Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #26

[mrjitty]

Let me guess, he makes a big deal about there being no other fingerprints on the window while ignoring the fact the door was open anyway or that an intruder could have worn gloves. And he probably plays on the fact they found no forensic trace of CB, while ignoring that they also failed to find forensic traces of other people we know for a fact were in the apartment that night. I expect he also fails to mention that apart from one saliva sample, the only other forensic evidence they actually tested were hairs. (The blood behind the sofa was only found and tested much later on).

He overplays the forensic thing to the public all the time, making out as if they swabbed down every inch of 5A or something and tested for DNA traces everywhere when all they really did was collect a load of hairs. It's not as though you're definitely going to leave a hair every place you've been, especially if you aren't there for very long. Less so again if you're wearing a hat which is what a lot of burglars do. Fiona Payne was in 5A for hours right after MM disappeared before the Forensic sweep was carried out and they didn't find one single hair belonging to her.

This.

It was also a big misunderstanding in the Knox case. Forensics don't swab whole rooms. They look for samples or obvious things that might have been touched. So it's completely possible for FP to be in the room for hours, yet not get picked up.

The biggest problem with GA's theory is that it just makes no sense. He believes MM died as the result of an accident but the parents then fabricated an abduction to cover it all up. Why? If it was an accident, no matter how much you thought you might be blamed for negligence or whatever, faking a kidnap just isn't a rational thing to do. Staging that they died in some other way is one thing, but how many known cases in history have there been where a child has died accidentally and the parents have staged a fake kidnapping to hide it?

To be fair I don't think this was so much their exclusive theory, but rather a potential misdemeanour they hoped to get KM to 'fess up to, so they could recover the body.

Not only that, he thinks the Tapas 7 were all in on this deception, some of whom the McCanns barely knew. And following on from this unplanned 'accident', he thinks the parents smuggled the body out of the OC and into some unknown freezer they somehow found, then caused a media frenzy over a fake abduction before going back to retrieve the body in their rented car weeks later to dispose of it. It's absurd, makes absolutely no sense in terms of plausibility or motive.

What I take from the Lisbon reporting (such as it was) is that the view of PJ is not that "T7 were all in on it" but that T7 version contained obvious inconsistencies such that it couldn't be accepted - but it could not be determined why that was.

We've discussed many of these points before, so no need to rehash - it remains a curiosity that PJ could not resolve and frankly the rogatories just added more mystery.

This is actually the only reason I'd be tempted to read the book, because I hoped it would go into Lisbon in some detail. Multiple detectives gave testimony as to what the evidence was, and what PJ's theory was.

 

[Dlk79]

To be fair I don't think this was so much their exclusive theory, but rather a potential misdemeanour they hoped to get KM to 'fess up to, so they could recover the body.

What I take from the Lisbon reporting (such as it was) is that the view of PJ is not that "T7 were all in on it" but that T7 version contained obvious inconsistencies such that it couldn't be accepted - but it could not be determined why that was.

I'm not talking about what theories the PJ might have been investigating. I'm referring specifically to the hypothesis GA put forward in his book and subsequent interviews. There was an interview in El Mundo in which he was asked some probing questions about his theory. Here are some extracts that address the points I was making. Some of the translation may be a little different as the transcript is from a site I cannot link.

Gonçalo Amaral: 'Gerry McCann escondió el cadáver de Madeleine en la playa' | elmundo.es

Question – You defend the theory that the parents are guilty of what happened to Madeleine McCann.

Answer – No. That is not in the book.

.... Nobody saw anything strange. We investigated all the persons who commit theft in the area. There were no unknown fingerprints in the apartment, of course they could have used gloves, that is true, but that could not have been the case. Furthermore, the parents were the first to speak of death. And it is normal to think that their daughter could have died, but they have never admitted this in public. I do not believe that the parents killed her.

Q - So, what are we talking about?

A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping solution). We never had access to the girl’s medical history, so we don’t know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details.

Q - What do you think that could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl did not have a a heavy sleep, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa bellow the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out,moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.

