Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[snowpea666]

HCW stated, that german prosecuters are convinced that CB abducted and killed MM. Possibly abused her before.

HCW assumes, that the special mobile number has been logged in the area on may the 3rd, without caring about a possible mast range. HCW is interested in the other caller.

When asked if he can put CB in 5A, he stated that the answer to that question would cause more questions, and he isn't willing to answer it.

IMO, CB hasn't been in 5A to snatch her. But he likely had a horrible job to do that day, that would change his life and he wouldn't be seen for a while. Maybe according to a formerly abducted child, that has become a "damaged good" due to the massive media attention hours after.

CB used FF as his messenger, by making FF quoting him that he won't coorporate, until holy water will be served in hell.

IMO HCW and FF know both, which part CB played on may the 3rd. IMO CB really hasn't been in 5A that night, but he played part of something and maybe had the "dirty work" to to. Maybe the "transporter" or "Mr. Clean" or something. Or he didn't made the dirty work, but has been accused indirectly to make him talk what really happened, or being accused as the murderer. It depends on his unknown confessions.

FF's comprehensible quote: "Just because somebody is a paedophile, he ain't a murderer. Big dilemma-situation for CB, FF and HCW. Like a mexican standoff....?!

That thing is getting more and more interesting IMO.

Brilliant post, thanks

 

[Anxala]

My bottle of wine contains 2 glasses!

You lightweight. My wine glass contains 2 bottles.

 

[tedtink]

You lightweight. My wine glass contains 2 bottles.

You're hardcore!
Bottoms up! LOL

 

[redplanet]

No, you're right. It only mentions 5 prints from 2 of her fingers in the file. In the Netflix doc, it mentions an "open palm" as if she had slid the window across. But perhaps they just mean the fingerprints were positioned as if in the form of an open palm as opposed to an actual palm print.

If Netflix show an image of their alleged open palm on the window I would be most grateful if someone could post a screenshot of it please.

 

[redplanet]

On discovering a child missing and seeing the window and shutter open, obviously KM or me or anyone in that situation is going to lean out the open window and look outside.

 

[Dlk79]

If Netflix show an image of their alleged open palm on the window I would be most grateful if someone could post a screenshot of it please.

Why does it matter if it is a palm print or finger prints from an open hand? Just because they identify fingerprints, doesn't mean there wasn't also trace of a palm which is smudged etc to take a sample. If KM puts her hand on the window to look out, does only her fingers touching it prove something different than if her palm also touched it? If anything, it would seem more natural that her palm would have also touched it while looking out.

The bit I referred to in the Netflix doc was a piece by Amaral (can't recall which episode). Perhaps not the best source admittedly, but he talks about an open hand/palm and that the prints indicated the movement of a window being opened. The details in the PJ files are limited to stating there were fingerprints, not much else is metioned, so 'perhaps' there is more the police were aware of in terms the orientation of the prints in a cetain direction which might have indicated the moving of the window. Then again, perhaps not. I don't know. But to take KM's book account as factual is IMO also naive. She mentions nothing of all this in her statements, and within her book she has all the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of the existing evidence to explain away the prints and other mysterious anomalies.

To be clear, I have no strong opinion either way. I don't think there is anything that can be conclusively stated about the reason for the prints on the window but I do have several reservations about the various T9 accounts in general. I don't think any of them had anything to do with MM's disappearance but there are a number of assertions they make which I have trust issues with, for varying reasons, which I won't go in to. JMO.

.

 

[axelcruze]

Brilliant post, thanks

Yeah some interesting thoughts there. It seems strange that all of the sightings and comings and goings of people on this day and timeframe, it was quite a busy area, seems strange with all the pics of CB in the media that nobody seems to have seen him or remembered as seeing him - personally i always remember faces that i see at holiday resorts i've been to, particularly guys that hang around, it's just parents instinct perhaps. I thought Tannerman could have been him but now i'd agree that JTs account is not reliable. FFs comments about Brits blown away might suggest CB has an alibi for that timeframe, but as it's mentioned above, HCW says she was 'murdered and CB did it' suggests this took place after that day and in the time period before this i.e. apartment and possible abductor they can't know. Possibly the only thing connecting CB to the area PLD/Ocean is the caller to CBs supposed number by someone not in the area on a prepaid vodafone.

 

[redplanet]

Why does it matter if it is a palm print or finger prints from an open hand? Just because they identify fingerprints, doesn't mean there wasn't also trace of a palm which is smudged etc to take a sample. If KM puts her hand on the window to look out, does only her fingers touching it prove something different than if her palm also touched it? If anything, it would seem more natural that her palm would have also touched it while looking out.

The bit I referred to in the Netflix doc was a piece by Amaral (can't recall which episode). Perhaps not the best source admittedly, but he talks about an open hand/palm and that the prints indicated the movement of a window being opened. The details in the PJ files are limited to stating there were fingerprints, not much else is metioned, so 'perhaps' there is more the police were aware of in terms the orientation of the prints in a cetain direction which might have indicated the moving of the window. Then again, perhaps not. I don't know. But to take KM's book account as factual is IMO also naive. She mentions nothing of all this in her statements, and within her book she has all the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of the existing evidence to explain away the prints and other mysterious anomalies.

To be clear, I have no strong opinion either way. I don't think there is anything that can be conclusively stated about the reason for the prints on the window but I do have several reservations about the various T9 accounts in general. I don't think any of them had anything to do with MM's disappearance but there are a number of assertions they make which I have trust issues with, for varying reasons, which I won't go in to. JMO.

.

TY. Yes agreed I would expect left palm to contact the sliding pane of the window while leaning out, there would be nothing suspicious about that.
However an earlier documentary took a clearly identified GNR thumbprint on the lounge door and wrongly claimed it was on the bedroom window and made by KM. Hopefully the same big mistake is not being pushed again by the recent documentary.

 

[Loobyloo]

By the time the dial moves back where it should be -- Oh, snap! The Tapas 7! -- we'll all have been identified as suspects.

???? Why should we become suspects, just for discussing the case?
Sorry, I'm not sure what point you're making here.

 

[Monic]

@Loobyloo
We?
Are you a member of the Tapa's 7

 

[Newthoughts]

Yeah some interesting thoughts there. It seems strange that all of the sightings and comings and goings of people on this day and timeframe, it was quite a busy area, seems strange with all the pics of CB in the media that nobody seems to have seen him or remembered as seeing him - personally i always remember faces that i see at holiday resorts i've been to, particularly guys that hang around, it's just parents instinct perhaps. I thought Tannerman could have been him but now i'd agree that JTs account is not reliable. FFs comments about Brits blown away might suggest CB has an alibi for that timeframe, but as it's mentioned above, HCW says she was 'murdered and CB did it' suggests this took place after that day and in the time period before this i.e. apartment and possible abductor they can't know. Possibly the only thing connecting CB to the area PLD/Ocean is the caller to CBs supposed number by someone not in the area on a prepaid vodafone.

One thing that stuck out in JTs later statement was how quiet and dark it was when she went to check her daughter compared with normal.

I'm not sure I would have particularly noticed CB - he's ordinary lookin

 

[snowpea666]

I would like to introduce my shot-glass to you, dear ted!

View attachment 273231

 

[snowpea666]

PG 71 'Madeleine'
"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors, as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds.
All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I walked over and gently began to pull it. Suddenly it slammed shut, as if caught by a draught.
A little surprised I turned to see if I'd left the patio doors open and let in the breeze. Retracing my steps. I confirmed that I hadn't. Returning to the children's room I opened the door a little, and as I did so I glanced over at Madeleine's bed"...............

This is strange I think! So she says as she was pulling it shut , her hand on it it slammed shut so im must have been a strong gust of wind blowing in the room from an open window ? Would she not have looked at the kids as she was pulling it shut ?? the door banged shut not oppend so the patio door being open would have pushed door open not shut! then before she thought gosh why did the door do that she didnt open door and check the kids, I deff would! it would be I think a reaction without even thinking ! IMO, no she walked back retracting her steps to check the patio door first !! so she oppend the kids door a little ? even with the big gust of wind, would you not creep in quietly to see if all was ok? Please dont think Im accusing the parents of any wrong doing if you know what I mean, Im not, but I belive GM and kM to be intellegent well educated people, and I dont think they are gullable, so were they mabye overly relaxed and not thinking right maybye due to vino ? I know it makes no impact on the fact a little girl was taken etc, but, these are the things FF will have a feild day with if it went to court. IM only.

 

[snowpea666]

???? Why should we become suspects, just for discussing the case?
Sorry, I'm not sure what point you're making here.

I know what you mean Loo

 

[snowpea666]

@Loobyloo
We?
Are you a member of the Tapa's 7

She was meaning WE as in the Tapas 7

 

[tedtink]

This is strange I think! So she says as she was pulling it shut , her hand on it it slammed shut so im must have been a strong gust of wind blowing in the room from an open window ? Would she not have looked at the kids as she was pulling it shut ?? the door banged shut not oppend so the patio door being open would have pushed door open not shut! then before she thought gosh why did the door do that she didnt open door and check the kids, I deff would! it would be I think a reaction without even thinking ! IMO, no she walked back retracting her steps to check the patio door first !! so she oppend the kids door a little ? even with the big gust of wind, would you not creep in quietly to see if all was ok? Please dont think Im accusing the parents of any wrong doing if you know what I mean, Im not, but I belive GM and kM to be intellegent well educated people, and I dont think they are gullable, so were they mabye overly relaxed and not thinking right maybye due to vino ? I know it makes no impact on the fact a little girl was taken etc, but, these are the things FF will have a feild day with if it went to court. IM only.

Yeah, I agree with your KM observation.

FF has already said........

“If the witness statements are correct, there was a time window of one minute and 30 seconds in which the child could have been abducted. My client did not commit this crime.”

