MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #10

[Slick762]

I've thought about this. Perhaps when he got to the door he decided to not go in and instead decided to go ahead and return to the car, but KR had moved forward. On his way to the car, he slipped and fell and whacked his head and no one noticed it. KR probably had music playing and she was texting him like crazy. Maybe he slipped in the driveway or near the where the jeep was and smacked his head on the slow plow on the jeep. Maybe he crawled toward KRs car and just finally passed out where he ended up. Then, maybe in the middle of the night some kind of animal tried to carry him off to their lair and got spooked and left him there, or gave up because he was too heavy.

As far as I know, there has been zero discussion in the trial about the possibility that JO was wounded somewhere else, like middle of the street, then staggered or crawled through a blizzard, which would cover the tracks, and stopped where he did.
That seems like a huge oversight on the investigators part to assume that body location was where he dropped and not possibly where he managed to reach from somewhere else. And given the texts with HS buddies with private info, destroyed phones, not interviewing witnesses in the house, buttdials and evidence unsecured for over a month, I don't think it's tinfoil hat time to consider it plausible that oversight was on purpose. I'd give it 50/50 between incompetence and deliberate.

 

[RANCH]

? The defense hasn't put any witnesses up yet. What problem are you referring to?

I'm sure it's confusing for people though. Seeing how helpful so much of the prosecution witnesses' testimony thus far has been for Read's defense.

Dr Russell.

 

[Slick762]

Dr Russell.

She's only testified as to her qualifications, nothing involving the case, yet.

 

[Aquarian]

As far as I know, there has been zero discussion in the trial about the possibility that JO was wounded somewhere else, like middle of the street, then staggered or crawled through a blizzard, which would cover the tracks, and stopped where he did.
That seems like a huge oversight on the investigators part to assume that body location was where he dropped and not possibly where he managed to reach from somewhere else. And given the texts with HS buddies with private info, destroyed phones, not interviewing witnesses in the house, buttdials and evidence unsecured for over a month, I don't think it's tinfoil hat time to consider it plausible that oversight was on purpose. I'd give it 50/50 between incompetence and deliberate.

I agree he may have moved about after his injury. It takes a bit of time for the body to realize there is catastrophic brain injury. It also may be why he appeared to have climbed three stairs or whatever, which I do t believe so far.

 

[Aquarian]

She's only testified as to her qualifications, nothing involving the case, yet.

Yes she did. She told the judge she thought the injuries were from an animal/ dog.

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

As far as I know, there has been zero discussion in the trial about the possibility that JO was wounded somewhere else, like middle of the street, then staggered or crawled through a blizzard, which would cover the tracks, and stopped where he did.
That seems like a huge oversight on the investigators part to assume that body location was where he dropped and not possibly where he managed to reach from somewhere else. And given the texts with HS buddies with private info, destroyed phones, not interviewing witnesses in the house, buttdials and evidence unsecured for over a month, I don't think it's tinfoil hat time to consider it plausible that oversight was on purpose. I'd give it 50/50 between incompetence and deliberate.

It’s def something I’ve thought about. He’d be far from the first man to die due to misadventure when alcohol and bad weather are involved.

There is that train line directly behind Fairview… tin foil hat part of me wants to know if any trains were running that night? But if a train was involved it would have to only veryyyy slightly clip him to reflect his injuries.

 

[ch_13]

I feel that the States case which many are aggravated about took The long and winding road bc of the defenses accusations about the Canton crowd. I can’t believe Lally would have intentionally tortured himself otherwise . It could have been a 3 week case. But, we had to interrogate everyone etc, sure good to have all the stories, but it’s been over the top . If they didn’t , they would be crucified. Still, I am open, jmo on this long and tedious event .

I disagree. Every day in courtrooms across the country there are defenses presenting alternate theories in criminal trials. The prosecution rarely ties itself in knots because of what some defense lawyer claimed happened. Prosecutors know if they put forth a strong case, the jury will convict. At most they'll put up a rebuttal witness or two to shoot down the claims at the close of arguments.

Lally's problem is that he lacks any real evidence of Karen's guilt beyond the claim she said "I hit him". Worse, his witnesses are weak and in some cases outright corrupt and/or incompetent. And he knows it. The evidence from the Feds leaves no doubt about it. So he's doing his best to plug all the leaks by putting up endless witnesses and dragging this case out for 2+ months.

