Lies point us to the truth #2

[Eddie99]

Thank you, Rain.

This pineapple business has really blown up!

I just hope they solve this thing somehow.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Thank you, Rain.

This pineapple business has really blown up!

I just hope they solve this thing somehow.

Eddie99,

Your most welcome.

 

[anonymiss]

I know I am new to this discussion but I don't understand why anyone thinks she was killed at the house. It is much more logical she was killed somewhere else and they brought the dead girl home to stage the scene. The oversized panties which PR probably did buy, for another child, a child that lived where the real murder happened, were used because that was all that was available and her actual underwear probably were compromised. The fruit was eaten at this party as well. No way a mother puts those on a child without realizing they are the wrong size and JBR was too old for diapers especially considering she was on the pageant circuit.

The whole story reeks of child sex trafficking. My guess is they were at a Christmas party and the children were for sale during it. Probably way more than just their own. One of the perverts killed JBR and they brought her home in the suitcase. They started with convincing the brother she was alive when they came home, coached him. Once they put him down they staged the scene. They called the police before they were really ready because time of death couldn't be allowed to go too long before the police were called. Their helpful friends were all at the Christmas party and were helping screw up the scene because they were involved.

The falling out with the Whites would have to do with things they couldn't say publicly hence the absurd story they give for it. Nothing about the scene of the crime makes sense and adds up if it happened there. And I just don't buy the brother being the prep. He was very young and mostly likely doesn't remember much. Colorado is known in conspiracy circles as being a heavy child sex trafficking spot for elites. The Ramsey's were involved with big time serious people and the whole pageant thing screams that this was a trafficking case.
Before the murder PR and JBR were on a talk show about kids in pageants and even then it was obvious JBR was very disassociated. The parents covered it up because they were guilty, not of the murder but of how the murder happened. They could never tell the truth about any of the real details without screwing themselves big time.

There was a urine stain from JBR found on the basement floor indicating she was killed in the house.

 

[anonymiss]

I know I am new to this discussion but I don't understand why anyone thinks she was killed at the house. It is much more logical she was killed somewhere else and they brought the dead girl home to stage the scene. The oversized panties which PR probably did buy, for another child, a child that lived where the real murder happened, were used because that was all that was available and her actual underwear probably were compromised. The fruit was eaten at this party as well. No way a mother puts those on a child without realizing they are the wrong size and JBR was too old for diapers especially considering she was on the pageant circuit.

The whole story reeks of child sex trafficking. My guess is they were at a Christmas party and the children were for sale during it. Probably way more than just their own. One of the perverts killed JBR and they brought her home in the suitcase. They started with convincing the brother she was alive when they came home, coached him. Once they put him down they staged the scene. They called the police before they were really ready because time of death couldn't be allowed to go too long before the police were called. Their helpful friends were all at the Christmas party and were helping screw up the scene because they were involved.

The falling out with the Whites would have to do with things they couldn't say publicly hence the absurd story they give for it. Nothing about the scene of the crime makes sense and adds up if it happened there. And I just don't buy the brother being the prep. He was very young and mostly likely doesn't remember much. Colorado is known in conspiracy circles as being a heavy child sex trafficking spot for elites. The Ramsey's were involved with big time serious people and the whole pageant thing screams that this was a trafficking case.
Before the murder PR and JBR were on a talk show about kids in pageants and even then it was obvious JBR was very disassociated. The parents covered it up because they were guilty, not of the murder but of how the murder happened. They could never tell the truth about any of the real details without screwing themselves big time.

There was a urine stain from JBR found on the basement floor indicating she was killed in the house.

 

[anonymiss]

There was a urine stain from JBR found on the basement floor indicating she was killed in the house.

@armygirl2319....The tested urine stain is on the carpeting in the basement, some people think the stain suggests JBR was dragged from the carpeted area to the wine cellar, there are photos of the stain on-line.

