Let's talk about the letters

[PAXIMUS]

Thank you. I have been trying to explain that there are direct ties to Oak Beach but nobody wants to take the mob connection seriously (many of the members here actually mocked me by saying that the mob has been dead for the past 20 years???)

What is the alleged motive for mob involvement here. The mob is in business to make money and that is it, they dont do things that jeopardize that objective so I really dont see how killing prostitutes and hookers and then calling and taunting their family in a sadistic manner would be good for business.


The mob is certainly not dead but I dont think they have added sexual sadism to their list of business activities. Beside that, if these were mob hits they were done in a very sloppy manner which would be very uncharacteristic of the professional hit men/button guys the mob employs. Unless they are killing a riva family member, in which case they want the body found to make a statement, it is very unusual that a person killed by the mob would be found, skeletal or otherwise.

While I certainly appreciate your willingness to think outside of the box here and I would never mock anyone for doing that, I just really dont see a possible mob connection here. This killer, in my opinion, has mommy issues, hates women, prostitutes in particular and knows he will likely get away with his crimes because LEO doesnt commit the resources to cases involving hookers and murder that they would if the victims were something other than such.


Speculation about the good doctor is also interesting but again I am just not feeling it, I dont see why a killer such as this would be interested in disposing of his prey so close to home and them voluntarily calling the kind of attention to himself that he has recently.


The one thing that has piqued my interest is the possibility of these victims being used for purposes of making snuff films, I suppose that is one possible angle that could be used to argue a mob connection since the sale of such films is a big money business in the black market and although in all my years of studying the Mafia (it is an interest/hobby of mine) I have never heard of them being involved in such things, times do change and it is possible they are now involved in such, as there was once a time back when Mr. Bonanno was in charge of the most powerful crime families in New York, where the Mob would not even consider trafficking in narcotics as they felt at the time they were above such filth, yet today, they are probably one of the largest distributors of illegal narcotics in the US. So yea, the possibility of these victims being used in the production of snuff films is something I have considered and that may or may not point to the mob, yet it could just as easily point to an enclave of wealthy and very sick and twisted perverts living in Long Island. It is just a guess and I have no evidence to support it but it is something I think would be worth looking in to especially in light of SG's comments "They are going to get me, they are going to kill me...." It is clear she used the word they and this points to some sort of collusion between two or more people to do some sort of harm to her (and others?) perhaps.

As I have stated previously the most important question in this case is why did SG run away from Pak, it seems logical that she would have run TO HIM if she were in danger as it was his job to protect her from such, but if reports of her running AWAY from him are true then this really raises some very interesting questions.


Comments appreciated.

 

[jimmydo]

What is the alleged motive for mob involvement here. The mob is in business to make money and that is it, they dont do things that jeopardize that objective so I really dont see how killing prostitutes and hookers and then calling and taunting their family in a sadistic manner would be good for business.

No one has said the so-called 'mob' killed any of the LISK victims.

The ties between these murders and organized crime are found in prostitution and the thriving top secret sex slave trade.
People do procure these women so organized crime can put these women into the sex slave pipeline.

I'm not saying snuff films were being made in OB, although it's possible.

However, I do suspect that a group of people in that OB neighborhood are involved with procuring women who are going to end up sex slaves. I think this killer enjoys sampling the forbidden fruit, for lack of a better description. Things got out of hand because SG realized she was going to be sent into the sex slave pipeline (or an actual snuff film as the case may be), which are all controlled by organized crime. These are NOT the deeds of average people, and knowing the control organized crime has on prostitution, we can surmise they have control over all aspects of prostitution, including the sex slave trade. If you can't follow this logic, then by any means explain which aspect we should disregard because the ties between organized crime and prostitution are undeniable. The natural progression of prostitution is buying and selling women to introduce into the sex slave trade. The sex slave trade is where you will find those who trade in snuff films. I further suspect a certain few of these women who are introduced into the sex slave pipeline ultimately end up in snuff films, which may or may not be the case with SG.
Case in point? Just look at her driver, MP. He is a convicted human trafficker. He tried to bring a Chinese woman into the US using a fake passport.

