminal Investigations with a Criminal profiler brought in. The case was about a woman that had been robbed leaving her business but also had been hit in the face, strangled, raped and then the body moved into her car and lit on fire (Obvious overkill). Why do I mention this you may ask? It became clear that the RDI was staged as a kidnapping .... so why was there such an over kill to JB and her body left at the house, all tucked in nice and neat with her own blanket? Somebody in that house had an HUGH ANGER issue with JB.

After the 911 hang up call on the 23rd, I am sure JB made a statement after another sexual abuse encounter (to her abuser) that she wasn't going to keep quiet anymore. Remember JBr going down and sitting on the steps of the spiral staircase, (a lady friend at the party) came and sat next to JB and asked JB what was wrong? JB said "She didn't feel pretty".

LHP stated that JB was a spoiled brat. "Just go away and leave me alone," JonBenet said when I tried to help her with her boots. Sometimes she acted like A SPOILED BRAT.
"No, don't you answer the door," she'd say when someone went to open it at a luncheon Patsy gave. "I'm answering the door."
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02181999lindapughstorypmpt.htm

So my point is: since there was obviosly no kidnapping; why such an over kill in your opinion?

Pasty made three after hours calls to Jonbenet's pedi on the evening of Tuesday, December seventeenth.

JonBenet and Pasty had a fight Monday the 23rd over what JonBenet wanted to wear for the gingerbread house party and what Pasty wanted her to wear. JonBenet gave in and wore the blue velvet dress. And then you have a little girl that doesn't feel pretty.

There was another fight on Christmas day over JonBenet wearing a red turtleneck and be dressed like Pasty. She wanted to wear the outfit she had chose at the Gap. It was the one she was found in ..... but Pasty mentions her wearing the red turtleneck to bed that night. It is later found wadded up on JonBenet's bathroom counter. There were pull ups hanging out a drawer. JonBenet had been wearing them since summer, but Pasty had stop using them. It seems that JonBent didn't mind if they were wet or not. She also would call out for people to come wipe her in the bathroom.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

If Burke had Aspergers then, he certainly doesn't have it now.

He's graduated, got a beautiful girlfriend, a great social life, lots of interests and a fantastic career.

He appears perfectly normal.

:dunno:

And a hell of a lot of counseling and intervention. Aspergers is in the Autism spectrum. They are set in their ways. They do not like people touching their things , they have a short fuse and lack empathy for others. Some would call them cold hearted at times. John and Pasty both said Burke was in counseling after JonBenet's death.

One doctor he saw asked about JonBenet and if he knew what had happened to her. He said she'd been taken down to the basement and hit in the head and made a motion of hitting downward two times. it gave he chills.

 

[Katzenmoyer]

Flatlander,

I copied and pasted your question above here: "So my point is: since there was obviosly no kidnapping; why such an over kill in your opinion?"

In my opinion, regardless of which room(s) were involved and the sequence of events, my gut tells me that ALL of this violence, including the chronic molestation and the use of a garotte, was a reflection of just how angry and marginalized BR felt in the family dynamic.

In short, PR appeared to live vicariously through JBR and JR appeared to be an absent father to BR and JBR because he was addicted to work. BR likely felt invisible to his parents and mostly resented JBR since she was the only other young child in the home that was competing for and winning PR's attention.

I know it's difficult for many to imagine a scenario or a world where any child would engage in such violence. I can respect that. After all, that level of child-on-child violence is about as dark as it gets.

Again, it's just my gut feeling.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Flatlander,

I copied and pasted your question above here: "So my point is: since there was obviosly no kidnapping; why such an over kill in your opinion?"

In my opinion, regardless of which room(s) were involved and the sequence of events, my gut tells me that ALL of this violence, including the chronic molestation and the use of a garotte, was a reflection of just how angry and marginalized BR felt in the family dynamic.

In short, PR appeared to live vicariously through JBR and JR appeared to be an absent father to BR and JBR because he was addicted to work. BR likely felt invisible to his parents and mostly resented JBR since she was the only other young child in the home that was competing for and winning PR's attention.

I know it's difficult for many to imagine a scenario or a world where any child would engage in such violence. I can respect that. After all, that level of child-on-child violence is about as dark as it gets.

Again, it's just my gut feeling.

Burke had Pasty's attention until JonBenet started school. Then Pasty turned her full attention on JonBenet. Burke also had bed wetting issues and he stopped when she did.

Pasty, and her sister Pam had both been in the Ms America beauty pageants, and both of them losing the crown. JonBenet was going to be their next Ms. America. Pasty's mother, Nedra Paugh, said you had to start them young for the pageants and when asked what if JonBenet didn't want to be in the pageants Nedra said" we'll say JonBenet you will do it". Nedra also made a remark about the size of Burkes penis.

JonBenet pageant costumes grew more risque. Her mother once dressed her like Las Vegas showgirl. In that photo you can see the bruises on her arms. Another time Pasty had her in bright red lipstick and dressed like Marylin Monroe. Steve Thomas thought that the injuries to JonBenet vagina were caused by a rough clean up by Pasty. The housekeeper said that JonBenet would scream and cry when Pasty took her to the bathroom.