Live MSM coverage on Baby Lisa 20 October 2011

[Just K]

The notion that they were sitting outside on the front stoop bugs me. Why would they be sitting out there drinking? It was pretty chilly that night, wasn't it? There are no chairs out there. Even if you're a smoker who restricts themselves to outside, they have a deck with furniture out back, don't they?

Not saying the front stoop scenario didn't happen...I just wonder why it happened. If it even did.

Well, maybe because Miss DB didn't want her neighbor to come inside the house.

 

[frankie069]

I think BS knows that they are guilty. I dont think he has all the choice he says he has on turning the parents in, only because he has been seen on TV with JT as well. I think he might be there to help with a cover-up. He just gave the two scenerio's that we all have been talking about, 1. that she shook the baby because she was pissed that she couldnt have her adult time (he only said shook the baby, the rest are my thoughts and what I think happened) and 2. that she over medicated the baby. Either BS is reading these posts or he knows, JMO.

 

[21merc7]

Could be on the front stoop to hear the boys in the house, to see the neighbors house, to see who is going by. Maybe the sun was at the front and not the back. IDK.

 

[peeples]

There is also such a thing as 'false' memory. You may remember an event one way and someone else will remember it differently, causing you to rethink it and eventually remember it correctly. Or people can think something so often they convince themselves of something that is not true.
I used to have a good memory too. I prided myself on remembering conversations word for word. Lately my memory seems to be slipping at times. It's called old age.
I know what I did last night, I just may not remember exactly what time I did it, and I am a clock watcher. I don't know the exact time I did some things because I didn't look at the clock. If it's important, I will note it, if it's incidental... I don't always. But if I drank enough wine to be drunk, I probably wouldn't even know what day it was, much less what I did.

i watched a show this past weekend on memory and it was one of the most interesting things i"ve ever seen they staged a purse snatching and brought in like 8 witnesses and compared their stories.. THEN they brought in 2 "plants". People who changed small details like said they saw the woman wearing a red coat vs a grey one, saw the man drop a cell phone vs a camera etc etc... and all of a sudden the REAL witnesses started saying "Ohh yeah it WAS a red coat" even though they plainly and rightfully stated it was grey at the beginning..
It was really cool.. and kinda scary considering how often eye witness testimony has been used to convict people...

 

[frankie069]

Someone help me and tell me where the whole memory thing came in.. Is this because she said she blacked out?? I dont buy that at all..

 

[AnaTeresa]

If they do find Baby Lisa and she had been repeatedly shaken an X-ray of her skull might show evidence of the tell-tale "egg shell crack pattern" on her skull. Many caregivers have no idea that shaking a baby repeatedly does have effects on the bone in addition to the brain tissue.

Twisting a child's arm is another type of abuse that, on X-ray, can show specific spiral hairline fractures.

They need to find Lisa.

Interesting that BS doesn't include the possibility that Lisa died or was hidden away (alive) earlier on Monday. I need a link but somewhere, in the media blitz of Monday the 17th, JI said he was the caretaker for two hours. Where was DB, who was she with and how long was she or they gone. e know her brother drove her around and that he did drive her on Monday..to buy the wine. Did they go somewhere else and this was their last stop on their way back to the house?

The possibility of Lisa being gone before the neighbor came over is looming. Nowhere have we heard anyone other than DB & JI say that Lisa was there or alive after the Sunday family event.

BBM. Very, very true. If she's been shaken or otherwise abused, there will be signs. It's why they need to find her, to rule the parent(s) in or out and figure out what happened.

If it was the parents, I just can't see it being accidental or SIDS. No parent reacts to the death of their child from accidental or undetermined factors by staging a kidnapping.

 

[peeples]

Someone help me and tell me where the whole memory thing came in.. Is this because she said she blacked out?? I dont buy that at all..

