Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

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While Terri Horman has said she was in certain locations, investigators have placed her elsewhere using bank card records and cell phone pings, according to sources.
Thank you for providing the links.
It appears this statement wasn't made directly by investigators, but a third, unnamed party. I truly appreciate you taking the time to help a fellow poster out. Thanks!
 
No, it's definitely the Terri-did-it scenarios that are contrived.

A and B only work in isolation, since the bioparents and the school are quite capable of talking to each other. I see no need for the F250; it might be needed for the science project, but it wouldn't be needed for Kyron.

See, now it gets contrived again. Only Kaine and Desiree are meant to believe Kyron was at the school, but the jacket and backpack were left there, so we have to come up with an excuse for them to have remained. And if she wanted the school to believe she took Kyron to an appointment, why bother avoiding a disturbance? They already know she's taking him!

Like signing him out? Which she didn't do? And which the school never bothered to confirm?

Do you actually believe an email exists? It just doesn't make the slightest amount of sense. If it did exist, Terri would have been indicted in 2010.

It's telling, I think, how words are used to paint normal actions as sinister. "Busy bee", "barely a second unaccounted for", "forcing an 18-month-old child to accompany her", "in and out of vehicles". Yet, there are plenty of parents who can testify to doing all of this on a perfectly normal day. About the worst thing you can say here is that Terri didn't procrastinate - and of course, not even that is true, since she stopped to chat with an acquaintance at one store, but then even that gets turned sinister by some.

As with the baby-soothing driving, the parking is also something that many parents, even in this forum have admitted to. Terri drove an unfamiliar car, bigger than her usual. So she parked further from the other parked cars to avoid scraping (or getting scraped by) other cars. Unless she worked as mall security, she would have no idea what the surveillance cameras saw or not. But even with the distant parking and the potential camera-shyness, it was a parking lot, and Terri left her truck alone and unattended. Being far from the store doesn't matter if other cars pass by on their way in and out of the lot, and anyone could spot a live Kyron in the truck.

Again, word choice. She "refused" to account for the time, except she actually did (as you say in your parenthesis).

Well, first, we don't know exactly what Terri told the police about her backroad driving, nor how detailed they wanted her to make it. Second, she signed in at the gym at 11:39. That the time is detailed to the minute should give that away. The only other such time is 9:12, and that was from a written receipt. Anywhere else it's 8:45, 9:30, 10:10, 11:20, etc.

It's not the only thing Desiree is wrong about. Generally, after having read the book, I don't think Desiree always understood what the police told her, or she was far to eager to interpret every shred of information from a guilt-centric perspective. This is the woman who went to the police the evening of Kyron's disappearance and told them she believed Terri was involved, based on faulty information.

Again, how could that have possibly happened if there was an email???

I'm happy you mentioned Ted Bundy's hobbies, since I very much believe that is what happened. A well-dressed adult entered the open and unmonitored school with the other guests, walking around calmly and confidently, acting as if he belonged, then asked a helpful young boy if he could help him get something from his car. Then drove far away with Kyron in his car, not caring one bit when the alarm was sounded.

And like Ted Bundy, they didn't know who he was and where he lived, and he had no reason to ever come back. Thus, there was no way of tracing his movements. Unlike Terri, he had all the time in the world to do what he wanted to, far away from any witnesses.

Would this be actual or alleged?

So, the backroad area where she said she was driving.

What would those bank transactions possibly be? And where does that information come from?

I would suggest the "area of interest" was that because she told them she was in the area and they were by then suffering from tunnel vision.

Or it's another case of Desiree fudging the truth in the Morris book.

The coffee was at the first Fred Meyer, the dry cleaners was at the second. Neither would require much in the way of driving.

But it would still be visible to anyone driving past, which they would do in the parking lot of a large store.

Which she would have had no time or place to actually do.

Going down the route of "sold" or "buyer" leaves us in the realm of fiction.

Yeah, but it should be plausible, I think. The scenarios needed for Terri to be guilty are incredibly contrived. She either has to kill Kyron in a public place, in full view of the road, the church and the entrance to the parking lot, or she has to have him alive in the truck at three public places, not to mention the road between them. She has to have made the bioparents believe Kyron was at school, but she also have to have the school believe he was with her (which doesn't make sense in itself - why would she concoct a story that explicitely puts her and Kyron together?).

I wouldn't call "in full view of a road and a church" "amazingly private".

The witnesses are attested to by Desiree alone. What I find fascinating is that she identifies those witnesses in the book, but neither her nor Morris appears to have actually talked to them.

No, it's perfectly explainable. She drove around with her daughter trying to get her to sleep in the truck. It's not something she can confirm, by the very nature of her locations, but she did explain it.

