Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[redplanet]

Is there a connection between harvesting lost golf balls and possession of diving goggles?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Agreed no reason to go in there for looking out purposes. But a completely different scenario is if after GM check, M independently wakes, goes to other bedroom, falls asleep there, before intruder enters apartment.

But this offers no explanation of why the kid’s bedroom door is more open on GM’s check than when he and KM left the apartment.

I do think this is important. Parents would be precise with how wide they leave the door open - just enough light so the kids aren’t freaked out if they wake up in complete darkness but dark enough for them to drop back to sleep if they wake up.

This anomaly was registered by GM. He probably thought MM woke up and opened it and then went back to bed, this is of course possible but in this scenario with my kids: they wake up, get completely out of bed, walk around the apartment, find no parents, they wouldn’t get back into bed and settle themselves, they would scream until they were attended to.

In my mind, the openness of the door is quite an important fact and it leads to an intruder in the apartment during both checks.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

If I was a parent and my child was missing I would yank every curtain and sofa around and check behind and underneath everything ... even yank stuff out of closets to see if she was there.

How many of the Tapas 5 friends could have done the same while searching ??

It is extremely doubtful that those apartment pictures represent an undisturbed crime scene .

I bet even the first police on the scene checked everywhere in the apartment. Remember at that time nobody knew this was going to be an international kidnapping story. It was just a missing kid at first.

It’s a very fair point and it could explain it but we don’t know what happened and even if the curtains were move during the search, it doesn’t mean the window wasn’t used to check the side street.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

After the about 930 MO check there is further foot traffic for a departing intruder to slot around: JT walks from restaurant to 5D (to take over childcare), and then ROB walks from 5D to restaurant (to recommence meal).

They’re taking the same route from the restaurant to block 5 though right?

 

[redplanet]

But this offers no explanation of why the kid’s bedroom door is more open on GM’s check than when he and KM left the apartment.

I do think this is important. Parents would be precise with how wide they leave the door open - just enough light so the kids aren’t freaked out if they wake up in complete darkness but dark enough for them to drop back to sleep if they wake up.

This anomaly was registered by GM. He probably thought MM woke up and opened it and then went back to bed, this is of course possible but in this scenario with my kids: they wake up, get completely out of bed, walk around the apartment, find no parents, they wouldn’t get back into bed and settle themselves, they would scream until they were attended to.

In my mind, the openness of the door is quite an important fact and it leads to an intruder in the apartment during both checks.

IMO she could have woken, looked for parents in other bedroom, returned to own bed, and gone back to sleep. IMO there is a fair possibility she may have woken and done this during some of the previous four evening meals

 

[redplanet]

They’re taking the same route from the restaurant to block 5 though right?

Yes same route

 

[Denis R Tandib]

IMO she could have woken, looked for parents in other bedroom, returned to own bed, and gone back to sleep. IMO there is a fair possibility she may have woken and done this during some of the previous four evening meals

I’m not with you on this. I have four kids, one is three-and-a-half and MM would need to be an unusual child IMO to do this. At her age she probably wouldn’t be able to rationalise this situation and go back to sleep. She would almost certainly of screamed until her parents came to settle her or until exhaustion sent her to sleep, this latter option would likely take several hours.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Yes same route

So from the same viewpoints he could see if they were coming before exiting the apartment?

 

[Newthoughts]

Yes. If the curtain had been in this odd position already when MO checked at about 9.30pm, he would IMO have noticed it (because illuminated by the table lamp). Therefore the curtain was probably displaced to its odd position later than the MO check?

I don't feel the MO check was that thorough. I get the impression he just glanced in the door to check for awake children before hurrying back.

I think we're looking at it from the point of knowing what happened - abduction - and therefore the heightened awareness of anything odd would be foremost in our minds. They would be looking at it from the perspective of children being safely tucked up in bed and just checking they weren't awake. So that's all they'd notive

 

[Newthoughts]

I am ever grateful tbh that I was able to grieve properly. I realise that there is always somebody, somewhere, worse off than myself. Thank You Okapi X

So sorry for your loss xx

 

[Lilly b]

Yes possible it didnt register.
PJ/GA seemed to think the odd curtain position was caused by someone pulling the sofa out away from the window then pushing it back again against the window.

Could it not of been km, when she realised mm wasn't in her bed, she looked in the wardrobe, behind the settee etc to see if she was there?

 

[Newthoughts]

If I was a parent and my child was missing I would yank every curtain and sofa around and check behind and underneath everything ... even yank stuff out of closets to see if she was there.

How many of the Tapas 5 friends could have done the same while searching ??

It is extremely doubtful that those apartment pictures represent an undisturbed crime scene .

I bet even the first police on the scene checked everywhere in the apartment. Remember at that time nobody knew this was going to be an international kidnapping story. It was just a missing kid at first.

I agree. The panic must have been awful and the first instinct to find your child. I'd year the place to pieces.as well

 

[Lilly b]

If someone entered the apartment, by the by of which door, and that person had kadaver scent on them, then km touched the same door, and we know she searched the place looking for MM, would that scent be transferred onto things? Like the sofa and wardrobe, which then asks the question, what sort of person came into contact with a dead person, prior going into the apartment?
A bit far fetched I know

 

[Newthoughts]

But this offers no explanation of why the kid’s bedroom door is more open on GM’s check than when he and KM left the apartment.

