Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[redplanet]

At this stage of what we know, that remains a plausible option.

Just delving further into the dog alerts, the ones that might be signifcant are where Eddie (who detects cadaver and blood) alerted but Keela (only detects blood) did not.

Reading the reports, those instances occured at the wardrobe in the parents room and in the garden outside 5A. Just postulating, but in line with the theory of MM dying in 5A, there is a plausible scenario to explain that.
P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

Going back to the theory of the missing tennis bag (linked underneath), what "might" (and I use in the loosest term possible) have happened involved MM's body being taken into the parents' room to transfer her into the bag. From there, the bag might have been left in the garden while CB checked the coast was clear to take off with her.

The McCanns' Abuse of Power: What happened to Gerry McCann's blue tennis bag?
A very tentative suggestion, that might make sense of the dog alerts. As I said before though, they may be totally innacurate too.

The first alert by E was in a corner of the south bedroom. I take this to be IMO by far the strongest source of the substances he signals. His alert in the lounge was afterwards and IMO this was a much weaker source, and likewise the garden a weak source IMO. I am examining this in the context of a criminal intruder being the perpetrator and therefore ask, is it not possible that the intruder and/or the victim may have been in a room other than the child bedroom?

 

[Lilly b]

I'm sure HCW at one point said they knew how she died. I can't find it now but if they do I think you could make a very strong case that that would be the thing that only the killer would know. IMO that that could be what convinced them that whoever had confessed to it had to have been there. Only they would know that

I'm struggling to think of anything else only the killer would know. Anything else could be picked up somehow

I think we are on an interesting subject with this

 

[Quietey]

I think we are on an interesting subject with this

Yes - this is key to the whole case. I'm thinking that it points to the abductor and the killer being the same person, and that it is linked to the apartment (eg how the blood spots came to be there?) or an item from the apartment (a trophy taken? - something so seemingly insignificant that it wasn't noticed eg a hairclip that could have been presumed lost)

 

[redplanet]

At this stage of what we know, that remains a plausible option.

Just delving further into the dog alerts, the ones that might be signifcant are where Eddie (who detects cadaver and blood) alerted but Keela (only detects blood) did not.

Reading the reports, those instances occured at the wardrobe in the parents room and in the garden outside 5A. Just postulating, but in line with the theory of MM dying in 5A, there is a plausible scenario to explain that.
P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

Going back to the theory of the missing tennis bag (linked underneath), what "might" (and I use in the loosest term possible) have happened involved MM's body being taken into the parents' room to transfer her into the bag. From there, the bag might have been left in the garden while CB checked the coast was clear to take off with her.

The McCanns' Abuse of Power: What happened to Gerry McCann's blue tennis bag?
A very tentative suggestion, that might make sense of the dog alerts. As I said before though, they may be totally innacurate too.

IMO there was no tennis bag went missing that night nor did any other bag go missing that night. If there was a bag missing that night surely both GM and KM would have noticed amd stated so. Therefore if the intruder used a bag it must be one he brought with him IMO. At the Praia de Gale burglary for example the perp was described as having a rucksack?

 

[Victoria Chambers]

How can you trust GA?
How can you trust a policeman who has apparently used physical force to force a statement by parents who have lost their child? Cipriani.
How can you trust a policeman who writes a book within one(?) year about an ongoing investigation? That's far from ethical.
His best friend buddy-colleague has been convicted as a dirty cop. According to this best friend-colleague, MM wandered off by herself and disappeared in the streets of pdl.
I don't trust GA one bit. And FF hinting that the McC's received helped from someone to clear up the traces. For crying out loud.

HCW speaks of murder. No accident, plain murder.

I agree 100%. He is a Father for Gods sake. The mere mention of MM should bring tears to his eyes.. well that is the usual reaction from Investigators and Detectives on similar cases around the world. This man is not right in the head. He discarded of his deceased dog in the trash! There are no words! X

 

[Chiatos]

According to the podcast, HCW referred to evidence, that places the suspect IN the ocean club and he doesn't know, what range the mast had or has!

So they do not really seem to need the mobile data to place him near OC. Even if it was two hours before the vanishing. They seem to need the second caller for other reasons IMO.

And i think they do not expect the other caller to come forward, but a witness who can link the number to somebody.

I still think more and more, that their verdict bases on multiple paedochat confessions including exclusive perp knowledge. So they know, that they will likely do not find forensics like the body or the repeatedly mentioned parts of it.

And maybe they ask for a video or other footage he in person had shared online and the witness to that. But that will only happen, if someone else will incriminate himself.

But thinking about the actual strikes against child *advertiser censored*, maybe someone comes out, before L.E. catches them, even if his cooperation could lead to a lower sentence.

Triangulation with masts each with a different range:

The phone is located in the red area.
In this case the OC would be located in the red area.
Cell Phone Triangulation Accuracy Is All Over The Map

 

[redplanet]

At this stage of what we know, that remains a plausible option.

Just delving further into the dog alerts, the ones that might be signifcant are where Eddie (who detects cadaver and blood) alerted but Keela (only detects blood) did not.