Think about it. Let's say you decide to go for a walk on a trail in a forested area, like thousands of people do daily. You take about an hour to do so, and during that time a murder occurs within walking distance of the forest. Now, you can say that you can't prove you were on the trail the whole time. That's valid. But you can't say that you "refuse to account for" it or that it is "unexplainable". People, including you and me, do things every day that can't be confirmed. It doesn't make them suspicious in and of itself.

Of course she thought that. Kyron was marked absent at 10. She left the school just before 9. It had to have happened between those times. And how was she to know when the school marked him as absent? They should have done that at 8:45. Given the sloppiness of the teacher, they may well have waited until the afternoon, so how was Terri to know how long she needed to make her alibi?

The polygraphs do not justify speculation - we might as well do a tarot reading. But law enforcement does seem to put weight on them, which just goes to show how unfit they were to handle this.

There won't be. The evidence was presented before a grand jury, and they didn't indict. When (hopefully not if) Kyron is found, she will likely join the ranks of Lindy Chamberlain, Joanne Lees, Timothy Da'Shaun Taylor, Faith Hedgepeth's roommate, Isabel Celis's father, Samantha Koenig's father, Jacob Wetterling's neighbour, Amanda Knox and many more who the public were convinced were guilty either by their behaviour or because LE said so, but were ultimately shown to be innocent.

It's telling that they haven't been able to get an indictment against her after twelve years. Getting an indictment is the easy part!

Why do we assume it was Terri's car? By the time those pictures were released, they had already asked the public to specifically look for Terri's car, not just any white car. Of course the public will think any white truck they saw that morning was Terri's. Not to mention this being before the groundskeeper came forward (and he also drove a white truck).

Or she was at the far end of the property working, like she was supposed to, from 11:30 to 13:00, not hearing the call for lunch. Also, if she was involved and had a burner phone, then moving in with Terri shortly after and getting new burner phones along with a third, innocent party would be extremely irrational.

Yeah, the reason being that they had nothing. Terri had a solid timeline with no room for an abduction that didn't involve parading Kyron through public places. Their sting operation had failed. They had no witnesses, no evidence.

Desperation is the reason.

But she did come forward. She did cooperate. She was interviewed by the police multiple times in 2010. The only thing she didn't do was take a polygraph (again, voodoo science, so good on her). She told them the truth, that she wasn't involved and didn't think Terri was. They claimed they didn't believe her. What was she supposed to do then?

She won't be charged, since they have no evidence against her. She never forced LE to do anything. She was summoned before the grand jury in 2010, but they didn't ask her anything. The police could have done that at any point until 2013, but chose not to. In 2013 she testified before the grand jury, and that was that. If you want to blame anyone, blame LE.

I doubt the FBI administered any polygraph. And in the year of 2010, the FBI certainly had no objections to female killers. But their profile in this case is more than likely a correct one.
Tldr. I have never heard the expression "... guilt-centric perspective". ?
 
While Kyron and Desiree and Kaine are always in my thoughts and I pray for the best, I believe it would be very easy to murder a little boy inside a vehicle. It's not as if Kyron had to be sitting up on his booster seat visible through a window. And as far as who would cover for someone murdering an innocent child, imo a sicko, a lover, a participant in it, someone paid to do it etc. Several possibilities imo.
 
the cruelty is beyond anything I can grasp..such a tender age for a child. has there been a case (other than parental abduction) where a predator went inside a school to steal a child? I can't think of one can you?

I feel like she either beat him and strangled him or she drugged him and drove around until he stopped breathing
and then she put him somewhere maybe even somewhere she had prepared prior.

another Casey Anthony type of woman. hope she doesn't get off like Casey Anthony.
 
the cruelty is beyond anything I can grasp..such a tender age for a child. has there been a case (other than parental abduction) where a predator went inside a school to steal a child? I can't think of one can you?

I feel like she either beat him and strangled him or she drugged him and drove around until he stopped breathing
and then she put him somewhere maybe even somewhere she had prepared prior.

another Casey Anthony type of woman. hope she doesn't get off like Casey Anthony.
There's a subforum in this thread devoted to school abductions.

 
the cruelty is beyond anything I can grasp..such a tender age for a child. has there been a case (other than parental abduction) where a predator went inside a school to steal a child? I can't think of one can you?

I feel like she either beat him and strangled him or she drugged him and drove around until he stopped breathing
and then she put him somewhere maybe even somewhere she had prepared prior.

another Casey Anthony type of woman. hope she doesn't get off like Casey Anthony.
I refuse to believe she will ever get off. No way. Not as long as Desiree is alive. Jmo.
 
If they had enough probable cause to arrest her, they would have arrested her. If they had undisputable information that she was deceptive about a doctor's appointment (i.e. the email), they would have arrested her. If they had real witnesses that saw them leave together, they would have arrested her.

If they had any of the above, the investigation would have looked very different.

They don't have that. Desiree might wish they had, but they don't. That's actual evidence that Terri removed Kyron from the school. If they have that they could have put a lot more pressure on Terri, instead of the sad little fishing expeditions they did.