 

[DrQ]

Thanks to all for keeping the discussion going. Interesting theories. I'm still a IMO believer that she was killed in the house however, I go back and forth on family member versus intruder. In many cases, the simplest solution is the relevant one. The complexity of taking the poor child back home to stage the scene could definitely open them up to many mistakes and forensic possibilities. Pineapple could have been eaten at the party but there was a bowl of pineapple on the counter. Timeframes have varied on how long the pineapple was in eaten. If a family member killed her, someone had to help cover it up. Although B was uniquely different, could he have never slipped up during interviews or for that matter never speaking of it again? That would give two adults to clean up/set up. If it was mom, B could have slept through it and dad helped set up. Speculation has been that mom would get upset over bed wetting. Maybe JB wet the bed and woke mom and mom snapped. Or maybe someone who knew JB, watched her, and planned to visit her came in the house but never left footsteps in the snow. A true head spinner. So IMO today, I lean more toward a family member. Not a clue which one. None of us ever know what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks to all for keeping the discussion going. Interesting theories. I'm still a IMO believer that she was killed in the house however, I go back and forth on family member versus intruder. In many cases, the simplest solution is the relevant one. The complexity of taking the poor child back home to stage the scene could definitely open them up to many mistakes and forensic possibilities. Pineapple could have been eaten at the party but there was a bowl of pineapple on the counter. Timeframes have varied on how long the pineapple was in eaten. If a family member killed her, someone had to help cover it up. Although B was uniquely different, could he have never slipped up during interviews or for that matter never speaking of it again? That would give two adults to clean up/set up. If it was mom, B could have slept through it and dad helped set up. Speculation has been that mom would get upset over bed wetting. Maybe JB wet the bed and woke mom and mom snapped. Or maybe someone who knew JB, watched her, and planned to visit her came in the house but never left footsteps in the snow. A true head spinner. So IMO today, I lean more toward a family member. Not a clue which one. None of us ever know what goes on behind closed doors.

DrQ,

Although B was uniquely different, could he have never slipped up during interviews or for that matter never speaking of it again?

Yet he did slip up, on numerous occassions, e.g. He saw JonBenet walk into the house after the White's party, he slept all night until the following morning when he awoke to a police officer shining a flashlight in his room. Yet his parents admit his voice can be heard on the 911 call, suggesting he was wide awake, then there is his knowledge of the crime-scene details, despite his parents saying they never discussed the case with him, i.e. when BR and DS discussed whether JonBenet had been manually asphyxiated or by ligature, etc, all overheard and reported to BPD by Susan Stine no less, who realized not saying anything meant DS might be implicated.

There are many others, including giving his father an alibi for breaking the basement window.

Understandably he was no professional liar when it came to police interviews.

All of which suggests all three Ramsey's colluded in the postmortem staging of JonBenet.

Many people continue to believe the Ramsey's postmortem version of events is factually correct.

Patently there is a staged crime-scene including a fabricated version of events to back up the former.


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[DrQ]

Yep. Pineapple is a blow up. IMO and other documentary coverage has stated that the pineapple could be one of if not the most crucial piece of evidence and concern in the case. I don't have the answer but I certainly would not discount it if I were one of the investigators. I'm sure we've all had a situation where a tiny detail derailed something. Jumping to conclusions and/or disregarding something or not checking something out could very well be one of the primary reasons this case is still not solved. It's probably a good idea to leave the doors open instead of closing them. Fingers crossed.

 

[UKGuy]

Yep. Pineapple is a blow up. IMO and other documentary coverage has stated that the pineapple could be one of if not the most crucial piece of evidence and concern in the case. I don't have the answer but I certainly would not discount it if I were one of the investigators. I'm sure we've all had a situation where a tiny detail derailed something. Jumping to conclusions and/or disregarding something or not checking something out could very well be one of the primary reasons this case is still not solved. It's probably a good idea to leave the doors open instead of closing them. Fingers crossed.

DrQ,
The pineapple remains found in JonBenet's stomach confirm Burke's claim that JonBenet walked into the house after the White's party, this is why it is so important.

It simply demonstrates that what the parents said about carrying JonBenet from the car, asleep, directly to her bedroom is false.

The bottom line is that all three Ramsey's forgot all about the pineapple, not even cleaning the breakfast bar, despite other areas recieving a cleansing.