This killer has a taste for sex slaves, which began with a passing interest which grew into participation, in the same manner a drug addict needs more and more to satisfy their craving. As anyone who buys anything will do, they try out their new or prospective purchase, only SG discovered what they intended to do BEFORE they could actually do it.

 

[minazoe]

yes I have long thought that MP might have arranged long term employment or a snuff film for SG.

taking her off her turf at such a late hour puts her out of her element and destabilizes her, perhaps JB was actually looking to buy Shannan.

it is possible.

also I had an image in my mind of JB holding Shannan with his arms around her upper body and somehow her pants being removed by MP in an attempt to keep her from running.

what in bloody he- - was going on in that house?

 

[the quiet girl]

A side note here. I read last night that Shannans boots were thigh high leather. Soooo... think about this if she was wearing those running through the marsh. Her jeans wouldn't have been so wet it actually would have been a help. Unless they were high heels and that said Iknow women who can run on the beach sand in heels. I wish we had a picture of these boots she wore and was she wearing them when she ran. Also what happened with her bag of change of clothes?

 

[PAXIMUS]

yes I have long thought that MP might have arranged long term employment or a snuff film for SG.

taking her off her turf at such a late hour puts her out of her element and destabilizes her, perhaps JB was actually looking to buy Shannan.

it is possible.

also I had an image in my mind of JB holding Shannan with his arms around her upper body and somehow her pants being removed by MP in an attempt to keep her from running.

what in bloody he- - was going on in that house?

How much investigation did the police perform on what went on in that house that night and what JB and MP's involvement may be, that is what I want to know.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

How much investigation did the police perform on what went on in that house that night and what JB and MP's involvement may be, that is what I want to know.

If memory serves, LE didn't even search the house or JB's vehicle until MONTHS after the fact.

 

[minazoe]

I always thought/heard that snuff films were kind of a myth. That no one actually has ever really seen one except in cases of serial killing...

well... enough said, I guess.

 

[Claudette]

I always thought/heard that snuff films were kind of a myth. That no one actually has ever really seen one except in cases of serial killing...

well... enough said, I guess.

I've heard that too. Studied it briefly in college, there was some movie in the 60s or 70s that claimed to be one, it was royally effed up, but it turned out to be fake. I believe that film was the one to start the "idea" of snuff films.

But no there are no published snuff films. However, I wonder if this has changed with the use of the internet? I took this class about 5 years ago but internet use has increased since then.

 

[Sillybilly]

I've heard that too. Studied it briefly in college, there was some movie in the 60s or 70s that claimed to be one, it was royally effed up, but it turned out to be fake. I believe that film was the one to start the "idea" of snuff films.

But no there are no published snuff films. However, I wonder if this has changed with the use of the internet? I took this class about 5 years ago but internet use has increased since then.

When we have men raping 18 month old babies online, I don't think it's any big leap to assume we probably have snuff filming online.

 

[jimmydo]

I always thought/heard that snuff films were kind of a myth. That no one actually has ever really seen one...

I suppose it's much easier to exist in the imagined comfort zone created within the mind. However, REALITY is much different place.

For those who do not believe snuff films exist, I'll give you a couple of names:
Kenneth Anger and Hunter S. Thompson.

There are also alleged ties to another film maker and snuff films:
Walter Elias Disney. YES, you read the name right.

There is allegedly another semi-well-known snuff film, made at Bohemian Grove.

If you want to search for the ties, just enter any of the mentioned names and include the snuff film tag, ie: Kenneth Anger snuff films, Hunter S. Thompson snuff films etc...

http://www.pw.org/content/memory_hunter_s_thompson_postcard_louisville_kentucky
Talking about Hunter S. Thompson: "Other times I witnessed his atavistic side. Despite the rumors that followed me home when I left, he never held a gun to my head or laid a finger on me, but that’s not to say he didn’t throw a tantrum or two. Paranoid, he would lock everyone out of his cabin for hours at a time, intermittently setting off his alarm and firing guns into the air. One time I watched him beat his car because his cigarettes were locked inside, and another time he threw me out of the house for refusing to watch a snuff film."