Q - The girl falls from the sofa, dies with the blow and the parents find her.

A - The mother. It is the mother who finds the girl dead.

Q - But I am trying to think out an idea. How can a mother who has just found her daughter dead on the floor decides to hide the corpse? And how do you hide the corpse of a girl of nearly four years old so that no one can't find it?

A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden.

Q - Did Gerry McCann buried his dead daughter on the beach and then unearthed and put her in the boot after 23 days later?

A - We do not know. The Irish [witness] that I have told you about saw Gerry on television with a child in his arms arriving in the UK and stated that it was the same image they had seen back in May in Portugal. That man spent two days without sleeping when he realized what he had found, but nobody has talked about them. And what one of the Irish has said is logical, a man with a child in his arms toward the beach.

Q - But this implies that the whole group, the nine people who eat dinner that night, had agreed to lie.

A - All of them. Because, if you do not know, the British law regarding negligence and child welfare is very strict. They left their children alone in the apartments. In the UK, if you leave a child alone for half an hour, you lose the custody. After Madeleine's death, if it had been made public that it was an accident, everyone could have lost custody.

Q - So you consider that one of the reasons for the parents and friends to have lied is because they feared to loose their children's custody.

A - Yes, yes. Nobody has opened legal proceedings for what happened, for the negligence, and we have asked to the British authorities why. Have they answered? Of course not.

Q - What is your opinion?

A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead.

Q - You said that the girl was frozen.

A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, happened a similar situation with that of the shopping bags, which melt and then the water is transferred to the car.

This is why I say his hypothesis makes no sense. He thinks it entirely plausible that MM fell off the sofa that night and KM discovered her body before coming up with an elaborate plan on the spot with GM to bury her body on the beach. And why? Because they would supposedly worried about losing custody of the other children. And for the same reason, all the Tapas group colluded to come up with a false version of events that night. It's just a ludicrous theory. And he doesn't explain at which point in this timeline they transferred MM's body from a beach to a freezer or why they would need to do such a thing. He proposes it only as a way to explain DNA fluids found in a car that the McCanns didn't even acquire until weeks after the event (even though the DNA could equally have belonged to one of MM's siblings since it was only an 80% match to MM's profile).

 

[mrjitty]

OK. I agree that is all a bit convoluted!

 

[worldwatcher]

I'm not talking about what theories the PJ might have been investigating. I'm referring specifically to the hypothesis GA put forward in his book and subsequent interviews. There was an interview in El Mundo in which he was asked some probing questions about his theory. Here are some extracts that address the points I was making. Some of the translation may be a little different as the transcript is from a site I cannot link.

Gonçalo Amaral: 'Gerry McCann escondió el cadáver de Madeleine en la playa' | elmundo.es

Question – You defend the theory that the parents are guilty of what happened to Madeleine McCann.

Answer – No. That is not in the book.

.... Nobody saw anything strange. We investigated all the persons who commit theft in the area. There were no unknown fingerprints in the apartment, of course they could have used gloves, that is true, but that could not have been the case. Furthermore, the parents were the first to speak of death. And it is normal to think that their daughter could have died, but they have never admitted this in public. I do not believe that the parents killed her.

Q - So, what are we talking about?

A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping solution). We never had access to the girl’s medical history, so we don’t know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details.

Q - What do you think that could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl did not have a a heavy sleep, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa bellow the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out,moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.

Q - The girl falls from the sofa, dies with the blow and the parents find her.

A - The mother. It is the mother who finds the girl dead.

Q - But I am trying to think out an idea. How can a mother who has just found her daughter dead on the floor decides to hide the corpse? And how do you hide the corpse of a girl of nearly four years old so that no one can't find it?

A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden.

Q - Did Gerry McCann buried his dead daughter on the beach and then unearthed and put her in the boot after 23 days later?

A - We do not know. The Irish [witness] that I have told you about saw Gerry on television with a child in his arms arriving in the UK and stated that it was the same image they had seen back in May in Portugal. That man spent two days without sleeping when he realized what he had found, but nobody has talked about them. And what one of the Irish has said is logical, a man with a child in his arms toward the beach.