This tells you JonBenet made it to her bed after snacking on pineapple along with Burke who enjoyed sipping his tea likely followed her.

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[DrQ]

Thanks UKGuy. Makes it full circle again. So many inconsistent parts to the family narrative.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

DrQ,
The pineapple remains found in JonBenet's stomach confirm Burke's claim that JonBenet walked into the house after the White's party, this is why it is so important.

It simply demonstrates that what the parents said about carrying JonBenet from the car, asleep, directly to her bedroom is false.

The bottom line is that all three Ramsey's forgot all about the pineapple, not even cleaning the breakfast bar, despite other areas recieving a cleansing.

This tells you JonBenet made it to her bed after snacking on pineapple along with Burke who enjoyed sipping his tea likely followed her.

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UKGuy,

Was it Kolar that also brought light to the Tupperware bowl retrieved from her bedroom? The one with fruit cocktail in it?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Was it Kolar that also brought light to the Tupperware bowl retrieved from her bedroom? The one with fruit cocktail in it?

Rain on my Parade,
No, its likely a speculative case factoid. Also its alleged initially when checking over the crime-scene photos investigators thought they were looking at a bowl of cereal? Source - JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case Boulder Police; 2006 documentary by Lawrence Schiller,

Months later another investigator reviewing the same photographs realized he was looking at pineapple not cereal, so he made out a report which Beckner acted on and had both the contents of the bowl and JonBenet's intestine sent to UC for analysis.

The results you already know, e.g. the professors conclusions.

ST Page 193

room, he said, giving us an unlikely alternative. The Tupperware container, never seized, was long gone, and the grainy photo on which he relied was totally inconclusive. I thought the material could have been popcorn, maybe beads, certainly not unrefrigerated pineapple. Perhaps, Smit argued, if she knew the intruder, he might have fed her. "Maybe Santa," he ventured.

From Woodward's book page 154:

The exact material in JonBenet’s stomach and intestines was first discussed with experts at the University of Colorado on October 15, 1997 (BPD Report # 1-1156), more than ten months after JonBenet was killed. Their reports about the contents of her stomach/proximal area were given to the Boulder Police Department more than a year later in January of 1998, (BPD Report #1-1349) one year after JonBenet’s death. And that’s when the mystery deepened and the misconception about what JonBenet actually ate was discovered.

According to previously unreleased BPD reports, laboratory testing revealed that JonBenet also ate cherries and grapes as well as pineapple. Remnants of cherries were found in the stomach/proximal area of her small intestine. “Another item besides pineapple was cherries.” (BPD Report #1-1348.) In that same report: “Another item besides pineapple was grapes.” (BPD Report #1-1348.) Another report expands on the grapes, saying “grapes including skin and pulp.” (BPD Report #1-1349)

So Paula Woodward's book makes claims about grapes, cherries, fruit cocktail found in JonBenet's digestive system all on the basis of her privileged private BPD reports.

Put it all together and some like to claim JonBenet snacked fruit from a tupperware container which was left in her bedroom?

Most of the relevant details can be found here:
s-evidence-pineapple.htm

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[Rain on my Parade]

Put it all together and some like to claim JonBenet snacked fruit from a tupperware container which was left in her bedroom?

UKGuy,

Thank you for the link. Apparently it was Lou Smit according to ST:
ST Page 192

"Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?

At lunch we had our sandwiches at that table while trying to convince Lou Smit of the connection between the mother's fingerprints on the bowl and the pineapple remains found in the child's body. He countered that a crime scene photo showed a Tupperware container in a - paper sack in JonBenet's bedroom, and he believed the contents of that plastic bowl might have been pineapple.

Maybe she got up during the night and ate the pineapple in her

ST Page 193

room, he said, giving us an unlikely alternative. The Tupperware container, never seized, was long gone, and the grainy photo on which he relied was totally inconclusive. I thought the material could have been popcorn, maybe beads, certainly not unrefrigerated pineapple. Perhaps, Smit argued, if she knew the intruder, he might have fed her. "Maybe Santa," he ventured.

So, the Tupperware bowl in the sack disappeared apparently?

