Madonna Angers the Vatican

[southcitymom]

Because Jesus' suffering on the cross is the symbol of our religion and has been for centuries. It's the most important part of what makes us Christian.

While I agree that the cross is an honored and revered symbol of Christianity, Jesus's suffering on the cross is NOT the symbol of Christianity and is NOT the most important part of what makes us Christian. Jesus's life actions and teachings are the most important part of what makes us Christian. What he taught (that man can have a personal relationship with a loving God without jumping through numerous hoops or depending on an intercessor to do so) was revolutionary at the time. It remains revolutionary today.

The teachings of the Catholic church (and please hear that I respect Catholicism, I am married to an Irish Catholic) - both historically and currently - often position women in subordinate roles. In fact, the teachings of many organized religions (Islam certiably included) position women in subordinate roles. It is not such a leap to imagine a strong, chart-your-own-path type of woman speaking out (singing out, acting out) against the Catholic church.

 

[Sherlockmom]

Here's some links to some older stories about this tour: This one claims she shouted an obscenity at an image of the President and likened Tony Blair to Hitler. What stupidity. I guess History wasn't her strong suit.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2192262,00.html

Well maybe her accountant can cut a check to a few more orphans and she can redeem herself. Not surprised that she needs to adopt an orphan now too to balance the scales. There isn't much left for her to do to shock audiences. We've seen just about everything <big yawn>. I guess live sex or a live murder is all that is left. Will there be enough orphans to cover that one?

If she really wants to be edgy and take risks that we all can admire her for how about she start mocking Muslims? Her mocking of complacent peaceful Christians isn't very brave or risky in my book. Now when she risks having her throat slit or her head chopped off then I'll be impressed. Madonna is a coward. There is nothing edgy about her. She and her celebrity friends all think the same way so what is so rebellious about her?

And now she invites the Pope to her Rome concert and mocks him as well:

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2006/08/04/madonna_invites_pope_to_see_her_crucifie


"Madonna's spokeswoman Liz Rosenberg tells the New York Daily News, "I think the Pope would enjoy the show and would applaud her performance. He has an open invitation to see for himself the eloquence and beauty that Madonna expresses for humanity while performing her poignant song 'Live To Tell.'"

And here is an article from May where she defends her presentation giving the excuse that she is using the money for AIDS. Good grief!! And she doesn't think Jesus would be offended. I'm surprised she is so close to Jesus that she can read his mind. I guess no matter what you do as long as you drop a few bucks in the AIDS box you are absolved.

And this on-stage masturbation during this tour causing another controversy with the church. She won't let her own kids watch this stuff but she puts it out there for other people's kids to see. I guess her kids must be a bit better than ours?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5006008.stm

And we'll see if MG's next movie gets this much enthusiam from the media:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/5005352.stm

 

[michelle]

Live to Tell was always my favorite song by Madonna, While I do not agree with everything she does I grew up listening to her. I remember I was in the 3rd grade when she came out with Borderline and Holiday. Through this years though its obvious she does things to get a reaction out of people, and it works.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>While I agree that the cross is an honored and revered symbol of Christianity, Jesus's suffering on the cross is NOT the symbol of Christianity and is NOT the most important part of what makes us Christian. Jesus's life actions and teachings are the most important part of what makes us Christian.<<


I don't want to get into a religious debate with you as Catholics have a different viewpoint on redemption than Lutherans do. But I believe that you are wrong about this. The cross is the symbol of Christianity. That is why it is depicted on the covers of so many prayer books, bibles, hymnals etc. As I said before, we wear it around our necks and hand crucifixes in our homes. Without words a person who sees the cross automatically knows what is being shown. And I was taught that it was Jesus's suffering and dying on the cross for our sins that gains us a place in heaven and without this happening heaven was not attainable for us. So for a majority of Christians the cross and Jesus' crucifixtion and subsequent resurrection is what our faith is all about. It's a powerful Christian image that cannot be denied. The Pope happens to agree with me too

>> What he taught (that man can have a personal relationship with a loving God without jumping through numerous hoops or depending on an intercessor to do so) was revolutionary at the time. <<

Only through his suffering and dying on the cross. Before he was sent to redeem us we could not attain heaven. At least most Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic believe that.

>>The teachings of the Catholic church (and please hear that I respect Catholicism, I am married to an Irish Catholic) - both historically and currently - often position women in subordinate roles. <<

I never felt that way all of the years that I was Catholic and Lutheran. I believe that for Catholics, women have a different role. And again, you are making quite a big assumption that Madonna is acting out because she was a repressed Catholic. I don't think that Madonna was ever a big church goer and she left home at a young age to strike out on her own. She hardly stayed home, got married and dragged six kids with her to church every Sunday and then afterwards drank herself into a stupor and took prozac all day to escape from her repression.