Q - But this implies that the whole group, the nine people who eat dinner that night, had agreed to lie.

A - All of them. Because, if you do not know, the British law regarding negligence and child welfare is very strict. They left their children alone in the apartments. In the UK, if you leave a child alone for half an hour, you lose the custody. After Madeleine's death, if it had been made public that it was an accident, everyone could have lost custody.

Q - So you consider that one of the reasons for the parents and friends to have lied is because they feared to loose their children's custody.

A - Yes, yes. Nobody has opened legal proceedings for what happened, for the negligence, and we have asked to the British authorities why. Have they answered? Of course not.

Q - What is your opinion?

A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead.

Q - You said that the girl was frozen.

A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, happened a similar situation with that of the shopping bags, which melt and then the water is transferred to the car.

This is why I say his hypothesis makes no sense. He thinks it entirely plausible that MM fell off the sofa that night and KM discovered her body before coming up with an elaborate plan on the spot with GM to bury her body on the beach. And why? Because they would supposedly worried about losing custody of the other children. And for the same reason, all the Tapas group colluded to come up with a false version of events that night. It's just a ludicrous theory. And he doesn't explain at which point in this timeline they transferred MM's body from a beach to a freezer or why they would need to do such a thing. He proposes it only as a way to explain DNA fluids found in a car that the McCanns didn't even acquire until weeks after the event (even though the DNA could equally have belonged to one of MM's siblings since it was only an 80% match to MM's profile).

Couldn't agree more,his theory makes no sense,at all.All he does is creating smoke and damaged the investigation of MM and JC.
With his bizarre obsessions,which sadly pays off in writing,he really does not seemed to care that kidnappers are walking freely.

Hard to believe that ,there are people who read his crap ,knowing that evidence found in the apartment was contaminating with cigarette ashes.

Talking about cigarettes:
"PILE of discarded cigarette butts could have been the link to finding missing Madeleine McCann.

Missing link overlooked in the Madeleine McCann case - Olive Press News Spain

And this:
"Detectives failed to send her bedding for analysis, even though an abductor could have left fibres, fingerprints or DNA on it."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/madeleine-how-the-police-ruined-the-forensic-evidence-in-her-bedroom-6646747.html?amp

Next time GA gets interviewed,I hope a journalist will ask about this,instead of promoting GA's bizarre theory's!

 

[Lilly b]

Couldn't agree more,his theory makes no sense,at all.All he does is creating smoke and damaged the investigation of MM and JC.
With his bizarre obsessions,which sadly pays off in writing,he really does not seemed to care that kidnappers are walking freely.

Hard to believe that ,there are people who read his crap ,knowing that evidence found in the apartment was contaminating with cigarette ashes.

Talking about cigarettes:
"PILE of discarded cigarette butts could have been the link to finding missing Madeleine McCann.

Missing link overlooked in the Madeleine McCann case - Olive Press News Spain

And this:
"Detectives failed to send her bedding for analysis, even though an abductor could have left fibres, fingerprints or DNA on it."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/madeleine-how-the-police-ruined-the-forensic-evidence-in-her-bedroom-6646747.html?amp

Next time GA gets interviewed,I hope a journalist will ask about this,instead of promoting GA's bizarre theory's!

Totally agree, no sense at all, and as someone mentioned prev, he's doing this just for the money.
He's just going round in circles over stuff that's already known really.
I wonder if HB, when giving all his info, has said how CB got in and out of 5a, im sure when CB confessed to him, he would of given most of that info, so HCW will already have this covered

 

[Chiatos]

GA also talked about marks on MM body/wrist that PJ observed on the photos.

Maddie McCann tinha marca suspeita num pulso

Again, not CB related.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: GA is pathetic.

 

[misty48]

Can any of our Portuguese language speakers please translate what NF was in possession of when she was allegedly detained at Faro airport 5 days after Madeleine went missing?

