Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[SuperdadV8]

IMO all these logical and comprehensible thoughts would be that relevant, if the mere kidnapping will be the crucial part in the investigation.

Any sentence for kidnap or even abuse should come under statue of limitation after the last almost 14 if not 15 years in case of a official charge and trial.

In my opinion, it really isn't that much important how MM left the apartment, for keeping it as a murder case. Just having evidence of a possible abduction (i say possible because it is not impossible that she left 5A by herself), isn't a proof for murder BARD. You can even have got footage of CB and MM together, without forensics or footage of murder, the case isn't that bulletproof. The suspect could always say, he got money from a guy called Nuńo to drive the child to some other guy called Jorge e.g.. Who could prove him wrong, even without a body or a witness or footage of the murder or strong abuse of the missing child? That ain't bulletproof to put someone to jail for the rest of his life if you ask me.

So it depends on the verdicts and clues they have against CB. Maybe they have a pic of him with an unharmed MM on it. That would be more than enough to interrogate, right. But what then?

Just take a look at the Jos B. case. 27 traces of DNA on a body but no sentence for murder, just abuse with following death and 12.5 years instead of a life sentence.

But if they can proof the murder itself with certainty, together with a straight link to the victim it does not matter, if the tapas timeline fits or if they can put CB in 5A on may the 3rd or what escape-argumentation the suspect or his solicitor is referring to.

JMO

 

[redplanet]

... guessing ...
1. maybe HCW knows that the carrying out from the building was done by a not-plainly-visible method???

... guessing further...
2. maybe HCW also knows that the carrying out from the building was later than both those sightings (JT and S family) ???

 

[Anxala]

Interesting @mrjitty and @SuperdadV8

So basically, you're saying/proposing that how MM disappeared from 5A is not relevant since that's not what this particular (German) investigation, unlike the previous 2 investigations which were abduction-led, is focused on?

That if what the prosecutors have and/or end up with is enough for CB to be successfully charged with her murder, then that's their job done?

And that any remaining 'loose ends' will remain loose ends for someone else to tie up, or not, but they won't be part of or the concern of this particular investigation?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Putting my sensible head on and reading your reply has made me sit up. I already knew that a suspect can only be charged once, that knowledge must have been in the back of my head.

Do you mean cannot be tried again for the same crime or charged again?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

IMO all these logical and comprehensible thoughts would be that relevant, if the mere kidnapping will be the crucial part in the investigation.

Any sentence for kidnap or even abuse should come under statue of limitation after the last almost 14 if not 15 years in case of a official charge and trial.

In my opinion, it really isn't that much important how MM left the apartment, for keeping it as a murder case. Just having evidence of a possible abduction (i say possible because it is not impossible that she left 5A by herself), isn't a proof for murder BARD. You can even have got footage of CB and MM together, without forensics or footage of murder, the case isn't that bulletproof. The suspect could always say, he got money from a guy called Nuńo to drive the child to some other guy called Jorge e.g.. Who could prove him wrong, even without a body or a witness or footage of the murder or strong abuse of the missing child? That ain't bulletproof to put someone to jail for the rest of his life if you ask me.

So it depends on the verdicts and clues they have against CB. Maybe they have a pic of him with an unharmed MM on it. That would be more than enough to interrogate, right. But what then?

Just take a look at the Jos B. case. 27 traces of DNA on a body but no sentence for murder, just abuse with following death and 12.5 years instead of a life sentence.

But if they can proof the murder itself with certainty, together with a straight link to the victim it does not matter, if the tapas timeline fits or if they can put CB in 5A on may the 3rd or what escape-argumentation the suspect or his solicitor is referring to.

JMO

I guess trials are different in Germany. "Bulletproof" IMOO is an awfully high bar. In the U.S. and many other countries, the standard that must be met is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Interesting @mrjitty and @SuperdadV8

So basically, you're saying/proposing that how MM disappeared from 5A is not relevant since that's not what this particular (German) investigation, unlike the previous 2 investigations which were abduction-led, is focused on?

That if what the prosecutors have and/or end up with is enough for CB to be successfully charged with her murder, then that's their job done?

And that any remaining 'loose ends' will remain loose ends for someone else to tie up, or not, but they won't be part of or the concern of this particular investigation?

In my opinion, a 13 year old case or investigation, that has never really made a hit or really useful clue could contain so many circumstances, that give any suspect the chance to be ruled out in the end because so many verdicts can't be supported by evidence anymore.