You have a very odd definition of the word repression. As I said. We live in America. Women are free to make many choices. They can even leave the church without fear of death. While some churches have very defined roles for women other Christian churches have women pastors and reverends. Heck, most Catholic women I know have no trouble bucking the church whenever it appeals to them. If they want to use birth control they use it. If they want to have abortions they have them. I hardly call that repressed. There is no comparison between the way women are treated as Christians and women as Muslims. If she really wants to strike out againsts women and religious oppression, as I said before, she could of come out on stage wearing a burka with a bomb attached to her. Or how about coming out in a burka with a video of a muslim rape victim being stoned. How about one of those videos we've seen of a muslim woman being burned alive by her own family because she wanted a divorce? Now that would be brave!

I'd like to see her take her act to the Middle East and see how well it's received there. This woman is a pathetic coward.

 

[Nova]

Sherlockmom wrote:

If she really wants to be edgy and take risks that we all can admire her for how about she start mocking Muslims?

I can't speak for Madonna, but as a different sort of artist I can tell you that it wouldn't occur to me to write about Islam because it is so foreign to me. But I was raised a Christian and Christian symbolism has great meaning for me, even if I don't have the same theological ideas I used to have. So, yes, I use Christian symbolism and how I use it depends on the piece. (For what it's worth, a few posters here know one of my works and I think they will agree it is more than merely respectful toward Catholicism, even though my upbringing was evangelical Protestant.)

I don't blame some people for being disturbed by the way Madonna uses Christian imagery; but it is hers to use as much as the next person.

And as for what would or wouldn't offend Jesus, that's open to question. Personally, I don't think he'd bat an eye at Madonna's work, but he'd cringe at many of the ways his name is used by some who call themselves "devout Christians." (And by that last remark, I certainly do NOT mean Sherlockmom or Dark Knight.)

 

[tybee204]

Those that were crucified on cross's with Christ were thieves and criminals and he took them into heaven. I believe Christ likely understands Madonna's path even if mortals don’t. Honestly I would think Jesus would be offended by all those that are constantly offended in His name.
IMO he would be offended by those that condemn in His name and by those that pass judgement in His name.

 

[narlacat]

Those that were crucified on cross's with Christ were thieves and criminals and he took them into heaven. I believe Christ likely understands Madonna's path even if mortals don’t. Honestly I would think Jesus would be offended by all those that are constantly offended in His name.
IMO he would be offended by those that condemn in His name and by those that pass judgement in His name.

I couldn't agree more Tybee.

My God is mortified by what goes on in the name of God.
Jesus is way cool like you say and understands more than we will ever know, he is so not worried about me saying 'Jesus Christ' when I stub my toe, he's somewhat beyond that
Still, I'm sure he is sick of me blaming him for everything lol, but I'm working on it he knows it is more a bad habit than anything else

 

[Sherlockmom]

On a lighter note I ran across this while looking for a past article about Madonna's new show:


"Letterman the other night said crucifixion was appropriate for Madonna 'considering how many times she has been nailed'.

Forgive me if I don't recall who made these comments. My goal isn't to single anyone out but to avoid multiple postings as much as possible.

"I don't blame some people for being disturbed by the way Madonna uses Christian imagery; but it is hers to use as much as the next person."

Lest someone misunderstand where I'm coming from I will not dispute her right to free speech at all. But just like MG free speech is really not free. There are consequences sometimes for your free speech especially when it offends a large group of people. What I am trying to point out is the bias of some and mainly the media treatment of these cases. It seems you are given a pass if the speech or action is approved of or agreed with by the media and you are crucified (no pun intended) if you happen to have an opposing view. I do believe that Madonna should be allowed to perform her act and since she is so brave I believe that she can handle the little bit of criticism she will get.

"I believe Christ likely understands Madonna's path even if mortals don’t. Honestly I would think Jesus would be offended by all those that are constantly offended in His name.
IMO he would be offended by those that condemn in His name and by those that pass judgement in His name."

Well I can't claim to be a close confidant of Christ so I wouldn't know how he will judge Madonna. I can only judge her earthly behavior here on earth. I'll leave the judgement of her eternal soul to God.

We all pass judgement on our fellow man everyday. That is why we have jails and prisons, courts and juries. Sometimes judgement is confused with discretion. Discretion is a usefool tool that keeps us from wandering into the wrong neighborhoods and getting mugged. The same people who judge George Bush, or Mel Gibson don't want Madonna to be judged. I ask what is the difference between what MG said about Jews and what Madonna is doing?

Well, some say that she is an artist. Well so is MG. Well then she is expressing her Catholic repression. Well, MG may be expressing his own repressions of one kind or another. The real difference, that no one will admit, is that MG is a Christian. And as a Christian there are those that hate and fear him. Therefore he will be judged and no excuses will be made for him being an artist. Instead of saying words, perhaps Mel should have painted a picture. Then his hate speech would have just been art and all would have been okay?