Again, if they had that evidence, the investigation would have been very different.

Quote: In court documents, the boy's father Kaine Horman stated police had provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance, plotted to have Kaine killed, and was having a sexual affair.

Quote: "I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010. I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me,'' Kaine Horman wrote in his petition. "The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."
 
Quote: In court documents, the boy's father Kaine Horman stated police had provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance, plotted to have Kaine killed, and was having a sexual affair.

Quote: "I believe respondent is involved in the disappearance of my son Kyron who has been missing since June 4, 2010. I also recently learned that respondent attempted to hire someone to murder me,'' Kaine Horman wrote in his petition. "The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true."
Probable cause is needed for indictment. LE have presented their evidence to a grand jury in 2010 and 2013 (as far as we know), and in twelve years they have not gotten the grand jury to indict, neither for the abduction nor for the hired murder attempt. I do believe whatever the MCSO or Kaine believes, what they have is not at the level of probable cause. My guess, much below that level.
 
Probable cause is needed for indictment. LE have presented their evidence to a grand jury in 2010 and 2013 (as far as we know), and in twelve years they have not gotten the grand jury to indict, neither for the abduction nor for the hired murder attempt. I do believe whatever the MCSO or Kaine believes, what they have is not at the level of probable cause. My guess, much below that level.

Quote: Grand jury hearings are closed to the media and to the public. The secret panel can bring criminal charges or help collect information.
 
Quote: Grand jury hearings are closed to the media and to the public. The secret panel can bring criminal charges or help collect information.
For twelve years? Edit: they have to apply for extensions for the grand jury. Generally, they're not supposed to last more than a few months. The last time I heard an extension was granted was for 2013. I have never found any info about a grand jury empaneled for over a decade.
 
For twelve years? Edit: they have to apply for extensions for the grand jury. Generally, they're not supposed to last more than a few months. The last time I heard an extension was granted was for 2013. I have never found any info about a grand jury empaneled for over a decade.
The last MSM article (s) I could find about a grand jury sitting for Kyron's case was dated 2017, and claimed the grand jury was still empaneled to take evidence at that time, if I'm reading this correctly. Not sure about the status of a grand jury today/now, though.

 
The last MSM article (s) I could find about a grand jury sitting for Kyron's case was dated 2017, and claimed the grand jury was still empaneled to take evidence at that time, if I'm reading this correctly. Not sure about the status of a grand jury today/now, though.

Thank you! That's interesting. I must say, if the grand jury is still hearing evidence in 2017, it certainly doesn't sound like they have probable cause.
 
Thank you! That's interesting. I must say, if the grand jury is still hearing evidence in 2017, it certainly doesn't sound like they have probable cause.
Would it be the same people all this time or would they select a new jury every time they sit (don't know all the correct terms here, sorry)? Do you know? The way it works here is you serve on the grand jury for a year and meet once a month during that year to hear cases. Not sure about other states.
 
Would it be the same people all this time or would they select a new jury every time they sit (don't know all the correct terms here, sorry)? Do you know? The way it works here is you serve on the grand jury for a year and meet once a month during that year to hear cases. Not sure about other states.
I'm no expert, but I've tried to find any occurrence of a grand jury empaneled for a decade, and came up empty. I don't see how it could be the same people in 2017 as in 2010.
 
I'm no expert, but I've tried to find any occurrence of a grand jury empaneled for a decade, and came up empty. I don't see how it could be the same people in 2017 as in 2010.
You're right, that doesn't seem like it would be.
 
Would it be the same people all this time or would they select a new jury every time they sit (don't know all the correct terms here, sorry)? Do you know? The way it works here is you serve on the grand jury for a year and meet once a month during that year to hear cases. Not sure about other states.
When I served on a grand jury in Maryland we meet once a month for six months.
 
Thank you! That's interesting. I must say, if the grand jury is still hearing evidence in 2017, it certainly doesn't sound like they have probable cause.
Since everything is secret and unknown to us, I don't draw that conclusion. I'm encouraged that they were still meeting seven years after Kyron's disappearance. And as far as we know, they could have met since then.

In the Kristin Smart case, Paul Flores was a known suspect for neary 25 years before he was arrested.

In the Deorr Kunz Jr. case, the parents have been named suspects for seven years; no arrests.

At trial, it's not about what's true, it's about what can be proven.

Terri did a good job of covering up her crime. I guess that's damning with faint praise.
 
The school groundskeeper. There seems to be a fondness for groundskeepers.

Yes, he drove a white F150, IIRC. He also had a big open trailer hitched to the back of it hauling his lawn care equipment.

He rather conveniently inserted himself into the case.

RBBM

Yes, he absolutely did. As well as Wendy F, TP’s grandmother and neighbor/friend of TMH. After she was specifically asked by FBI investigators not to speak publicly to the media about the case, she went ahead and did so anyway.
JMO

 
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