 

[HarmonyE.]

There is that train line directly behind Fairview… tin foil hat part of me wants to know if any trains were running that night? But if a train was involved it would have to only veryyyy slightly clip him to reflect his injuries.

Aside from the fact that he couldn't catch a train from that location as there is no platform behind Fairview, he would have had to walk through a neighbor's back yard (Alberts' is gated) and through some woods to get to the the tracks. It's a passenger route only, and the last train to pass through the location would be around 12:15 am. Even assuming a late train, I don't think he was hit by a train and then walked back to the front yard to die from a head injury.

 

[RANCH]

She's only testified as to her qualifications, nothing involving the case, yet.

I think she testified to more than that.

If I remember she told the Judge about several facts like her opinion on the arm wounds. JMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Yes she did. She told the judge she thought the injuries were from an animal/ dog.

Not trial testimony. The jury wasn't in the room. It was just a voir dire.

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

Aside from the fact that he couldn't catch a train from that location as there is no platform behind Fairview, he would have had to walk through a neighbor's back yard (Alberts' is gated) and through some woods to get to the the tracks. It's a passenger route only, and the last train to pass through the location would be around 12:15 am. Even assuming a late train, I don't think he was hit by a train and then walked back to the front yard to die from a head injury.

I mean, I said it was tin foil hat for a reason, lol.

 

[Slick762]

I disagree. Every day in courtrooms across the country there are defenses presenting alternate theories in criminal trials. The prosecution rarely ties itself in knots because of what some defense lawyer claimed happened. Prosecutors know if they put forth a strong case, the jury will convict. At most they'll put up a rebuttal witness or two to shoot down the claims at the close of arguments.

Lally's problem is that he lacks any real evidence of Karen's guilt beyond the claim she said "I hit him". Worse, his witnesses are weak and in some cases outright corrupt and/or incompetent. And he knows it. The evidence from the Feds leaves no doubt about it. So he's doing his best to plug all the leaks by putting up endless witnesses and dragging this case out for 2+ months.

"I hit him!" or "I hit him?!" People will hear what they want.

 

[Maat99]

As far as I know, there has been zero discussion in the trial about the possibility that JO was wounded somewhere else, like middle of the street, then staggered or crawled through a blizzard, which would cover the tracks, and stopped where he did.
That seems like a huge oversight on the investigators part to assume that body location was where he dropped and not possibly where he managed to reach from somewhere else.

I’m curious where his shoe was found. That seems relevant.
The only thing I know about the shoe is that it didn’t somehow fly off his foot when he was hit by a car on his arm. So how did it get to wherever it was found?

 

[pavlovsdaughter]

I’m curious where his shoe was found. That seems relevant.
The only thing I know about the shoe is that it didn’t somehow fly off his foot when he was hit by a car on his arm. So how did it get to wherever it was found?

It was found under the snow up against the curb. There’s some photos of it in evidence.

 

[maamager]

She was calling him after he entered the house, she wanted to know whether he was staying or not. Then she probably drove home. JM was at the party and wondering where he was, I presume as they had spoken or texted while he was en route to or at the residence.
Depending on the time JM started calling him, there might be another aspect to this..

yes, i agree. i really should have fleshed out my thought process with this. i believe the case will be made with GPS his phone stopped moving shortly before the 29 straight calls started timestamped around 12:32 a . ok, makes sense if he answered a call from Jen at 12:29 for 7 seconds says “hi I'm here, be there in a second," and so on.

the most negative thing I can say is that Karen has very anxious attachment issues. i mean this with all due respect to JOK is portrayed negatively. he blew up at her for "spoiling" the kids with Dunkin’ and expressed frustration with their arguments. he refuses to talk on the phone and engages in a back-and-forth about her returning home. She wants him to explicitly say he wants her there, but he won’t. but he needed a ride home, right? man, idk, totally imo with all respect again - it just sounds like he was over the relationship or he found Karen as a girlfriend with benefits. dang. hate even writing all that, but its dawning on me that you are a product of your environment, and JOK seems to have treated KR like their relationship was disposable. again, moo imo ymmv i want justice for JOK

 

[maamager]

I think she testified to more than that.