Reading the reports, those instances occured at the wardrobe in the parents room and in the garden outside 5A. Just postulating, but in line with the theory of MM dying in 5A, there is a plausible scenario to explain that.
P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

Going back to the theory of the missing tennis bag (linked underneath), what "might" (and I use in the loosest term possible) have happened involved MM's body being taken into the parents' room to transfer her into the bag. From there, the bag might have been left in the garden while CB checked the coast was clear to take off with her.

The McCanns' Abuse of Power: What happened to Gerry McCann's blue tennis bag?
A very tentative suggestion, that might make sense of the dog alerts. As I said before though, they may be totally innacurate too.

Alternatively if the intruder wants very quickly to make something out of sight maybe under a pile of clothes is an option?

 

[tedtink]

For very short post mortem intervals such as 5 minutes or maybe 10 minutes there is IMO simply no research available on detectability by dog. It is IMO outside the capability of existing studies because they have no logistic ability to acquire subjects so swiftly.

Special chemicals are used to simulate the scent of decomposing human flesh in training Cadaver dogs.

 

[Anxala]

IMO there was no tennis bag went missing that night nor did any other bag go missing that night. If there was a bag missing that night surely both GM and KM would have noticed amd stated so. Therefore if the intruder used a bag it must be one he brought with him IMO. At the Praia de Gale burglary for example the perp was described as having a rucksack?

Agree. And just for clarity, the McCs and Clarence Mitchell said there was no missing blue bag, tennis-related or otherwise.

So any talk of a missing blue bag belonging to the McC's being used to transport a child out of 5A that evening is presumably moot.

 

[tedtink]

The first alert by E was in a corner of the south bedroom. I take this to be IMO by far the strongest source of the substances he signals. His alert in the lounge was afterwards and IMO this was a much weaker source, and likewise the garden a weak source IMO. I am examining this in the context of a criminal intruder being the perpetrator and therefore ask, is it not possible that the intruder and/or the victim may have been in a room other than the child bedroom?

Cadaverine can 'drop' from a person carrying a corpse and can 'gather' in areas where the murder did not even take place or an area where a corpse has not even been.

 

[Dlk79]

IMO there was no tennis bag went missing that night nor did any other bag go missing that night. If there was a bag missing that night surely both GM and KM would have noticed amd stated so. Therefore if the intruder used a bag it must be one he brought with him IMO. At the Praia de Gale burglary for example the perp was described as having a rucksack?

Agree. And just for clarity, the McCs and Clarence Mitchell said there was no missing blue bag, tennis-related or otherwise.

So any talk of a missing blue bag belonging to the McC's being used to transport a child out of 5A that evening is presumably moot.

Yes, probably both right but the same logic could apply to a bag CB brought with him too.

The missing blue bag is a curious story though, it must have come from somewhere. I'm aware Clarence Mitchell denying GM even owned such a bag, yet in David Payne's statement he alludes to GM having some kind of bag when playing tennis. There are also pictures of 5A (post MM) where a similar bag can be seen, some of the stories suggest this bag was part of a matching set. And despite the denial, Sky news stood by their story.

And thinking completely off the cuff, what if there was a missing bag but it's something the police don't want people to know about. It's not unusual for police to keep some details of a crime scene secret. Helps avoid false confessions. Having something only the perpetrator could know about allows them to verify if what they say is true. Just a thought.

 

[tedtink]

Yes, probably both right but the same logic could apply to a bag CB brought with him too.

The missing blue bag is a curious story though, it must have come from somewhere. I'm aware Clarence Mitchell denying GM even owned such a bag, yet in David Payne's statement he alludes to GM having some kind of bag when playing tennis. There are also pictures of 5A (post MM) where a similar bag can be seen, some of the stories suggest this bag was part of a matching set. And despite the denial, Sky news stood by their story.

And thinking completely off the cuff, what if there was a missing bag but it's something the police don't want people to know about. It's not unusual for police to keep some details of a crime scene secret. Helps avoid false confessions. Having something only the perpetrator could know about allows them to verify if what they say is true. Just a thought.

Sky News clip.

 

[Lilly b]

Yes, probably both right but the same logic could apply to a bag CB brought with him too.

The missing blue bag is a curious story though, it must have come from somewhere. I'm aware Clarence Mitchell denying GM even owned such a bag, yet in David Payne's statement he alludes to GM having some kind of bag when playing tennis. There are also pictures of 5A (post MM) where a similar bag can be seen, some of the stories suggest this bag was part of a matching set. And despite the denial, Sky news stood by their story.

And thinking completely off the cuff, what if there was a missing bag but it's something the police don't want people to know about. It's not unusual for police to keep some details of a crime scene secret. Helps avoid false confessions. Having something only the perpetrator could know about allows them to verify if what they say is true. Just a thought.

Your right they keep things back or they say a white car is a silver car etc etc

 

[Anxala]

Yes, probably both right but the same logic could apply to a bag CB brought with him too.