You could say that he was being provocative by trying to force the prosecutors hand, but if he intends to rely on the T9 timeline if this goes to trial, he can ill afford to attempt to destroy T9 witness credibility imo.

I suppose we don't have much here from the prosecutors so I'm sure it'll take more twists and turns.

 

[Zuleika]

Spooky is a word I seem to recall JT using describing that route from the restaurant .
Yes CB indeed has rather a bland looking face . Perhaps if it was coupled with behaviour ,clothing or hairstyle that attracted you ,you might notice him ? A few times on returning to a holiday hotel my companion has been approached in conversation with “ Hello again , I remember you ,can’t mistake that hairstyle!” He did have a rather glorious mullet .

 

[Newthoughts]

Am I the only one who finds that odd? So, rather than walk to the room, she just stands there for a few seconds (where exactly? Hovering at the patio door while it's open, or just stood motionless in the sitting room after entering, having now closed the patio door). After a few seconds of standing and listening, she now notices the bedroom door is open (why didn't she see it straight away? Why pause to listen?) . So, she goes over and tries to close the door, without even looking into the room at the kids. The door slams. Her next thought isn't to check in the room, but to retrace her steps back to the patio door to see if she left it open. I just find this a very strange sequence.

No you're not the only one that finds it odd

If the checks were to ascertain the children were asleep I guess she might have just listened out for noise - but I find the whole sequence odd as well. It could be that she was a little bit merry by that point and not thinking as clearly as she could. I'm not being judgemental there at all.

 

[Newthoughts]

Going back to yesterday's posts, this is why I dismiss much of the tapas statements beyond the broad strokes.

They faced potential liability and scrutiny. They contaminated their statements. Too often things feel dramatised or embellished in a defensive way, to fit with the others.

It's why I say, if you read between the lines, the Met did not "find" creche man, so much as give JT an offramp to finally consign Tannerman to history where he rather obviously belongs.

I think you're right about their statements and defensiveness. Being cautious about their statements is not saying they're guilty of anything nor judging them .

The only statements about that evening that I take without a pinch of salt is the neutral
JW. It is clear, sober and unembellished - when he isn't sure if timings he says so.

Whilst not judging or disbelieving the tapas 9 I think their statements should be viewed in context. They were out for the evening at the end of the uneventful holiday with a checking system that appeared to have worked for all concerned. Overly relaxed, overly confident and feeling falsely secure about things. Their only worry was that the kids would wake up.

JT hints they might have been a bit later on previous evenings after going to the bar and that KM had mentioned MM's comment about waking up.

They were in the middle of meals and interesting conversations that they'd be eager to get back to if all was well, so perhaps they weren't as diligent in checks of children that weren't their own as they might have suggested?

Also they probably weren't roaring drunk but I doubt they were stone cold sober and in full possession of normal rational thinking faculties.

Add to that the shock. In the back of their minds must have been the fact they'd left their kids and how would they justify that to others and perhaps even to themselves.

I think more sober circumstances - the statements would have been more like JWs.

That's all just my opinion.

As for Tannerman - do you think JT imagined it? I've assumed it was crecheman

 

[tedtink]

I think you're right about their statements and defensiveness. Being cautious about their statements is not saying they're guilty of anything nor judging them .

The only statements about that evening that I take without a pinch of salt is the neutral
JW. It is clear, sober and unembellished - when he isn't sure if timings he says so.

Whilst not judging or disbelieving the tapas 9 I think their statements should be viewed in context. They were out for the evening at the end of the uneventful holiday with a checking system that appeared to have worked for all concerned. Overly relaxed, overly confident and feeling falsely secure about things. Their only worry was that the kids would wake up.

JT hints they might have been a bit later on previous evenings after going to the bar and that KM had mentioned MM's comment about waking up.

They were in the middle of meals and interesting conversations that they'd be eager to get back to if all was well, so perhaps they weren't as diligent in checks of children that weren't their own as they might have suggested?

Also they probably weren't roaring drunk but I doubt they were stone cold sober and in full possession of normal rational thinking faculties.

Add to that the shock. In the back of their minds must have been the fact they'd left their kids and how would they justify that to others and perhaps even to themselves.

I think more sober circumstances - the statements would have been more like JWs.

That's all just my opinion.

As for Tannerman - do you think JT imagined it? I've assumed it was crecheman

I agree.
As for Tannerman - I think JT did see Dr Tot but her memory could have 'reversed' the direction he was walking.
As we know, memory is malleable and after she realised MM had gone, it's probable and highly conceivable that her 'memory' altered that image she had in her mind of Totman in order to 'fit' an abduction - albeit unconsciously.
I have searched online press articles to see if Totman ever mentioned the exact time that he picked his daughter up from the creche and I've searched for creche records for signing out times etc but not part of the original investigation so no luck.
The time would be really helpful info in order to confirm that part of the Tapas timeline.
Info that LE will surely have.

JMO