If I remember she told the Judge about several facts like her opinion on the arm wounds. JMO.

imo mmo

i mean... of course they did. voir dire. Bev was wary of the expert in regard to their motive of involvement. at the very least, there was a pretrial discovery where both the prosecution and defense exchange evidence and information relevant to the case. that includes exchanging documents, testimonies, motions, and expert witnesses. i think this isn't an insular problem and the CW has lacked in the quality of those aforementioned identifiers.

 

[nightowl1975]

I think whatever happened occurred in the basement for a few reasons. One, the “the guy never came in the house” text screams “let’s get our story straight” to me. Two, once they realized this case wasn’t going away quietly, they replaced the floors and sold the house. Three, he lost so much blood, but so little was scooped up in the red solo cups. Where was the rest of the blood?

I don’t necessarily think they carried him outside though. The only detail that perplexes me with the idea of him managing to get back up the stairs and out into the yard himself is the shoe at the curb. He lost that shoe somehow. In the basement? Did someone go searching for it or come across it once they realized he was dead in the front yard? Drop it at the curb after the fact? I’m not sure on that one.

 

[nightowl1975]

It sounds like you're a medical professional. The average person (not a medical professional) would not know the difference. I guess when I stop and think about it, I know the difference (i.e. between a knee and a hip or shoulder), but just like Mr. Jackson said "colectomy" instead of "colostomy," I don't think it REALLY matters in this case.

JMO MOO

If anything, the fact that the shoulder has far more mobility than an actual “hinge” joint makes AJ’s point even more apparent. Did Trooper Paul account for the movement at the shoulder joint from his suggested “side swipe” by the car? Based upon his overall testimony, I think it’s safe to say no, he did not.

 

[maamager]

I think whatever happened occurred in the basement for a few reasons. One, the “the guy never came in the house” text screams “let’s get our story straight” to me. Two, once they realized this case wasn’t going away quietly, they replaced the floors and sold the house. Three, he lost so much blood, but so little was scooped up in the red solo cups. Where was the rest of the blood?

I don’t necessarily think they carried him outside though. The only detail that perplexes me with the idea of him managing to get back up the stairs and out into the yard himself is the shoe at the curb. He lost that shoe somehow. In the basement? Did someone go searching for it or come across it once they realized he was dead in the front yard? Drop it at the curb after the fact? I’m not sure on that one.

i agree with you. and i am not optimistic about this case being solved but I and tend to lean towards what gets the CW most defensive - which seems to be whether JOK eneted the house, and Colin Albert general wherabouts. let me make clear that I'm not married to those theories and they're conspiracy theory-esque to me... imo but all roads seem to end back at Jen M

 

[nightowl1975]

I have mixed feelings about the alleged conspiracy. On one hand, it does feel really odd that all these people would decide to murder John without any clear motive. At face value, the theory does seem far fetched.

On the other hand, what about all of those butt dials? It sure seems like there was some conspiring going on. And in terms of demeanor, every person who was there acts like they’re trying to hide something. That's just how it feels.

I don’t think there was some premeditated plot to murder him. I feel like whatever occurred, it was in the basement. They’re all drunk. A disagreement occurs. Maybe a punch is thrown. The dog gets involved. JO falls or is knocked backwards. Hits his head. Bleeds all over the place bc head wounds bleed a lot.

From there, I’m not sure. Perhaps they all carried him back up the stairs and dumped him in the yard. Then proceeded in their drunk states to figure out a cover story. Find his phone. Get rid of the shoe. Etc. The next morning, KR shows up and it probably felt like an answered prayer that she wondered out loud if she had possibly hit him.

Or, perhaps he wasn’t immediately knocked out. Gets up and decides to leave. Collapses in the yard. This doesn’t explain the shoe being at the curb, so I’m more inclined I guess to go with the previous scenario.

Either way, I could see all of this freaking out and covering things up while still very drunk talking a while. Then JM googles “hos long to die”. I don’t believe for a second that you can leave a Google page open indefinitely and all searches thereafter will be time stamped for the date and time you opened that browser. That makes no sense. If that’s true, I could open a Google page and leave it open for the life of my phone and all searches for the next 1-2-3 years would come back to today’s date? That’s not really believable to me.

Throw in the butt dials and butt answers and military base phone disposal the day before a court order comes down and floors replaced and houses sold and dogs rehomed and the multitude of missing footage and no evidence log and evidence unsecured and solo cups and the FBI experts saying this wasn’t from a car hitting him and on and on and on.