Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #4

[Armchair_Defective]

I’m sorry, but I’m just not buying this autopsy. I absolutely trust the parents and extended family when they say Nora would not have gone out alone. There is more to this story and I for one hope that they have a second autopsy back home.

Even if Nora had gone outside alone, why would she only be wearing underwear? Would she not have at least enough understanding to know that she’d need to at least put shoes on? I realise she needs help with dressing etc but really? And where are the few clothes she was wearing now?

Also, many are suggesting she would run and hide from rescuers. I fail to see how when she’d be becoming increasingly weak over days of starvation. She’d likely become gradually delirious. Surely someone would have come across her or at least seen signs of her living in the wild over the days of searching - it’s not likely she would be got far.

As much as I’d like to believe nobody else is involved, I just can’t. Either someone lured her or took her into the jungle and lost her, or she was taken and held, only to be released days before she was found. Too coincidental that she’s found by the waterfall she was so desperate to see, a day after the shaman did his bit. AMOO.

However much you trust the parent's opinion about her not venturing outside it's still just an opinion, a belief. They thought they knew her character but it was not an unchangeable fact. That's why the police were treating this both as missing persons and possible abduction. Families don't always know a victim as well as they believe.

As for why Nora didn't put shoes and clothing on? It was pretty warm, much warmer than London has been recently. If Nora couldn't grasp concepts she probably wasn't really planning anything at all, just saw somethings that interested her outside and kept going until she was lost imo.

 

[Blamhappy]

I’ve seen 100’s of dead bodies and no I have hardly ever observed them to be in a foetal position, in fact I don’t recall any that come to mind and that’s from both natural causes of death and otherwise (murder etc)

Thank you. That’s what I thought. It’s natural to guess, but we can’t use pure guesses to decide what probably happened, surely?

 

[Blamhappy]

Children with sensory issues, not sure of the technical term, might prefer to be in their underwear. Or without clothes. Shyness or not. Nora was reported to have been sleeping in only the underwear.

Someone keeping her then releasing, what was their point? In most cases it would be for deviant purposes but she was untouched. Not even hurt with scratches on her limb or any signs of abuse on the body - no binding marks, no forceful holds on her limbs etc. She was then kept for 7+ days for no reason then released? There was no ransom demand in all those days. If they were afraid after the news coverage/search then decided to let her go after a week, wouldn't it be smarter to transport her away and drop her elsewhere.

Also if she was kept and fed, the PM would show this. When she last ate, what she ate etc.

Exactly. In my opinion, it’s very unlikely that there was a crime here.

 

[Kiva]

I refer you to this.



a spirit had her and shaman bloke was going to persuade spirit to return her. I mean, well...

I wouldn't take the shaman's words so literally. By "persuading spirit" he could as well mean "praying" or some kind of religious ritual.

In my country we have many clairvoyants (I hope it's the right word) who are often consulted in the missing people cases. They tend to say something along the lines "uuuu look in the water, I see the missing person near water". Does it mean they are murderers who had drown the missing person? No, simply many missing people end in the water, so that's the safest bet. The shaman knew that Nora propably is still in the jungle and sooner or later she will be found ("returned by spirit"). Hence his words.

 

[Chiatos]

I wonder, did her family know she had an ulcer? It's very possible they didn't. Just ... I don't think an ulcer can crop up and develop to the point of rupture in the time period since she disappeared. If she already had an ulcer, then it would make more sense that stress, hunger, and water-borne bacteria could lead to a rupture.

Ulcers can form out of starvation. Nora need not to have had one prior to her disappearance.

 

[Chiatos]

Ah well. Sorry for what my country people has done. They're trying to help the official with their own spiritual way, but hey.

I think it has been very wise to bring in the shaman.

 

[Angleterre]

In Malaysia, though that its a "islamic" country, many would still believe that every places such as tree, wood, soil, or even mountain, will have "guardian" or supernatural creature that dwell on a place that people aren't suppose to been there. People believe that, when you get lost in jungle or walking into unfamiliar trail, that is the time when you get abducted by so-called "djinn" or "orang bunian", another word for "wood fairy" in english.

You will walk endlessly until you get tired. Sometime you will heard random whisper, calling for you name. Sort of delusional effect when you brain don't get enough proper nutrient, and fatigue would piled up walking through all those hellish plants, stone and root.

In this case, there is no such thing as "abducted" by Djinn whatsoever.
The place where Nora was found dead are pretty famous with missing hiker cases, because of how confusing the trail are and its often mixed up with random bushes that grow alongside the trail but usually they or missing hiker can be found by local native in 1 or 2 days max after local begin their SAR. Nora's case would be first that lead to tragic incident.