So, you can dream on, comfortable in the reality you create in your mind, or you can open your mind to the true cold hard reality. The choice is yours.

More shocking and appalling snuff film related information is found in the following article:
The Pedophocracy.

The Pedophocracy series of articles can be found at scribd.com

I want to add maybe it's far better to exist within the comfort zones created in the mind, as reality is sometimes too hard, too cold, too real.

:worms:

 

[jimmydo]

I posted the following comment on a different LISK-related thread. I thought it would be both interesting and informative to share it on this thread too.

How and where did the concept of 'serial killer' begin?

To me, the whole Long Island Serial Killer case has a 'ritualistic' feel to it, with certain cultish overtones as well.
I suspect those rituals are human trafficking and child *advertiser censored*, right up to and including the darkest and most evil form of both: snuff.

Let's look at some clues to the origin of the serial killer, and see if we can find other ties, to other similar cases and killers. One of them: Son of Sam. The ties are there, but they have to be searched out.

I'm not a fan of Alex J., but I share the link due to so much of the background information being there, as well as links to tie those events to the east coast chapter, Untermyer Park.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index....topic=93940.40

Church of the Final Judgment
In the thread above, we find ties to Charles Manson, and the so-called 'church'. There are also ties between the so-called 'church' and the SOS murders and Long Island.
That being, ties between Untermyer Park and Laurel Canyon. Untermyer Park being the east coast chapter, Laurel Canyon being the west coast chapter.

http://www.forteantimes.com/features...on_of_sam.html

Some insight and background information into the roots of this (and other) notorious serial murderers, taking us right back to the question: Where and how did the concept of 'serial killers' begin.

http://labyrinth13.com/Labyrinth13.pdf

This is a free PDF book.
If you're not comfortable using the link, enter 'Labyrinth 13 PDF' into your preferred search engine.

This killer and murders are not accidental.
There is method to this madness.

http://www.laweekly.com/2009-07-23/a...inal-judgment/

This is another related book, but you'll have to become a member and upload a file to gain access to the download, or simply read the book online without downloading it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48609819/The-Ultimate-Evil

The Godsmack 'love hate sex pain' song closely mirrors the L.A.Weekly article titled 'love-sex-fear-death' don't you think? It seems to be a giant viscous circle, both feeding and feeding on the initiate and unsuspecting alike.

 

[minazoe]

It's interesting that you mention Hunter S. T...I forgot all about that story....was it in VF or mentioned there? I think so...anyway, interesting because MP makes a reference to Fear and Loathing in LV that we all found a little odd and not quite believable.

just odd.

 

[EllaMae]

I read that book Ultimate Evil, and I found it to be terrifying. I had nightmares after I read it.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

After wondering if the letters attributed to the doctor would be admissible in court, I decided to ask a few of the WS verified lawyers their opinions on that very question. I just heard back from one of them. Here is what "Katprint" had to say:

**Respectfully Quoted with Katprint's Permission**

"Even if the letters are properly authenticated, the letters are classic "hearsay" i.e. an out of court statement offered to prove the truth of a particular fact. Hearsay is generally inadmissible unless it falls into certain legal categories considered exceptions to hearsay or non-hearsay."

"One potential exception to hearsay category is statements by a party, which are offered by the opposing party. So, if Dr. Hackett were charged with the murder of Shanna Gilbert, the prosecution could offer the letters if any part of the letters were relevant to a disputed issue. For example, if other evidence proved that Dr. Hackett had in fact met Shanna Gilbert prior to her disappearance then Dr. Hackett's denial of having met Shanna Gilbert might be interpreted as evidence of a guilty state of mind. Dr. Hackett could not offer his own letters in lieu of testifying or to buttress his testimony."

"If somebody else were charged with the murder of Shanna Gilbert, Dr. Hackett's letters would not be admissible. They do not fall within other categories of exceptions to hearsay/non-hearsay such as business records, statements against interest (by anybody, not just a party), former testimony, dying declaration, etc."