Well I think I've made my point. I find most of these celebrities to be very ignorant bigoted people in general with little knowledge of the real world and history and a very narrow viewpoint. They are also quite naive. Most of them rather uneducated and a great majority of them with either mental illness or histories of substance abuse. Why anyone would actually listen to anything they had to say and think it worthwhile is beyond me. But I've become convinced that the reason the media does what it does is because it's successful. There are actually people who they can sway and brainwash in this manner.

 

[tybee204]

I dont condemn Mel Gibson for his words. His actions of DUI violated the law and the Courts will judge him on that. His words IMO are him fighting his own demons. All of us wear our "Crown of Thorns" in one manner or another and I imagine the lessons learned from his father are a heavy crown.

IMO the lesson so many children are learning about Islam today will be their "Crown of Thorns" in 40 years. When their generation is at peace with Muslims and they have grown up being taught that Muslims are evil murders.

 

[sandraladeda]

Obviously Madonna's latest stunt will be offensive to those who hold the symbol of the cross with great reverance. If one does not share this view, then one might find it difficult to see why all the fuss. However, if Madonna were to substitute "American Flag" for "Crucifix", there would be a great cry for boycotts and protests, imo, and rightly so. Her actions would still be a form of freedom of expression, but there would be a lot fewer people shrugging their shoulders, saying "what's the big deal?"

If Madonna's Crucifix imagery isn't bothersome to you, consider something that would be bothersome to you - and now you know, that's how some Christians/Catholics feel.

imho

 

[narlacat]

Obviously Madonna's latest stunt will be offensive to those who hold the symbol of the cross with great reverance. If one does not share this view, then one might find it difficult to see why all the fuss. However, if Madonna were to substitute "American Flag" for "Crucifix", there would be a great cry for boycotts and protests, imo, and rightly so. Her actions would still be a form of freedom of expression, but there would be a lot fewer people shrugging their shoulders, saying "what's the big deal?"

If Madonna's Crucifix imagery isn't bothersome to you, consider something that would be bothersome to you - and now you know, that's how some Christians/Catholics feel.

imho

I'm sorry for appearing irreverant, of course you are right Sandra.
I can see how people would/could be offended by Madonna.
But (and I know I shouldn't start a sentence with but!) she really is just expressing herself, she is a performer!, she is American!, she likes her power!, people who are offended should just keep their power and ignore her.
I've always just liked her music and really don't think she intentionally sets out to hurt people.

 

[Dark Knight]

IMO the lesson so many children are learning about Islam today will be their "Crown of Thorns" in 40 years. When their generation is at peace with Muslims and they have grown up being taught that Muslims are evil murders.

Sadly, in many places, such as Saudi Arabia, the children are taught the same thing about us and Jews.

 

[tybee204]

Sadly, in many places, such as Saudi Arabia, the children are taught the same thing about us and Jews.

Its a vicous circle. One generation after another.

 

[tybee204]

I grew up during Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movement and the Cold War so those were the targets of hate for my generation. My childrens generation grew up during 30 years of relative peace and progression so their world expanded. I now fear my grandchildren will be taught those same lessons of hate that were taught to my generation and the world will shrink again.

 

[southcitymom]

>While I agree that the cross is an honored and revered symbol of Christianity, Jesus's suffering on the cross is NOT the symbol of Christianity and is NOT the most important part of what makes us Christian. Jesus's life actions and teachings are the most important part of what makes us Christian.<<


I don't want to get into a religious debate with you as Catholics have a different viewpoint on redemption than Lutherans do. But I believe that you are wrong about this. The cross is the symbol of Christianity. That is why it is depicted on the covers of so many prayer books, bibles, hymnals etc. As I said before, we wear it around our necks and hand crucifixes in our homes. Without words a person who sees the cross automatically knows what is being shown. And I was taught that it was Jesus's suffering and dying on the cross for our sins that gains us a place in heaven and without this happening heaven was not attainable for us. So for a majority of Christians the cross and Jesus' crucifixtion and subsequent resurrection is what our faith is all about. It's a powerful Christian image that cannot be denied. The Pope happens to agree with me too

>> What he taught (that man can have a personal relationship with a loving God without jumping through numerous hoops or depending on an intercessor to do so) was revolutionary at the time. <<

Only through his suffering and dying on the cross. Before he was sent to redeem us we could not attain heaven. At least most Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic believe that.