So i think prosecuters focus on the death on MM, not how she has been abducted from 5A. It's a fact that she went missing until today, the suspect is a convicted peado and thief and his mobile was logged in the area over an hour before the child was gone, according to the tapas statements. This, together with some possible confessions to other criminals or peados would never stand a charge. That are just verdicts and no proof IMO.

But if you have a concrete link between MM and CB, just one pic or video maybe, that could even show MM alive but togehter with some DNA or the body itself, some of the verdicts could likely be seen as evidence to fill up a charge against the suspect. Without being pushed to prove the kidnapping from 5A in detail!

That's why the prosecuters are keen on digging and asking for holiday pics if you ask me.

 

[altojack]

I too see a Meerkat at the rear of the vehicle next to the bumper.

Do you mean cannot be tried again for the same crime or charged again?

Tried again for same crime. If accused is tried and found not guilty there's no second chance to charge again and take him back to court if further info turns up to prove he is guilty.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I too see a Meerkat at the rear of the vehicle next to the bumper.


Tried again for same crime. If accused is tried and found not guilty there's no second chance to charge again and take him back to court if further info turns up to prove he is guilty.

Right!

Section 362 Code of Criminal Procedure (362 StPO)

Readmission to the disadvantage of the convicted

The resumption of proceedings concluded by a final judgment to the disadvantage of the accused is permissible,

1. if a document presented as genuine in his favor at the main hearing was false or falsified;

2. if the witness or expert is guilty of an intentional or negligent breach of the duty of an oath or of a deliberately false, insulting testimony in a testimony or expert opinion submitted in favor of the accused

3. if a judge or lay judge was involved in the judgment who was guilty of a criminal violation of his official duties in relation to the matter;

4. if the acquitted person makes a credible confession of the crime in court or out of court.

 

[tedtink]

I too see a Meerkat at the rear of the vehicle next to the bumper.

Road kill - supper

 

[tedtink]

Either this is a mad post, or I might have nailed the exact location of the VW image. Difficult to see the fence posts on the June 2007 images, but more visible in the 2018. To me anyway The grass verge before the stream with the reeds would have been much greener and plentiful early May
View attachment 274001View attachment 274000View attachment 274003View attachment 274002

Google Maps
37°08'14.55" N 8°46'09.30" W

Approximately how far down the dirt track is that, about 1/3 mile?

 

[Dlk79]

In my opinion, a 13 year old case or investigation, that has never really made a hit or really useful clue could contain so many circumstances, that give any suspect the chance to be ruled out in the end because so many verdicts can't be supported by evidence anymore.

So i think prosecuters focus on the death on MM, not how she has been abducted from 5A. It's a fact that she went missing until today, the suspect is a convicted peado and thief and his mobile was logged in the area over an hour before the child was gone, according to the tapas statements. This, together with some possible confessions to other criminals or peados would never stand a charge. That are just verdicts and no proof IMO.

But if you have a concrete link between MM and CB, just one pic or video maybe, that could even show MM alive but togehter with some DNA or the body itself, some of the verdicts could likely be seen as evidence to fill up a charge against the suspect. Without being pushed to prove the kidnapping from 5A in detail!

That's why the prosecuters are keen on digging and asking for holiday pics if you ask me.

I agree. It is not necessary for the charge they are bringing (murder) to explain any of the events or anomalies of the witnesses timeline.

One thing to bear in mind too is HB's statement regarding CB's confession. It could be LE already know the sequence of events of that night, and there is simply nothing the original witnesses can add to it, or that they don't need them to. Or, that it contradicts elements of what they claimed.

Ultimately, none of the witnesses saw the intruder (unless he was Tannerman/Smithman which German LE appear to have ruled out) so there's nothing anyone else can add to point the finger at CB. What I would be interested to know about is whether any of the witnesses who saw men matching his description prior to the event have been questioned. People like TS and JJ. There's been no mention of their thoughts on CB relayed in the press from what I can see. Possibly because they are off-limits. Who knows.

 

[Anxala]

But if you have a concrete link between MM and CB, just one pic or video maybe, that could even show MM alive but togehter with some DNA or the body itself, some of the verdicts could likely be seen as evidence to fill up a charge against the suspect. Without being pushed to prove the kidnapping from 5A in detail!

Yes, I agree. I can see why 5A and all 3rd May-related matters may have no relevance whatsoever to their investigation.