That, and I think we're talking about the friend's ability to remember things that night as well, since she was also drinking

 

[Murphismo]

I think BS knows that they are guilty. I dont think he has all the choice he says he has on turning the parents in, only because he has been seen on TV with JT as well. I think he might be there to help with a cover-up. He just gave the two scenerio's that we all have been talking about, 1. that she shook the baby because she was pissed that she couldnt have her adult time (he only said shook the baby, the rest are my thoughts and what I think happened) and 2. that she over medicated the baby. Either BS is reading these posts or he knows, JMO.

JT is "<Joe Tacopino>" I know, but who is BS?

 

[Boodles]

At some point, the neighbor had to get her daughter and leave. Did she take her daughter home and put her to bed before 10:30 and then return to drinking some more with Deborah until 10:30? Was her daughter in with the boys until 10:30? Did the children hear Lisa fussing and get her out of the crib to comfort her?

What the neighbor knows is really important in establishing a valid timeline, IMO.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Not impossible but 90% of SIDS cases occur within the first six months. If it was SIDS why stage it like a kidnapping?

A little O/T but not.

Last night's Law & Order SVU (new season - new show) was about a kidnapped baby. Mom ran into store to buy diapers and then claimed someone stole her car with the baby in the back.

Dad shows up on scene finally. LE takes parents in, separates them and starts interviewing.

They find dad's work cooler-lunch box and it tests positive for fecal matter. So they start leaning real hard on dad.

Mom finally breaks and actually draws them a map to where baby is buried.

The find baby. Stories from mom and dad are confusing and neither is confessing to killing baby.

ME does autopsy and finds out baby died from SIDS.

With that, LE finally gets the real story. Mom put baby to bed in their bed (careful to remove pillows and blankets). When she checks on him - he's gone - not breathing. Dad finds mom rocking him and singing to him (You Are My Sunshine - of all songs!)

They then decide to bury him, fearing they will be arrested for whatever.

In the end, the parents were let go. It was a very good show and I thought about this case the entire time.

I don't think that's what happened here - BUT the panic and guilt that can engulf a parent when they find their baby dead can be consuming.

Have to wonder if DB and JI saw that episode last night?

Lord, I hope today is the day they find her.

 

[Just K]

At some point, the neighbor had to get her daughter and leave. Did she take her daughter home and put her to bed before 10:30 and then return to drinking some more with Deborah until 10:30? Was her daughter in with the boys until 10:30? Did the children hear Lisa fussing and get her out of the crib to comfort her?

What the neighbor knows is really important in establishing a valid timeline, IMO.

Dear DM may have offered to get the four year old and escort her out to mommy. Four year-olds tend to come in & out. They seem to naturally check to see where mommy is.

 

[MamaK]

The notion that they were sitting outside on the front stoop bugs me. Why would they be sitting out there drinking? It was pretty chilly that night, wasn't it? There are no chairs out there. Even if you're a smoker who restricts themselves to outside, they have a deck with furniture out back, don't they?

Not saying the front stoop scenario didn't happen...I just wonder why it happened. If it even did.

If they're both smokers, it makes sense. Most smokers want to smoke while they drink. I don't know anyone who smokes in their house anymore when they have kids. They might not like to sit in the backyard with the dogs. (maybe the neighbor's dogs bark too much.) Also, with their house, don't you have to go through the basement to get to the backdoor? They might just sit out front because it's more convenient to smoke. I think I remember early in the case some neighbors had mentioned that DB regularly sits in the front yard with Lisa. They could've also been talking about things they didn't want the kids to overhear... lots of possible reasons for drinking & smoking outside on the front stoop... MOO

 

[BritsKate]

Nurse is gonna smack me! (Sorry we're derailing!)

If it was SIDS or any other accident...why not wait a few hours, until she sobered up, and then call authorities? Why a cover up? Did JI normally check on Lisa in the middle of the night? Would he have noticed?

It just seems to me if it was an accident she had an alternative to staging a kidnapping that was more plausible.

 

[hollyblue]

Good theory. FWIW, this could also be the reason the other children have not been allowed to answer any questions LE has.

I thought in one of the interviews BS says the children have talked and been vetted by LE?

 

[TxLady2]

I've been wondering about SIDS for a while now.