The missing blue bag is a curious story though, it must have come from somewhere. I'm aware Clarence Mitchell denying GM even owned such a bag, yet in David Payne's statement he alludes to GM having some kind of bag when playing tennis. There are also pictures of 5A (post MM) where a similar bag can be seen, some of the stories suggest this bag was part of a matching set. And despite the denial, Sky news stood by their story.

And thinking completely off the cuff, what if there was a missing bag but it's something the police don't want people to know about. It's not unusual for police to keep some details of a crime scene secret. Helps avoid false confessions. Having something only the perpetrator could know about allows them to verify if what they say is true. Just a thought.

Ah yes, David Payne and his 'erm eh not big enough to erm hide erm a tennis racket in erm eh...'

If the police didn't want people to know about it, then why was it flagged up so publicly by Martin Brunt and made into a tangible thing that demanded consideration?

 

[Quietey]

Yes, probably both right but the same logic could apply to a bag CB brought with him too.

The missing blue bag is a curious story though, it must have come from somewhere. I'm aware Clarence Mitchell denying GM even owned such a bag, yet in David Payne's statement he alludes to GM having some kind of bag when playing tennis. There are also pictures of 5A (post MM) where a similar bag can be seen, some of the stories suggest this bag was part of a matching set. And despite the denial, Sky news stood by their story.

And thinking completely off the cuff, what if there was a missing bag but it's something the police don't want people to know about. It's not unusual for police to keep some details of a crime scene secret. Helps avoid false confessions. Having something only the perpetrator could know about allows them to verify if what they say is true. Just a thought.

Good thinking. I was also thinking that the story must have come from somewhere.

What if: there was unreleased evidence (forensic evidence?) pointing to such a bag having been in the apartment, details of which got leaked and led to the stories - but that the bag was nothing to do with GM and had been brought in the abductor.

 

[MENDEL]

There's no evidence because they didn't investigate the window(s). Officer Nelson Pacheco arrived at the scene and mentioned nothing about the windows in his initial statement (May 2007):
P.J. POLICE FILES: NELSON FILIPE PACHECO DA COSTA G.N.R

In his second statement in October 2007 he does mention the windows:
When questioned about the bedroom windows, he only remembers that blinds of the window of the girl’s bedroom were not totally closed. He does not remember about the existence of curtains or whether the window itself was closed.
P.J. POLICE FILES: NELSON FILIPE PACHECO DA COSTA G.N.R

Colleague Jose Roque's (who was with Nelson Pacheco) initial statement in May 2007 didn't contain anything about the windows
P.J. POLICE FILES: JOSE MARIA BATISA ROQUE STATEMENT
In Jose Roque statement of October 2007, however, the windows are mentioned:
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand. He does not remember the existence of curtains. The father indicated, through the translator, alleging that when the disappearance was discovered, the windows and blinds were open.
P.J. POLICE FILES: JOSE MARIA BATISA ROQUE STATEMENT

The perpetrator could have entered and/or exited through:
- the unlocked sliding doors
- the unlocked wooden front door (by using a key to enter and no need for a key to exit)
- through the window

Those first respondents are paramilitary officers more used to enforce public order and follow commands. IMO they'd notice an open window though. But don't take their word for it. Here's picture taken by PJ and it's closed BARD for any forensic purpose.

"Window's detail which was open according to witnesses"

 

[Dlk79]

Ah yes, David Payne and his 'erm eh not big enough to erm hide erm a tennis racket in erm eh...'

If the police didn't want people to know about it, then why was it flagged up so publicly by Martin Brunt and made into a tangible thing that demanded consideration?

The police don't control the Press. Sky News might have picked up on the information and reported it without knowing it was meant to be kept secret.

 

[redplanet]

Special chemicals are used to simulate the scent of decomposing human flesh in training Cadaver dogs.

Yes. But to test detectability by dog of a body at only 10 minutes PM, requires acquiring a body at only 10 minutes PM and obtaining scent pad samples at that moment. The absence of proof of detectability at 10 minutes is IMO because of this logistic difficulty.

 

[MENDEL]

Special chemicals are used to simulate the scent of decomposing human flesh in training Cadaver dogs.

The cadaver dog was trained with decomposing pigs (human remains are unacceptable for this purpose in UK). According to operator, cadaver dogs from US trained with human corpses couldn't make a distinction between human and porcine decomposing scent. Operator also claimed his dog was challenged with artificial cadaver scent and it showed no interest.

 

[tedtink]

The police don't control the Press. Sky News might have picked up on the information and reported it without knowing it was meant to be kept secret.

The blue item in the pic in the wardrobe was a 'suitcase' according to GM's statement.
I'm sure GM wouldn't have said it was a suitcase if it were a 'sports bag' - there's a big difference imo - for instance I'm sure DP wouldn't had described the bag GM took to tennis as a suitcase either.
So IMO there are 2 blue items, a blue suitcase and a blue tennis bag.
The MC's may have been asked to deny the existence of the sports bag due to the fact that it may have been removed from 5A by the perp.
JMO

When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine........

P.J. POLICE FILES: GERRY MCCANN'S ARGUIDO STATEMENT 07 SEP 2007