 

[Chiatos]

Madeleine McCann witness so crucial cops sealed off entire hotel and swept the building for bugs while interviewing him

''Busching later told me they had swept the place for bugs and microphones because what he had to say about Madeleine and Christian B was very important.

''But he never actually told me what it was that he told Scotland Yard about Christian B and Madeleine, it must have been important because he came back a few days later with lots of money and he was hoppa (drunk) hoppa (drunk).''

Busching is not important

 

[Chiatos]

I'm not talking about what theories the PJ might have been investigating. I'm referring specifically to the hypothesis GA put forward in his book and subsequent interviews. There was an interview in El Mundo in which he was asked some probing questions about his theory. Here are some extracts that address the points I was making. Some of the translation may be a little different as the transcript is from a site I cannot link.

Gonçalo Amaral: 'Gerry McCann escondió el cadáver de Madeleine en la playa' | elmundo.es

Question – You defend the theory that the parents are guilty of what happened to Madeleine McCann.

Answer – No. That is not in the book.

.... Nobody saw anything strange. We investigated all the persons who commit theft in the area. There were no unknown fingerprints in the apartment, of course they could have used gloves, that is true, but that could not have been the case. Furthermore, the parents were the first to speak of death. And it is normal to think that their daughter could have died, but they have never admitted this in public. I do not believe that the parents killed her.

Q - So, what are we talking about?

A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping solution). We never had access to the girl’s medical history, so we don’t know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details.

Q - What do you think that could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl did not have a a heavy sleep, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa bellow the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out,moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.

Q - The girl falls from the sofa, dies with the blow and the parents find her.

A - The mother. It is the mother who finds the girl dead.

Q - But I am trying to think out an idea. How can a mother who has just found her daughter dead on the floor decides to hide the corpse? And how do you hide the corpse of a girl of nearly four years old so that no one can't find it?

A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden.

Q - Did Gerry McCann buried his dead daughter on the beach and then unearthed and put her in the boot after 23 days later?

A - We do not know. The Irish [witness] that I have told you about saw Gerry on television with a child in his arms arriving in the UK and stated that it was the same image they had seen back in May in Portugal. That man spent two days without sleeping when he realized what he had found, but nobody has talked about them. And what one of the Irish has said is logical, a man with a child in his arms toward the beach.

Q - But this implies that the whole group, the nine people who eat dinner that night, had agreed to lie.

A - All of them. Because, if you do not know, the British law regarding negligence and child welfare is very strict. They left their children alone in the apartments. In the UK, if you leave a child alone for half an hour, you lose the custody. After Madeleine's death, if it had been made public that it was an accident, everyone could have lost custody.

Q - So you consider that one of the reasons for the parents and friends to have lied is because they feared to loose their children's custody.

A - Yes, yes. Nobody has opened legal proceedings for what happened, for the negligence, and we have asked to the British authorities why. Have they answered? Of course not.

Q - What is your opinion?

A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead.

Q - You said that the girl was frozen.

A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, happened a similar situation with that of the shopping bags, which melt and then the water is transferred to the car.

This is why I say his hypothesis makes no sense. He thinks it entirely plausible that MM fell off the sofa that night and KM discovered her body before coming up with an elaborate plan on the spot with GM to bury her body on the beach. And why? Because they would supposedly worried about losing custody of the other children. And for the same reason, all the Tapas group colluded to come up with a false version of events that night. It's just a ludicrous theory. And he doesn't explain at which point in this timeline they transferred MM's body from a beach to a freezer or why they would need to do such a thing. He proposes it only as a way to explain DNA fluids found in a car that the McCanns didn't even acquire until weeks after the event (even though the DNA could equally have belonged to one of MM's siblings since it was only an 80% match to MM's profile).

All GA had to do then, was to find that freezer.
He didn't even look for it.

 

[Chiatos]

Can any of our Portuguese language speakers please translate what NF was in possession of when she was allegedly detained at Faro airport 5 days after Madeleine went missing?

At what time stamp?