>>The teachings of the Catholic church (and please hear that I respect Catholicism, I am married to an Irish Catholic) - both historically and currently - often position women in subordinate roles. <<

I never felt that way all of the years that I was Catholic and Lutheran. I believe that for Catholics, women have a different role. And again, you are making quite a big assumption that Madonna is acting out because she was a repressed Catholic. I don't think that Madonna was ever a big church goer and she left home at a young age to strike out on her own. She hardly stayed home, got married and dragged six kids with her to church every Sunday and then afterwards drank herself into a stupor and took prozac all day to escape from her repression.

You have a very odd definition of the word repression. As I said. We live in America. Women are free to make many choices. They can even leave the church without fear of death. While some churches have very defined roles for women other Christian churches have women pastors and reverends. Heck, most Catholic women I know have no trouble bucking the church whenever it appeals to them. If they want to use birth control they use it. If they want to have abortions they have them. I hardly call that repressed. There is no comparison between the way women are treated as Christians and women as Muslims. If she really wants to strike out againsts women and religious oppression, as I said before, she could of come out on stage wearing a burka with a bomb attached to her. Or how about coming out in a burka with a video of a muslim rape victim being stoned. How about one of those videos we've seen of a muslim woman being burned alive by her own family because she wanted a divorce? Now that would be brave!

I'd like to see her take her act to the Middle East and see how well it's received there. This woman is a pathetic coward.

I'm not Catholic OR Lutheran, so I definitely won't debate those things with you. I honor both traditions and all denominations in their search for the meaning of Christ's life. I understand that many Christians have been taught and believe what you do. But others have a different interpretation. I agreed and said in my posting that the Cross is the honored and revered symbol of Christianity. I just said that I didn't think Jesus's death is the most important thing about the religion.

I've not said in any of my postings that Madonna is repressed. That is a word others have used. I think she - like many people - perceives the religion of her youth (in her case, Catholocism) as oppressive, especially to women. It is not hard to imagine how she might feel this way.

In the Catholic Church, women are not allowed to hold the highest spiritual offices simply because they are female. Some people might consider that oppressive. In the Catholic Church, women who seek to control their reproductive lives via birth control are told that they are sinning. So they either have to live with the stigma of choosing to be a sinner, or allow themselves to bear children until the cows come home. Some people might consider this opporessive. I am glad you never felt oppressed by the Catholic Church. But some people do.

In that regards, Madonna's Crucifixation show is similar to Sinead O'Connor tearing up the Pope's picture on Saturday Night Live. These woman use their power and visibility to make statements. Women have been oppressed for many many years via various religious and political factions, so I can't get too upset when strong women thumb their noses at the establishment. I don't experience it as hate speech.

 

[Maral]

I can't speak for Madonna, but as a different sort of artist I can tell you that it wouldn't occur to me to write about Islam because it is so foreign to me. But I was raised a Christian and Christian symbolism has great meaning for me, even if I don't have the same theological ideas I used to have. So, yes, I use Christian symbolism and how I use it depends on the piece. (For what it's worth, a few posters here know one of my works and I think they will agree it is more than merely respectful toward Catholicism, even though my upbringing was evangelical Protestant.)

I can certainly vouch for that!

And as for what would or wouldn't offend Jesus, that's open to question. Personally, I don't think he'd bat an eye at Madonna's work, but he'd cringe at many of the ways his name is used by some who call themselves "devout Christians." (And by that last remark, I certainly do NOT mean Sherlockmom or Dark Knight.)

You are so right, Nova.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I would think any Christian would be offended by it. She just brought it to the Vatican's back yard this time, is all. Rome is rich in Christian history, obviously. But stunts like this should be distateful to all Christians anywhere. Even the Muslim and Jewish groups in Italy have condemned this stunt, which I appreciate.

Well, like I said, I'm pretty much offended by her no matter what she does. I don't think she's "persecuted," so other than trying to still be relevant at her advanced age in an effort to try and sell some tickets, I don't think she's got any real message. She's over and gasping for a last breath. Its sad really.

 

[BrendaStar]

Well, like I said, I'm pretty much offended by her no matter what she does.

Jeana, you said it so well. I am offended by this latest stunt of hers and I'm not even Christian. I think that she has really crossed the line this time.

 

[kk's mom]

I used to like Madonna, in her early days that is. She started to get too vulgar for me, almost embarrassing to watch actually. I have no idea what's up with her career these days. Her looks have changed drastically. Her concert get ups these days crack me up. Body suits....what's up with that? She looks like an idiot with her ugly arms (have you ever seen them?) and her bulging muscular legs. If she thinks that she looks stunning for someone her age, she needs to think again. She looks pretty gross to me........This latest stunt is probably something she's thought up to give her career the boost that it needs. Only makes me more repulsed by her and her antics.

 

[BrendaStar]

Well, Madge managed to offend most of the people most of the time with this latest stunt. Maybe she is trying to offend all of the people all of the time. All I can say is that she is a loser. :loser: :loser: :loser: