Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[SuperdadV8]

If it has been a planned burglary, something else should have been missing.

 

[SuperdadV8]

To enter through the patio door -even though not locked- you would still need a key.....
Somehow I believe CB entered through the window by lifting the shutters. The same happened to my parents once many years ago. It's simple routine for an experienced burglar.
Once inside he would be able to choose his exit: back through the window or through the unlocked door.

Yes, but i read, the (wooden?) door had been locked, but the patio doors hadn't, confirmed by the MC's...

Why do you need a key?

 

[Chiatos]

Has she been still alive when GM checked at 9.05 pm? A theory, that could fit PJ's assumptions IMO, so plausible!

HCW stated, he thinks MM died soon in Portugal....

Molesting gone wrong and removing evidence?!

I think HCW meant that MM died soon after her abduction. In other words, CB took her while alive, abused her somewhere else and so on.

 

[Chiatos]

Yes, but i read, the (wooden?) door had been locked, but the patio doors hadn't, confirmed by the MC's...

Why do you need a key?

The sliding doors to the pool were unlocked and could be entered and exited without keys.
The patio door = door to parking lot was also not locked, but by closing it, it would fall in its lock. From the outside you would need a key to open it. From the inside you could open it without a key (unless it would have been locked with a key).

 

[redplanet]

That's my opinion too. There are some clues (if confirmed), that lead to a planned abduction.

- nothing missing except MM
- horrible job to change a life
- moving to germany in some way
- changing jag registration
- last day of MC's vacation
- NOT a single forensic trace, like in the JC and IG cases

a small detail: the scheduled flights home were on the 5th.

 

[tedtink]

If it has been a planned burglary, something else should have been missing.

Not unless his impulsivity got the better of him.

 

[MENDEL]

PJ appear to be remarkably coy on the subject - but this would appear to confirm they have an active co-operation / liaison on CB

Also it implies that the Met have been focussed on different suspects until now

Worth mentioning HCW appeared to criticize PJ in his public comments back in June

Mr Farinha said: 'If the suspicions about this man were so obvious, he would have been the subject of requests made by the British, which were always authorised by Portugal, but those requests about him were never made. He added in his interview with Lusa: 'If the PJ is being accused of giving Brueckner a lack of priority, the same could be said of the Metropolitan Police.

'In theory everything could have been different but in 2007 and in 2012 we didn't known what we knew in 2017.'

He also described this week's fresh appeal as an initiative of the German police, who were 'convinced it could lead to additional information coming in from the Germany community.'

But appearing to hint that the evidence the three police forces have at the moment may not be enough to bring charges and a successful prosecution, he was quoted as saying: 'Suspicions about the German national have grown but unfortunately they are not enough to make him an arguido and formally accuse him.'

The interview ABC carried with the unnamed PJ officer was written by the paper's Lisbon correspondent.

German 'prime suspect' in Maddie McCann case Christian Brueckner is INNOCENT, says Portuguese police | Daily Mail Online

​

Farinha's statement is very important IMO in his unspoken words. He talks about 2007, 2012 and 2017.

2007: "PJ is being accused of giving Brueckner a lack of priority"

2012: "the same could be said of the Metropolitan Police"

2017: "Suspicions about the German national have grown but unfortunately they are not enough to make him an arguido"

 

[Dlk79]

The sliding doors to the pool were unlocked and could be entered and exited without keys.
The patio door = door to parking lot was also not locked, but by closing it, it would fall in its lock. From the outside you would need a key to open it. From the inside you could open it without a key (unless it would have been locked with a key).

I think there may be confusion here relating to what you are terming the 'patio door'. The patio doors are the sliding doors that face the pool side of the building. These were unlocked and can be opened from outside. The door that faces onto the car park is the front door. It too was unlocked but can only be opened from the outside with a key.

 

[MENDEL]

To enter through the patio door -even though not locked- you would still need a key.....
Somehow I believe CB entered through the window by lifting the shutters. The same happened to my parents once many years ago. It's simple routine for an experienced burglar.
Once inside he would be able to choose his exit: back through the window or through the unlocked door.

In 2007 there was a small patio door you could easily open from outside provided it wasn't locked (that is, only on latch).

 

[MENDEL]

I thought it might be helpful to summarise the on the record statements made by CB's defence lawyer FF which appear to summarise how he intends to present a defence. He has spoken in both english and german media, but the Sun article below captures the main thrust of the various articles

I think there are three strategies he is working on, to raise reasonable doubt. Depending on what evidence HCW has, I will expect FF to run all of these.

1. Abduction by CB doesn't fit the timeline - (the 90 second window claim)


2. Competing theories by rival police forces


3. Existence of other suspects who can't be ruled out.


Maddie suspect’s lawyer demands cops reveal ‘concrete evidence’ of murder

Clearly we want to be able to discuss FF's strategy in a robust but respectful way.

I hope Herr Fülscher is following a robust and respectful strategy indeed.

 

[Newthoughts]

I was trying not to be graphic but a few people seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. I am saying what if his initial intent was to rob but then after seeing MM, he tried to do something else. I don't really want to go into the scenarios of what might have transpired but below are some articles of what we know about CB's tendencies. I'm just saying I can imagine more than one scenario where trying to silence the child could have felt like a better option that simply running away. Or where by running away, he would have been leaving incriminating evidence at ths scene. I'll leave it at that.

Christian Brueckner 'joked about performing sex act while girls slept'

Die Akte Christian B. - DER SPIEGEL - Panorama

Mum claims Maddie suspect Christian Brueckner 'exposed himself' to her daughter

ETA: not saying this is what I think happened, just that I think it is plausible as a possibility. There are some aspects to it that make more sense than the planned abduction angle.

Even with the contamination of that crime scene, surely that scenario would have left at least some useful forensic evidence, some evidence of a struggle and enough noise to wake and distress the twins who were still fast asleep at 22.00. And why do that when quicker and easier to just grab MM.

I think a planned abduction and quick getaway is more likely. It wouldn't take a criminal mastermind. The McCanns had the bad luck of being in the most accessible appt of their group. They weren't there for parts of the evening but didn't necessarily lock all the doors. dream scenario for an evil perv.

There was a statement from a babysitter for a previous guest of that appt. Somebody else with small children. I can't find it now but I'm sure she responded to the security light being triggered and saw a man lingering around

 

[MENDEL]

That's helpful. Thanks mrjitty. However, I am unsure about the 'competing theories by rival police forces' bit. As far as i understand, GA has been dismissed from the police force due to his theories and his absolutely devastating involvement in the MM case(and other cases) . Is the conspiracy theories presented in the sm, the theories of the portuguese police force?

GA was dismissed because of his statement against British LE (political reasons if you like). He was but an investigator and there's no evidence Portuguese LE ever followed or created any conspiracy.

 

[tedtink]

That's my opinion too. There are some clues (if confirmed), that lead to a planned abduction.

- nothing missing except MM
- horrible job to change a life
- moving to germany in some way
- changing jag registration
- last day of MC's vacation
- NOT a single forensic trace, like in the JC and IG cases

If the abduction was planned, why wait until May 4 to re-register the Jag? Why not have all bases covered prior to the abduction, especially if more perps were involved.
Surely if it was a meticulously planned operation, a good planner would have registered in advance.
Seems like a bit of a scramble the next day which could indicate abduction was unplanned.
JMO

 

[Dlk79]

I think HCW meant that MM died soon after her abduction. In other words, CB took her while alive, abused her somewhere else and so on.

Not sure it's entirely clear what HCW meant or said altogether, I know he did dispute some of what was reported about it afterwards though. Most of the papers reported it as you say, that he killed her soom after the abduction, but I can't see any direct quote where HCW says that it was after an abduction. What they quote him as saying was:

Prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters says he believes Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner "relatively quickly killed the girl, possibly abused her and then killed her"
Madeleine McCann was killed soon after she was kidnapped, says German prosecutor

In that context, it remains open to the possibility of the murder taking place within 5A.

 

[Newthoughts]

The sliding doors to the pool were unlocked and could be entered and exited without keys.
The patio door = door to parking lot was also not locked, but by closing it, it would fall in its lock. From the outside you would need a key to open it. From the inside you could open it without a key (unless it would have been locked with a key).

I assumed that would be the front door. A normal automatic lock. The sliding doors would be the patio doors wouldn't they? And wouldn't they be consistent with GM being seen by JW coming down the steps?

 

[snowpea666]

IMO one might propose that the optimum time for an intruder to enter the flat was immediately after observing GM and KM setting off together to the restaurant?

Which would have made sense time-wise CBs phone call?

 

[snowpea666]

I was trying not to be graphic but a few people seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at. I am saying what if his initial intent was to rob but then after seeing MM, he tried to do something else. I don't really want to go into the scenarios of what might have transpired but below are some articles of what we know about CB's tendencies. I'm just saying I can imagine more than one scenario where trying to silence the child could have felt like a better option that simply running away. Or where by running away, he would have been leaving incriminating evidence at ths scene. I'll leave it at that.

Christian Brueckner 'joked about performing sex act while girls slept'

Die Akte Christian B. - DER SPIEGEL - Panorama

Mum claims Maddie suspect Christian Brueckner 'exposed himself' to her daughter

ETA: not saying this is what I think happened, just that I think it is plausible as a possibility. There are some aspects to it that make more sense than the planned abduction angle.

Yeh I get this, however what about the Russian brothers? NF ?? The fact he filmed things etc, IMO this was planned, I think way too many hints and such to think it was a chance encounter, I may be wrong but I really believe a few more people were involved, was she taken to order? was she the child passed over on the side of the road by a blond woman? what did CB do that night that would pay out money,and why did he tell his ex he would be leaving ?

 

[redplanet]

Not sure it's entirely clear what HCW meant or said altogether, I know he did dispute some of what was reported about it afterwards though. Most of the papers reported it as you say, that he killed her soom after the abduction, but I can't see any direct quote where HCW says that it was after an abduction. What they quote him as saying was:

Prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters says he believes Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner "relatively quickly killed the girl, possibly abused her and then killed her"
Madeleine McCann was killed soon after she was kidnapped, says German prosecutor

In that context, it remains open to the possibility of the murder taking place within 5A.

Interesting analysis.
BTW HCW sounds like IMO he may be unsure whether the "abused" section even happened. Let's hope it didn't.
My question is: if death-in-apartment is what happened, what would the intruder do next?

 

[snowpea666]

To enter through the patio door -even though not locked- you would still need a key.....
Somehow I believe CB entered through the window by lifting the shutters. The same happened to my parents once many years ago. It's simple routine for an experienced burglar.
Once inside he would be able to choose his exit: back through the window or through the unlocked door.

No those doors can only be locked from the inside 100% the front door can be opened when inside without a key but you need a key from the outside to open it to enter into the apartment.

 

[Dlk79]

Interesting analysis.
BTW HCW sounds like IMO he may be unsure whether the "abused" section even happened. Let's hope it didn't.
My question is: if death-in-apartment is what happened, what would the intruder do next?

It is interesting they are confident of the death, but the abuse is only listed as a suspicion. One possibility for that is that HB states CB told him both those things happened but BKA have only verified the death part of it by other means, possibly a photo or video. If there is a video, HCWs comment does add further weight to the theory of her dying in 5A. Given CB's previous, he surely would have also filmed the abuse if he was able to, not just evidence of death.

One thing has got me thinking with regards to whether BKA think MM died in 5A. That is, under that narrarive they wouldn't really technically be able to refer to MM's disappearance as an "abduction" or "kidnapping" if she was already dead before being taken from the apartment. I've been looking back through all HCWs quotes and the interviews I can find and I can't locate a single instance where he references a word like that. He only ever talks about a murder. Even in among all the appeals, they talk about trying to find where MM's body was disposed of but never about trying to find where she was actually killed. Is this because they believe they already know where?

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but can anyone else find any direct quotes from HCW where he uses the words 'kidnap' or 'abducted'? Or anything else he has said to suggest MM left that apartment alive?

As for your question as to what the intruder do next, it would seem their priority would have been to hide the evidence. Hard to know exactly what would go through the mind of someone who has just done something like that. What I would say is it would be far easier to remove, transport and conceal that body than if they were alive.