**** Many Thanks to Katprint for Allowing Us to Benefit from Her Legal Expertise! ****

 

[fred&edna]

Going back off-topic... the mention of Kenneth Anger, films, etc, reminded me of the article I read about Roy Radin. Drug/sex-filled parties at Radin's Southampton home, including video-taping. Somehow the story from the 80's about MHaller (playmate/actress) seems very familiar...

http://books.google.com/books?id=cOUCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=melonie+haller+roy+radin&source=bl&ots=IRKZbAgCUH&sig=g-x8KCEv2PNRQ2nOpNN7CDgYLIc&hl=en&ei=e5a3S5vgPIKgsgODqJnpDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=melonie%20haller%20roy%20radin&f=true

PS Sorry if this has been mentioned before

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Here is a different take on the doc's letters from WS verified attorney chinacat67:

**Respectfully Quoted with chinacat67's Permission**

"Assuming the letters could be authenticated and we are talking about the doctor as the defendant, I think the only way they could be used would be to impeach his character and testimony if he took the stand. So it could be used to show he has lied or misdirected or given conflicting stories, but only in the context of his testimony, in all probability. And I would hazard most defense attorneys would advocate strongly that he not take the stand...."

"On the other hand, of course, the police and investigators can absolutely use those in their investigation---there is nothing wrong with them as "clues" as opposed to "evidence" if that makes sense."

"BTW, my expertise is in tax work and estate planning, so I have dealt with lots and lots of doctors and I have NEVER met such an uneducated sounding one as represented in those letters---that is what really intrigues me----who the heck is this guy and how on earth did he get through school to become a DO?"

"Additionally, though uneducated sounding, the letters are clearly specifically parsed and worded---like an attorney pal assisted or reviewed slightly."


**Per chinacat67, Please be advised that the opinion offered here is "an educated opinion but still an opinion!"**


****Big Thanks to chinacat67 for Sharing His/Her Legal Expertise on the Letters!****

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Here is an additional opinion regarding the admissibility of the letters attributed to the doctor from WS verified attorney all4justice:

**Respectfully Quoted with all4justice's Permission**

"Keeping in mind that I’m not licensed to practice law in New York, and that I’m not a criminal attorney, and therefore, cannot offer legal advice, the following are my thoughts on the potential admissibility of the letters from Dr. Hackett:"

"Hearsay law in New York generally mirrors the Federal Rules of Evidence so the out of court statements cannot be admitted to prove the truth of the matter asserted unless they fall within one or more exceptions to the hearsay rule. http://www.law.syr.edu/Pdfs/0NY EVIDENCE LAW 2006 UPDATED.pdf See p.12. Applying the general rule to this case, unless those letters meet one of the hearsay exceptions, they can’t be admitted to prove that Dr. Hackett actually called Shannan Gilbert’s sister and mother. There are numerous exceptions to the hearsay rule though so if the prosecutor needs those letters to support her case, she will try to shoehorn the letters into one of the exceptions in order to get them admitted into evidence. I’m providing a link to the hearsay rule and its exceptions for your convenience http://www.drtomoconnor.com/3020/3020lect07.htm. Looking at this list, it appears that Dr. Hackett’s letters could be construed as “statements against penal interest.” If the judge deemed them to be such, or found that they qualified as one of the other hearsay exceptions, they would likely be admitted as evidence."

"That being said, even though Dr. Hackett hasn’t been named publicly as a person of interest or suspect, my guess is that he’s probably been, or being investigated by the authorities. They may be able to use the existence of the letters as the basis for a search warrant to obtain his phone records so they can investigate him further. Again, these are just my thoughts on the case, and should not be construed as legal advice."



****Thanks So Much all4justice for Lending Us Your Legal Expertise!!****

 

[Flukeyou]

Sounds like he was high on opiates IMO

 

[LINative13]

Vicodin does not equal serial killer. It may help you become a junky but not a serial killer.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

Vicodin does not equal serial killer. It may help you become a junky but not a serial killer.

But it may help a serial killer to become careless. IMO