Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #4

[?mysterian?]

Gastrointestinal (GI) bleeding:

Gastrointestinal bleeding - Symptoms and causes

There may not be any obvious bleeding outside (externally). The bleeding could be internal.

Just because one person has certain signs/symptoms, it doesn't mean everyone else will also have those same signs/symptoms. IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

The dogs apparently picked up her scent then lost it , was that in the direction of the waterfall?

Only for a very short distance at the vacation home.

Jmo

 

[RachelZachary]

I haven't read anything to suggest so. Why do you ask?

I wondered if that was another reason that they believe there may have been someone else involved, other than their knowledge and experience of Nora and her capabilities.

 

[Kelumbo]

Gastrointestinal (GI) bleeding:

Gastrointestinal bleeding - Symptoms and causes

There may not be any obvious bleeding outside (externally). The bleeding could be internal.

Just because one person has certain signs/symptoms, it doesn't mean everyone else will also have those same signs/symptoms. IMO.

Yeah and I was just telling my father-in laws experience

 

[Simply Southern]

What people need to remember is this isn’t normal circumstances. A child without disabilities would be alert enough to discover food parcels with names, they would also be alert enough of the situation to call out and/or to follow calls from searchers. I really doubt Nora would have the mental capabilities to understand a dropped food parcel with her name on it although anything is possible when human survival instincts kick in I suppose.
Her parents have already said how limited she is mentally, only able to write a couple of words, no concept of money etc. This is what makes this case so terribly sad, the likelihood is there were probably searchers not too far from her but with it being Nora, she probably didn’t really understand to call out or to follow their calls.

With the report of an ulcer in her stomach, a perforation and the GI bleeding proves that even in the most extreme of circumstances, the natural human instincts of survival didn’t kick in with Nora, she hasn’t attempted to eat anything - this shows just how limited her mental capabilities really are and proves just how vulnerable of a child she really is.

I think this case doesn’t get much deeper than what we have already been told, an absolutely awful way to die but thankfully not at the hands of another person.

I don’t think the parents could have done anything more than they done at this point, they clearly loved her and she deserved to see the world along with her siblings. I can only assume it would be “easier” for the parents to have left her at home with other family members but they didn’t want her to miss out and rightly so.

Just a terrible unfortunate event that was out of everyone’s control.

Thanks!! That's an excellent explanation.

Jmo

 

[Simply Southern]

The French lawyer of the family of Nóra Quoirin has said the family is determined to find out how she died.
“They want to find out the truth, they owe her that,”

Police in Malaysia have said they have found no evidence that Nora was abducted, putting her death down to intestinal bleeding, possibly due to lack of food and stress.

The 15-year-old had been dead for two or three days by the time she was found on Tuesday, investigators said
.
The family is cautious about results of the post mortem and said it is too early to rule out any criminal aspect to the case.

The family still finds it difficult to understand that she would have gone into the jungle on her own. They are concerned that she did not leave on her own.

No decision has been reached by the family about when they will return to Europe. Nóra’s remains can be returned to Europe now, said Mr Morel, they do not have to wait for the DNA results.



Lawyer: Quoirin family determined to find out how Nora died

I am sure the parents are shocked, with results leading to her being lost and leaving the resort. I would be as well.

Having an adult daughter, I am shocked at the adventures/risks she took as a teenager...lost in the woods, lost ofn the river in the dark....all she keep as secrets, for years.

JMO

 

[Theforeigner]

IMO police should take tracking dogs to the location were Nora was found and let the dogs backtrack her rute, on that rute they might find Nora's underwear and also get a picture of how she moved around in the days before her death.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

https://clinicalnutritionespen.com/article/S1751-4991(08)00050-4/pdf

 

[?mysterian?]

Yeah and I was just telling my father-in laws experience

With all due respect, I wasn't replying to any specific poster. Several posters have commented on the presence/absence of obvious blood at the site where NQ's
remains were found.

Since you bring it up, your post quoted below, specifically the last sentence, states that blood " would have been present."