My assumption is that, Nora was moving around during the time she was missing, hoping she could find a way to get back on her own, though walking inside a thick-rain forest plus with limited view due constant fog (hence the name for the mountain are Gunung Berembun, or Misty Mountain) would hinder her navigation on her way back. That's would explain why dogs wouldn't able to detect any scent at all, due the chemical scent might be diluted with fog, and extreme condition of the forest environment

IMO.

Thank you so kindly for giving us the useful interpretation of local custom and folklore. It’s very interesting albeit not in such circumstances but I do like to learn about other cultures and beliefs, so I thank you.

 

[Looloo]

this thread has made my brain hurt! So many contradictions in media/statements etc I'm finding it hard to make a decision on most of the things we have been told.
I hope the family recover as much as they can from Nora's passing in such a surreal ,unexpected way.I myself am not a religious person but I hope their faith brings them support and comfort.RIP NORA

 

[Shadyren]

Ulcers can form out of starvation. Nora need not to have had one prior to her disappearance.

Her gastric juice may cause of ulcer form within her intestine system. Assuming she doesn't eat anything when she still missing.

Gastric ulcers on the other hand are usually caused by hypersecretion of gastric juice of humoral or gastrin origin caused by stasis of food in the stomach in contact with the gastric antrum. This stasis may be due to pyloric stenosis from an accompanying duodenal ulcer or to defective gastric tonus and motility.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0002961069902980

 

[Njust1]

In Malaysia, though that its a "islamic" country, many would still believe that every places such as tree, wood, soil, or even mountain, will have "guardian" or supernatural creature that dwell on a place that people aren't suppose to been there. People believe that, when you get lost in jungle or walking into unfamiliar trail, that is the time when you get abducted by so-called "djinn" or "orang bunian", another word for "wood fairy" in english.

You will walk endlessly until you get tired. Sometime you will heard random whisper, calling for you name. Sort of delusional effect when you brain don't get enough proper nutrient, and fatigue would piled up walking through all those hellish plants, stone and root.

In this case, there is no such thing as "abducted" by Djinn whatsoever.
The place where Nora was found dead are pretty famous with missing hiker cases, because of how confusing the trail are and its often mixed up with random bushes that grow alongside the trail but usually they or missing hiker can be found by local native in 1 or 2 days max after local begin their SAR. Nora's case would be first that lead to tragic incident.

My assumption is that, Nora was moving around during the time she was missing, hoping she could find a way to get back on her own, though walking inside a thick-rain forest plus with limited view due constant fog (hence the name for the mountain are Gunung Berembun, or Misty Mountain) would hinder her navigation on her way back. That's would explain why dogs wouldn't able to detect any scent at all, due the chemical scent might be diluted with fog, and extreme condition of the forest environment

IMO.

Great thought process!

 

[Angleterre]

Thank you. That’s what I thought. It’s natural to guess, but we can’t use pure guesses to decide what probably happened, surely?

No you’re correct , we can’t but it is like one large forensic jigsaw puzzle whereby you put all the pieces together relating to the post mortem findings and ultimately toxicology and the conditions that Nóra was found in and the temperature and humidity and environment of where she died and /or where she was found as you can have a death site and a body deposition site , so all is looked at in complex detail and they may even bring in experts in the field of entomology (insects and flies) or other experts if the topography and soil and plants and environment needs to be considered as well as the forensic science pathologist.

 

[HayLouise]

Tweets:

Jackie Fox‏ @jackiefox_
Police here in Malaysia said that there were no signs that she was raped.

Jackie Fox‏ @jackiefox_
Authorities said that the Quoirin family can leave the country, if they want to.

Jackie Fox‏ @jackiefox_
Police in Malaysia say that there was no suspicion of foul play “for the time being” in the death of Nóra Quiorin.

Jackie Fox‏ @jackiefox_
I’ll be live on @morningireland shortly with all the details from this press conference - that has the results from a postmortem examination on Nóra Quoirin.

Jackie Fox‏ @jackiefox_
Malaysian police say Nóra Quoirin died two to three days before he body was found. They said that the cause of death was internal bleeding in her intestine which could have been caused by lack of food or stress.

 

[HayLouise]

Howard Johnson‏ @Howardrjohnson
Police say initial post-mortem suggests rupturing of intestine likely cause of death because of either stress or lack of food #NoraQuoirin #NoraAnneQuoirin

Howard Johnson‏ @Howardrjohnson
Police on post-mortem examination of Nora Quoirin: No suspicion of foul play. Died 2-3 days before they found her body. No indications of rape or violence.They say the likely cause of death is rupturing of intestine bc of lack of food / stress. #NoraAnneQuoirin #NoraQuoirin

Howard Johnson‏ @Howardrjohnson
"For the time being, there was no element of abduction or kidnapping," said Mohamad Mat Yusop, the police chief of Negeri Sembilan state where Quoirin went missing.