I do think this is important. Parents would be precise with how wide they leave the door open - just enough light so the kids aren’t freaked out if they wake up in complete darkness but dark enough for them to drop back to sleep if they wake up.

This anomaly was registered by GM. He probably thought MM woke up and opened it and then went back to bed, this is of course possible but in this scenario with my kids: they wake up, get completely out of bed, walk around the apartment, find no parents, they wouldn’t get back into bed and settle themselves, they would scream until they were attended to.

In my mind, the openness of the door is quite an important fact and it leads to an intruder in the apartment during both checks.

Trying to work my way round this.

GMs statement about the window normally suggests a small amount of external light reaches the children's room at night. Curtains are drawn possibly against this?

At 21.00 MO checks by walking past listening for noise and says the window and shutters of MMs bedroom were closed all is quiet and well.

21.05 GM goes to check. Is aware the door is more open than he recalled but noticed nothing unusual enough to alert suspicion and doesn't notice the window at all - which you would definitely notice more than a slightly more ajar door. Nor does he notice any extra external light that could suggest shutters tampered with behind curtains or additional light getting in.

So in that last visual sighting of MM he does not see anything to alert suspicion other than a slightly more open door. In short nothing that would make him worry.

I think if you'd notice door you'd certainly notice windows. So IMO the window is look out only for CB.

If you're checking your children are sleeping peacefully noise and disturbances are what are on your mind. IMO CB can't have been there unnoticed by a parent on the alert for noises and disturbance.

He also sees MM sleeping peacefully and quietly. Surely any noise would have alerted him.

MO checks at 9.35 and noticed light but he's not aware of how the apartment would look normally so could that just be the normal. He says door ajar. He sees twin but doesn't enter room or see MM. He does hear a noise sounding like ordinary turning over in a bed. Not enough to check.

KM finds open door and window.

If JT sighting is relevant - surely the door and window would have been obviously the same at MOs check as they were at KMs

If CB had been in the flat at GMs check I can't help thinking he'd have noticed. I can't see CB hiding behind the door or tip toeing around GM when the whole purpose of the check was to ensure themselves the children were quiet and they were.

So I can't help thinking that the time between GM and KM is when CB entered the appt and that he left some time between MO and KM. And I think Smith sighting is relevant

 

[peanutJelly]

If he was in 5A during GM’s check, it seems possible that he hid in the parents bedroom. I say this because GM went through the lounge/diner into the kids room and into the bathroom. It makes sense to hide here during this check but obviously he didn’t know in advance where GM would go in the apartment. While GM was in the bathroom, he could have changed his hiding location. I don’t think he need to go in there to check the exterior of the apartment out of the window but I could be wrong, just doesn’t give him much more information.

Yes and also we know he was comfortable intruding while others are in the apartment so he wouldn’t have been too worried as he would know he had the option just to flee if discovered

 

[redplanet]

I’m not with you on this. I have four kids, one is three-and-a-half and MM would need to be an unusual child IMO to do this. At her age she probably wouldn’t be able to rationalise this situation and go back to sleep. She would almost certainly of screamed until her parents came to settle her or until exhaustion sent her to sleep, this latter option would likely take several hours.

I just consider it unlikely that she slept continuously, without waking even once, through the evening meals on that sunday, monday, tuesday, and wednesday, each of which lasted longer than on the thursday.

 

[dsheal]

Hi everyone, I’ve been checking in now and then lately as life has been busy so I may have missed it but... has this been shared/discussed yet?

German police raid 50 homes in child *advertiser censored* investigation
Article is dated Sept 2, 2020 but is the October 2019 date mentioned of any significance to anyone?

I know of other raids but wasn’t sure if I’d read about this one before... just thought it was interesting!!

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I just consider it unlikely that she slept continuously, without waking even once, through the evening meals on that sunday, monday, tuesday, and wednesday, each of which lasted longer than on the thursday.

I think we have PF’s statement which detailed MM crying 1 May. This is the normal response to a child left alone IMO.

I think kids wake in bed and then fall back asleep quickly. What I don’t think works with what you are suggesting is that if MM woke up and got out of bed, opened the door to her bedroom then at this point she really is awake and looking for her parents. She would become agitated and cry until her parents attend to her. It really is the fact that she got up and got out of bed that gives me doubt - I really don’t think she opened the door prior to GM’s check.

 

[Anxala]

Which is an odd way to solve the case

It really is. And I'll just leave that there.

 

[C.greek]

Yes. Very early on, a matter of days, MM came to KM in a dream and KM woke absolutely convinced that MM was showing her that she was deceased and buried on a hill. KM was adamant that every hill needed to be investigated. It is very sad and as a Mum of a deceased child, I totally believe that MM was bringing KM a message. The bond between Mother and child, even in death, is like an invisible umbilicle cord. I cant explain it X

I am so sorry for your loss.