"Graphic

My father-in law died from an intestinal rupture, he wasn’t eating just bits here and there and he had mental health issues and was going through a very stressful time (don’t really wanna talk about his personal stuff). But what I am going to say is the day he died he was acting drunk (no alcohol) tho. He was like stumbling and knocking things over. He then collapsed and lots of blood came out of his mouth, it was like he was being sick blood. I’m just wondering why the hikers didn’t pick up on the amount of blood that would have been present.

Kelumbo, Today at 6:46 AMReport
#580Like+ QuoteReply"

 

[adelinesky]

What people need to remember is this isn’t normal circumstances. A child without disabilities would be alert enough to discover food parcels with names, they would also be alert enough of the situation to call out and/or to follow calls from searchers. I really doubt Nora would have the mental capabilities to understand a dropped food parcel with her name on it although anything is possible when human survival instincts kick in I suppose.
Her parents have already said how limited she is mentally, only able to write a couple of words, no concept of money etc. This is what makes this case so terribly sad, the likelihood is there were probably searchers not too far from her but with it being Nora, she probably didn’t really understand to call out or to follow their calls.

With the report of an ulcer in her stomach, a perforation and the GI bleeding proves that even in the most extreme of circumstances, the natural human instincts of survival didn’t kick in with Nora, she hasn’t attempted to eat anything - this shows just how limited her mental capabilities really are and proves just how vulnerable of a child she really is.

I think this case doesn’t get much deeper than what we have already been told, an absolutely awful way to die but thankfully not at the hands of another person.

I don’t think the parents could have done anything more than they done at this point, they clearly loved her and she deserved to see the world along with her siblings. I can only assume it would be “easier” for the parents to have left her at home with other family members but they didn’t want her to miss out and rightly so.

Just a terrible unfortunate event that was out of everyone’s control.

We also have to remember that being away from medicine so long had already put Nora's body under immense amount of stress. There's a reason why you are not supposed to go off certain medications cold turkey.

If it's true that NQ died from an upper GI bleed, I would have suspected the body and the ground around it to have a fair amount of blood on it (AFAIK people suffering from these kinds of internal injuries tend to experience hematemesis, or throwing up blood). While it's possible she may have been able to clean herself of blood at the stream where she finally collapsed, I would be surprised if she had enough strength/wherewithal to manage that after days of starvation. I happen to think the initial report from the search party who found her was deliberately phrased to bring comfort to the family (IIRC they said she looked like she was sleeping peacefully), so I can understand why they might have omitted any reference to blood even if they'd seen it...

I also wonder if NQ might have ingested something that caused an internal perforation--tree bark or something similar that her body simply couldn't digest and which damaged her GI tract. AFAIK there's been no confirmation of her stomach contents yet--correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I don't know if it even matters at this point, but I am also wondering about the discrepant reports of COD from various MSM sources--some, like CNN, say she died of "intestinal bleeding" (Nora Quoirin probably died of intestinal bleeding, Malaysia police say - CNN) whereas others, such as the BBC, say it was an "upper GI bleed" ('No foul play' in Nora Quoirin death). I've also seen sources like the UK's "Mirror" say "intestinal rupture." (Autopsy finds Nora Quoirin died from injuries caused by starvation and stress). Are any verified medical professionals here able to speak to whether these terms are typically used interchangeably or not?

MOO/IMO

This is a good start. Stress ulcer. - PubMed - NCBI I can add more when i find a free version of the articles. A lot of them are behind a paywall or only allow other academics to access them. I can send a few emails out to the authors to see if i can at least post a few snippets of their work

 

[Solemn]

I searched in Medical Books and on the Internet for "upper gastro-intestinal bleeding/ulcer" complicated by perforation.

I read NSAIDS overdose / overuse over a prolonged period of time and H pylori bacteria can cause ulcer bleeding. But this happens more to the elderly...
Other reasons like stress and not eating regularly cause gradual harm to the body & stomach ulcer over a long time. NQ might have starved but what 'ulcer'?