 

[HayLouise]

Jim Gamble‏Verified account @JimGamble_INEQE

Jim Gamble Retweeted Howard Johnson

We need to continue supporting the family as they come to terms with what has happened & arrange to bring #Nora home. Then as in any #Safeguarding incident it will be important to carry out a structure review of the response to establish if there are lessons for future cases.

Jim Gamble on Twitter

 

[HayLouise]

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
French radio France Info reporting Nora Quoirin’s autopsy results reveals she died 4 days before her body was found, with no signs of beatings or violence but internal bleeding. UNVERIFIED at this stage and we are waiting for police confirmation at presser scheduled for 2pm.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
JUST IN: Nora Quoirin’s cause of death was upper gastrointestinal bleeding caused by a perforation likely brought on by prolonged hunger and stress. No signs she was raped; hymen intact. Scratches on her feet. Police have no reason to suspect abduction or foul play for now.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

Nora Quoirin had died “two to three days” before she was found, “no more than four days”, said the Negeri Sembilan police chief. She was missing for 10 days.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

With this and given the fact she died no more than 4 days ago, questions remain as to

• how she ended up in the ravine. Did she wander off and get lost?
• why did the SAR team not find her in the six days she was still alive? Was she hiding?

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted marlo

Speculation about the credibility of Malaysian forensics’ experts in the Nora Quoirin case but don’t forget, it was local experts who identified Kim Jong Nam’s cause of death as from a WMD: VX poisoning. If bilateral ties were a concern, that wasn’t the smartest move.

 

[Lilibet]

Could she have been found wandering lost and ill by someone who lived in the jungle and hadn’t heard about her? Could they have cared for her until she died and then carefully and lovingly placed her in a beautiful place? That might explain how little her body was damaged. I’d like to think someone did their best for her.

 

[Amonet]

A bit off topic but going back to a previous post: I found out we do have Child Rescue Alert in the UK. A quick look at the website shows that in every recent alert the child has been found very quickly (because they'd just wandered off I think, rather than because the alert system helped find them)

In theory radio and TV broadcasts can be interrupted with abduction alerts, and those overhead message boards on motorways can list details of a suspect vehicle, but in practice I've never known that to happen. Maybe I just wasn't watching telly or in the car. Hmmm... I spot a flaw...

I do think every country should have a decent equivalent of the Amber Alert system. If my child vanished I'd want everyone in the vicinity to get that instant text.

Everyone talks a lot about Amber Alerts, but they're actually only used in some cases. The rules for them state that there has to have been an observed abduction plus details of the vehicle that the abductor is traveling in. A lot of missing child cases don't fit into that category. Most cases that do fit into that category will be familial abductions and not stranger abductions or a child that's gone missing from home and could be wandering in a forest.

 

[WiseOwl]

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
French radio France Info reporting Nora Quoirin’s autopsy results reveals she died 4 days before her body was found, with no signs of beatings or violence but internal bleeding. UNVERIFIED at this stage and we are waiting for police confirmation at presser scheduled for 2pm.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
JUST IN: Nora Quoirin’s cause of death was upper gastrointestinal bleeding caused by a perforation likely brought on by prolonged hunger and stress. No signs she was raped; hymen intact. Scratches on her feet. Police have no reason to suspect abduction or foul play for now.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

Nora Quoirin had died “two to three days” before she was found, “no more than four days”, said the Negeri Sembilan police chief. She was missing for 10 days.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

With this and given the fact she died no more than 4 days ago, questions remain as to

• how she ended up in the ravine. Did she wander off and get lost?
• why did the SAR team not find her in the six days she was still alive? Was she hiding?

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted marlo

Speculation about the credibility of Malaysian forensics’ experts in the Nora Quoirin case but don’t forget, it was local experts who identified Kim Jong Nam’s cause of death as from a WMD: VX poisoning. If bilateral ties were a concern, that wasn’t the smartest move.

Thanks for the constant updates during this case HayLouise - marvellous as usual.

Agonising to hear that Nora was alive for a few days in the jungle, absolutely heartbreaking for her family to hear this news.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Oh my word, devastating news. She must have heard the searchers and just stayed quiet. I’m really upset.

 

[Alyce]

Adding my thanks @HayLouise really appreciate all the updates you post for us