 

[DeDee]

Rain on my Parade,

So here is Patsy telling BPD that she purchased Day of the Week Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Now if those Bloomingdale's had been size-12's, remember as Patsy stated, JonBenet selected them, then this would mean there were 24 pairs pairs of size-12 Bloomingdales in her underwear drawer.

Yet here is what BPD found:

So a minimum of six pairs found in her underwear drawer would have been size-6 Bloomingdale's purchased on the NY trip.


Assuming Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, why did she not leave the remaining size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer as she was later to claim?

Answer: She never knew about the size-12's, so never knew to fabricate a story.


Well JonBenet knew as she was present when they were purchased.

James Kolar in his Book says BR stated in some interview that he visited the basement on Christmas Day afternoon. Probably searching for more gifts?

Best candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's is Burke, both parents would have known the size-12's were a staging red flag, not so an impulsive, materialistic boy, for whom pants would just be pants, except they both had Wednesday on them?

"So a minimum of six pairs found in her underwear drawer would have been size-6 Bloomingdale's purchased on the NY trip."

Patsy is intentionally vague during the questioning about the Bloomingdale's undies for a reason. The topic is sensitive to her.

Besides, how could there be 6 pairs of those Days of the Week panties in her drawer in a size 6? They came in a container of 5 panties, M-F.

I think the size 12's were purchased for Patsy's niece. They were previously gift wrapped (by the store and shipped to their home address along with the other Bloomingdale's gifts, if I recall correctly). The package was in the basement. However, it has been said that Burke went through the basement opening gifts in hopes of finding his birthday presents.

The package of size 12s were opened by the killer on the night of the crime. Only one person knew they were in the basement: Patsy. Then, the Wednesday pair were placed on JBR even though they were far too large for her.

I recall the store did not have size 6 at all. JBR was disappointed. Patsy purchased one container of the size 12s for her niece. A size 12 would not fit her daughter even if she was wearing a diaper without falling down to her knees.

Many years later, the Ramsey's would 'find' the remaining size 12s while unpacking in ATL. I don't recall who they sent them to, att.

Numerous pairs of girls underwear were taken under the search warrants but they're not described in any way. The ridiculously too large panties JBR was wearing were described as being of floral print.
crimescene-inventory.htm

 

[DeDee]

Is it possible that BR went into the basement to look for his birthday gifts? Was there a present he wanted for Xmas that he didn’t get, and wanted to know if it’s wrapped up for birthday? In doing so he unwraps size 12 pants (small Xmas gift not given yet), Barbie (some parents give children a present on siblings birthday so they don’t feel left out). JB wakes up, goes to BR bedroom as she sometimes does but he’s not there. She goes to look for him, pops a piece of pineapple in her mouth as she goes past the bowl, then finds him in the basement unwrapping gifts. Tells him he’ll be in trouble when parents find out. RB (who has sneaked down with the flashlight that his dad maybe used earlier putting to bed) and hits her with it. In all the later staging to protect RB the flashlight ends up on the breakfast bar. Parents might not even realise it’s significance until later. There must have been so much panic that night especially given early start with everyone knowing they were flying out early… Just a theory been niggling me, anyone got thoughts on any of it?

"She goes to look for him, pops a piece of pineapple in her mouth as she goes past the bowl, then finds him in the basement unwrapping gifts."

JonBenet would never enter the basement alone. She detested the basement. It scared her.

Maybe bad things happened to her down in that basement but it isn't necessary. It's well-known JonBenet did not like that basement at all which makes it all the more tragic that she died there.
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[Eddie99]

If she had just eaten the pineapple moments before being killed. It wouldn't have been as far along in the digestive process.

Also, I certainly hope I never have to answer questions about underwear sizes, and how many came in a pack.

 

[proust20]

ITA that the significance of the pineapple is that is contradicts the Rs timeline. The exact sequence of events after returning home is less important than the fact that JB consumed it. The extra hair tie also doesn't fit with the family's narrative. The obviousness of the bowl is cause to consider that the pineapple had nothing to do with the violence? Only Burke would have been involved with a fruit snatching incident. If it were important to the motivation of the attack, BR could have disposed of it or, after he told his parents about what had happened with JB, they would have got rid of it? Why didn't BR finish the pineapple with milk and the tea? The autopsy results surprised Patsy. Caught off guard, she resorted to her customary total denial.