 

[sandy_80]

I think they have been taking lots of hints from the jonbenet case ( fake kidnapping ) ..however i see interesting parallels with another high profile case ( Lindbergh baby kidnapping )...the key suspect was also german and still ppl still accused the father of a cover up...but the difference in these cases that we have a body and a certified murder

 

[Betty_Boop88]

At what time stamp?

Around 30mins, @Chiatos

 

[Anxala]

I doubt he'll feel disgraced even if CB is convicted.

GA has a huge following, akin to a religion, who will always believe CB is the 'patsy' whatever happens. He'll always have support of others across the net who hold him as some kind of demigod.

As the saying goes.......'If you have a dogma, you'll spend the rest of your life feeding and walking it'.

^ Ha! I like that.

 

[Nikolai_ff]

I think they have been taking lots of hints from the jonbenet case ( fake kidnapping ) ..however i see interesting parallels with another high profile case ( Lindbergh baby kidnapping )...the key suspect was also german and still ppl still accused the father of a cover up...but the difference in these cases that we have a body and a certified murder

And similar “suspects” push these narratives.

 

[Anxala]

OK. I agree that is all a bit convoluted!

It is a bit convoluted but then so are the rogatories of the T9. That's a fact.

GA could only ever work with the material his investigation was provided with. In the absence of unconvoluted explanations for a multitude of inconsistencies in the accounts of the T9 as regards that entire day, it's not surprising that he still feels entitled to think that the truth of what actually happened to MM is yet to be arrived at.

The BKA investigation - and hopefully successful conclusion - will presumably fill in all the blanks and make sense of all those inconsistencies to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

Can any of our Portuguese language speakers please translate what NF was in possession of when she was allegedly detained at Faro airport 5 days after Madeleine went missing?

Litteraly - "1 Spray of Gas". (Most likely pepper spray or something like that).

 

[vermisstekindersuche]

And at this point i will leave you guys discussing this matter untill something relevant is revealed.

At current time (after all the latest news) I think CB did not kill MM at all. Also I think that this is going nowhere and the BKA investigation doesn't follow any regular method. Maybe they were in hope to get some "evidence" or forensic material from PJ and lacking that they have nothing solid to charge and have to keep on delaying this ? Well, we will see in time but if they didn't charge CB by now it's highly unlikely that they will ever do so. I know that the majority of you guys will think otherwise but for me I don't see any "hope" in BKA winning this in court. So I will wait fo now.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I do not buy the latest reports about HCW's alleged statements.

Why should a prosecutor tell what evidence he has and what he doesn't have. And that he is now able to charge on circumstancial evidence, but nit before the next year.

That makes no sense at all and he already stated in the past that he was surprised by himself about all the things he allegedly has said to the media.

To me, all of that sounds like a kind of canard...

 

[ChatteringBirds]

he already stated in the past that he was surprised by himself about all the things he allegedly has said to the media.

To me, all of that sounds like a kind of canard...

Do you remember when / in which article he said he's surprised about what he's allegedly said? (I'd like to read it.)

Does he give all of these interviews to the tabloids in German, and perhaps the translation to English is poor, or does he speak English, and perhaps he's not using the exact right phrase to express something, so he doesn't realize how it would be interpreted by native English speakers?

What is going on with these tabloid interviews, because I think you make a good point about it not making sense for him to discuss the evidence, SuperdadV8.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Do you remember when / in which article he said he's surprised about what he's allegedly said? (I'd like to read it.)

Does he give all of these interviews to the tabloids in German, and perhaps the translation to English is poor, or does he speak English, and perhaps he's not using the exact right phrase to express something, so he doesn't realize how it would be interpreted by native English speakers?

What is going on with these tabloid interviews, because I think you make a good point about it not making sense for him to discuss the evidence, SuperdadV8.

Not a lot to read because it's a podcast, but his surprise is written in the text.

"Tatort Niedersachsen": Der Fall Maddie - Braunschweiger Zeitung

But here a little bit more info on this topic.

Fall Madeleine McCann – auf die spektakuläre Wendung folgte die Ernüchterung