I remember reading some article awhile back that stated that most SIDS deaths were actually caused by sleep apnea... the baby just stops breathing for some reason, not necessarily smothered. Now they have monitors that alert the parents if the baby stops breathing. Lot of adults have sleep apnea, too.
I used to prop my babies on their sides or sometimes put them down on their tummies... but I checked them every few minutes. And as infants, they slept in a crib beside my bed, not in another room. I was old-fashioned that way. Been a long time since I had babies in the house.

 

[loveandhugs]

i watched a show this past weekend on memory and it was one of the most interesting things i"ve ever seen they staged a purse snatching and brought in like 8 witnesses and compared their stories.. THEN they brought in 2 "plants". People who changed small details like said they saw the woman wearing a red coat vs a grey one, saw the man drop a cell phone vs a camera etc etc... and all of a sudden the REAL witnesses started saying "Ohh yeah it WAS a red coat" even though they plainly and rightfully stated it was grey at the beginning..
It was really cool.. and kinda scary considering how often eye witness testimony has been used to convict people...

This is memory about what DB did, not what DB saw. Time could be off a little. Could you list what you did last night from 5:00 p.m. on. It doesn't have to be an exact time, but I am sure if you went to the store before you had dinner, you remember.

I still believe the drunk excuse is to cover up whatever happened, and DB can now make excuses for not knowing what she was doing when.

 

[BritsKate]

I thought in one of the interviews BS says the children have talked and been vetted by LE?

Article today states the kids spoke with a child victim specialist while parents spoke to detectives. However the children have not been made available to LE since then. I'll look for the links.

ETA: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/19/3218089/16-days-in-the-lisa-irwin-case.html

 

[peeples]

Nurse is gonna smack me! (Sorry we're derailing!)

If it was SIDS or any other accident...why not wait a few hours, until she sobered up, and then call authorities? Why a cover up? Did JI normally check on Lisa in the middle of the night? Would he have noticed?

It just seems to me if it was an accident she had an alternative to staging a kidnapping that was more plausible.

Only playing devil's advocate, but maybe because it was hubby's first night of working overnight and she didn't know if he would check on the baby... maybe the thought of hubby finding the baby dead horrified her.. maybe she didn't want to do that to him...
MEH.. i have no clue what happened to poor baby Lisa

 

[mmmagique]

BBM. Very, very true. If she's been shaken or otherwise abused, there will be signs. It's why they need to find her, to rule the parent(s) in or out and figure out what happened.

If it was the parents, I just can't see it being accidental or SIDS. No parent reacts to the death of their child from accidental or undetermined factors by staging a kidnapping.

I understand why BS called the things he did "accidents". Maybe they're not, technically, but in a way...they are. One moment can change your entire life in a flash.

I imagine if you're shaking a baby it's an instaneous thing, not something you pondered before you did it. Yes, the intent is there, and even the "forethought" legally. But take away the legalities and it's just seeing red, reacting blindly, and ruining yours (and others') lives forever.

I can see overdosing a baby to be an accident as well. Since most medicines (even childrens) does not have a dosage amt. for babies, many parents do their best to figure out what would be correct. I'm assuming some parents get it wrong, especially if they've been drinking.

If either of those things did happen, (or something similar) DB or JI should come forward as soon as possible and let LE know. They're not doing themselves any favors by not talking.

 

[peeples]

This is memory about what DB did, not what DB saw. Time could be off a little. Could you list what you did last night from 5:00 p.m. on. It doesn't have to be an exact time, but I am sure if you went to the store before you had dinner, you remember.

I still believe the drunk excuse is to cover up whatever happened, and DB can now make excuses for not knowing what she was doing when.

I was more thinking of the neighbor being a witness to events and her memory and how clear or clouded it is due to her drinking.

I can tell you the sequence of events last night, but cannot give you times other than to say my kids got to bed late last night due to having to go shopping for new coats because 2 of the kids broke their zippers yesterday (why oh why do they have to try to force the zippers LOL)