BDI has an inherent difficulty with motive. Petty sibling squabbling does not explain the brutality; also the extended timeline of the crime between head blow and asphyxiation is methodical. Needless to add that BR didn't write the RN. When the RN was composed is a major gap in the timeline.

 

[DeDee]

Been wondering ...

... what if Patsy lured her daughter to the table with the promise of pineapple with condensed milk while awaiting, how shall I say, a fictitious visit from Santa.

Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl; not Burke's.

JonBenet could be enjoying the sweet snack while Patsy began writing that rather lengthy ransom letter.

First two words written to Mr Ramsey may have come from a 1995 movie watched at the White's home earlier that evening, "Nick of Time". That is the movie, according to Priscilla's niece, HeatherCox's husband, Bill. Ironically, due to the timing of this post, it stars Johnny Depp.

"Listen carefully!"

Oh, look! Johnny's got an attaché case. And, his daughter has been kidnapped!

.

 

[GarnetScarlett]

If the pineapple were not from the Rs' fridge, then the intruder(s) should have to have brought it with them when they broke into the house with the intention of feeding it to JB before they abducted her from the residence.

IMO neither pineapple snatching nor bed-wetting provide sufficient motive for such a brutal crime.

Well, to be honest, I can't imagine anything on earth that would justify murdering a small child. But it happens, and it happened here. I can never decide about this case--was it a family member or an intruder? I don't know, because both seem impossible. Every fact seems to contradict all the other facts. And yes, that pineapple is driving me crazy, I would love to know how it fits into the timeline. Patsy resolutely denied giving pineapple to JonBenet that night, and she had no reason to lie. (After all it's hardly a crime to give your daughter a nighttime snack!) Yet JonBenet allegedly had eaten pineapple, and Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl...nothing here adds up, and it's maddening!

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Thank you for the link. Apparently it was Lou Smit according to ST:
ST Page 192

"Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?

At lunch we had our sandwiches at that table while trying to convince Lou Smit of the connection between the mother's fingerprints on the bowl and the pineapple remains found in the child's body. He countered that a crime scene photo showed a Tupperware container in a - paper sack in JonBenet's bedroom, and he believed the contents of that plastic bowl might have been pineapple.

Maybe she got up during the night and ate the pineapple in her

ST Page 193

room, he said, giving us an unlikely alternative. The Tupperware container, never seized, was long gone, and the grainy photo on which he relied was totally inconclusive. I thought the material could have been popcorn, maybe beads, certainly not unrefrigerated pineapple. Perhaps, Smit argued, if she knew the intruder, he might have fed her. "Maybe Santa," he ventured.

So, the Tupperware bowl in the sack disappeared apparently?

Rain on my Parade,

So, the Tupperware bowl in the sack disappeared apparently?

Yes, looks like they dumped anything they ruled out of scope.

Same with Holly Smith's crime-scene analysis:

She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom. "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains. With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom. She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor." One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

Note how the red satin box detail has been redacted for public consumption?

The Tupperware bowl lives on as a factoid for those attracted to an IDI theory.

JonBenet snatching some of Burke's pineapple leading to her death is speculation with no evidential support.

Burke and JonBenet had snack after arriving back from the White's party then they headed off to bed.

With Burke and JonBenet sharing a bedroom as they did the night before and confirmed by Patsy.

JonBenet made it to her bedroom and was likely dressed in the same pink pajama set as the night before along with having her hair dressed, see the autopsy report.

At this point the pineapple snack was long forgotten and the breakfast bar never had much relevance for investigators until months later.

So nothing violent ever took place in the breakfast bar on Christmas Night going into the next morning, otherwise it would have been cleaned up.

Just like the size-12's, Patsy never knew about the pineapple snack either, else if it mattered she would have removed any items linked to JonBenet?

JonBenet's and Burke's bedrooms were cleaned up though including the basement.

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