But Wolters has said they have no body or body parts (implicit in which is no DNA, yes?) which takes us back to the question of what exactly it is they actually have and how what they have is, for them, so conclusive.

It can't just be witness accounts. That would be madness. So it has to be witness accounts plus (a) imagery/footage of CB with MM and/or (b) footage of CB referring to MM in absolutely unambiguous terms that leave no doubt as to his role in her death.

That's why the prosecuters are keen on digging and asking for holiday pics if you ask me.

Although holiday pics that might feature CB in the vicinity on the day still wouldn't provide anything remotely usable as proof of anything.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, just following on from your train of thought and trying to make sense of things.

 

[Dlk79]

Approximately how far down the dirt track is that, about 1/3 mile?

You fancying taking a drive down Ted to check it out? Wish someone would, just to put our inquisitive minds to rest. Not that it's probably much relevance to the case but it does bug me. Does anyone have any FB friends near Barao Sao Joao they can ask?

 

[tedtink]

... guessing further...
2. maybe HCW also knows that the carrying out from the building was later than both those sightings (JT and S family) ???

IMO HCW has had to put a lot of faith in HB's statement.
I wonder exactly how much detail CB actually told HB?
It could be that they have been gathering evidence based on HB's statement which has allowed them to rule things out like Tannerman, Smithman and T9 checks.
If they have, indeed, found evidence based on HB's statement, coupled with any photo's etc, this, in turn, renders HB a credible imo,

 

[SuperdadV8]

Yes, I agree. I can see why 5A and all 3rd May-related matters may have no relevance whatsoever to their investigation.

But Wolters has said they have no body or body parts (implicit in which is no DNA, yes?) which takes us back to the question of what exactly it is they actually have and how what they have is, for them, so conclusive.

It can't just be witness accounts. That would be madness. So it has to be witness accounts plus (a) imagery/footage of CB with MM and/or (b) footage of CB referring to MM in absolutely unambiguous terms that leave no doubt as to his role in her death.



Although holiday pics that might feature CB in the vicinity on the day still wouldn't provide anything remotely usable as proof of anything.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, just following on from your train of thought and trying to make sense of things.

IMO the pics of holidaymakers should be just relevant for movements of the suspect at the time and with them, possible places, houses, vehicles or witnesses to obtain possible evidence.

 

[tedtink]

You fancying taking a drive down Ted to check it out? Wish someone would, just to put our inquisitive minds to rest. Not that it's probably much relevance to the case but it does bug me. Does anyone have any FB friends near Barao Sao Joao they can ask?

Ha!
Tried to measure it on google maps but I failed the Girl Guides orienteering badge DLk.
When I was Google mapping yesterday I was rather frustrated that I just couldn't be there in person checking it out!

 

[tedtink]

I agree. It is not necessary for the charge they are bringing (murder) to explain any of the events or anomalies of the witnesses timeline.

One thing to bear in mind too is HB's statement regarding CB's confession. It could be LE already know the sequence of events of that night, and there is simply nothing the original witnesses can add to it, or that they don't need them to. Or, that it contradicts elements of what they claimed.

Ultimately, none of the witnesses saw the intruder (unless he was Tannerman/Smithman which German LE appear to have ruled out) so there's nothing anyone else can add to point the finger at CB. What I would be interested to know about is whether any of the witnesses who saw men matching his description prior to the event have been questioned. People like TS and JJ. There's been no mention of their thoughts on CB relayed in the press from what I can see. Possibly because they are off-limits. Who knows.

Posted my similar post before I read this post, although not as eloquently as you.
Wasn't copying you honest!

 

[redplanet]

Approximately how far down the dirt track is that, about 1/3 mile?

Yes 0.28 miles

 

[tedtink]

Yes 0.28 miles

It was clearly a place that CB was familiar with and perhaps he felt comfortable there, so would fit a 'crime scene' location in that sense.
Could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like a remote enough place to have taken MM.
Surely LE will have checked this place out already.

 

[misty48]

IMO the pics of holidaymakers should be just relevant for movements of the suspect at the time and with them, possible places, houses, vehicles or witnesses to obtain possible evidence.

If there are photos or videos of him, taken by holidaymakers, in or around Luz before 8pm on 3/5/07, the clothing he was pictured wearing may be of importance to German police in relation to other visual/photographic evidence from after 8pm.