We have not found any scientific article that starvation of 1 week causes sudden acute ulcer bleeding of the Emergency sort... By saying this, I'm not saying in any way that the post-mortem was wrong, but just puzzled why whoever said starvation & stress can cause ulcer bleeding leading to death within 1 week... We looked and looked but cannot find info about such a COD... If anyone finds info in reliable medical Journals (black and white published non-fiction articles), pls Respectfully share. Thank you.

Want to find out what can cause the type of internal bleeding (the ulcer developed And led to death within few days?) Specifically said by the Malaysian Police during the video of the press conference (which developed over a short few days but caused Death?)...
- According to Pathologist's Report, what caused the inner bleeding?
- Or was it an off-the-cuff remark, not by pathologist?

If it's really Gastrointestinal Bleeding that developed & caused her death in such a short time (one week),
which of the following causes was it?
- peptic ulcer - but what caused that in NQ?
Bacteria? What type? NSAIDs drugs?
- there's no evidence she had alcohol abuse or liver disease (other causes of GI bleeding, and again, like GERD, usually take time to develop)

Qn was how starvation and/or stress can lead to upper GI bleeding / GI ulcer in just 7 days... Unless it was just a casual remark or had other underlying causes.

 

[Simply Southern]

While we may never know why/how NQ left the resort that night, it is almost certain now that she did on her own. The results weren’t even inconclusive on the telltale signs of abduction such as bruising, sexual assault evidence and ligature marks from being tied up - they were emphatic. IIRC, members of Irish and French LE were also present at the PM so let’s be careful before we go speculating about shoddy forensics work.

I can understand NQ’s family’s disbelief and they aren’t in the frame of mind right now to process this but hopefully over time reality will be easier to accept. Anything at this point that would suggest abduction is speculation and rather wild theory that no evidence uncovered so far supports.

Best guess is NQ was excited or spooked by a noise or movement outside and went to investigate, then got lost and succumbed to starvation. The timeline by which she had been deceased compared to when she went missing matches approximately how long the human body can survive without food too. She was a developmentally disabled teenager in a new environment so while under normal circumstances she wouldn’t have wandered off, these were not normal circumstances.

The Malaysian police put everything they had into this one with over 100 people searching and it was awesome to see so many strangers show up to help a foreign vacationer.

The parents right now may want to believe there was foul play because then the guilt of letting NQ wander off and ultimately to her death is out of their hands however this really looks like a case of a tragic set of events that can’t be “blamed” on anyone.

I hope they find comfort and peace as the months go by and keep NQ’s memory alive. RIP Nora.

I agree!!!

These folks searched for days in horrendous conditions. They gave up their celebration to search for her.

I've followed lots of lost kids on here. Most keep moving until something stops them. Sometimes a ridge/cliff they're stuck on, one boy from NC wondered 3 days in a circle, until he was tangled in briars. He clearly stated a bear kept him company.

Kids wander when lost.

Jmo

 

[adelinesky]

If it's really Gastrointestinal Bleeding that developed & caused her death in such a short time (one week),
which of the following causes was it?
- peptic ulcer - but what caused that in NQ?
Bacteria? What type? NSAIDs drugs?
- there's no evidence she had alcohol abuse or liver disease (other causes of GI bleeding, and again, like GERD, usually take time to develop)

Qn was how starvation and/or stress can lead to upper GI bleeding / GI ulcer in just 7 days... Unless it was just a casual remark or had other underlying causes.

I posted an article above that had patients develop ulcer within hours. Their development aren't always a slow progression

 

[Kelumbo]

With all due respect, I wasn't replying to any specific poster. Several posters have commented on the presence/absence of obvious blood at the site where NQ's
remains were found.

Since you bring it up, your post quoted below, specifically the last sentence, states that blood " would have been present."

"Graphic

My father-in law died from an intestinal rupture, he wasn’t eating just bits here and there and he had mental health issues and was going through a very stressful time (don’t really wanna talk about his personal stuff). But what I am going to say is the day he died he was acting drunk (no alcohol) tho. He was like stumbling and knocking things over. He then collapsed and lots of blood came out of his mouth, it was like he was being sick blood. I’m just wondering why the hikers didn’t pick up on the amount of blood that would have been present.

Kelumbo, Today at 6:46 AMReport
#580Like+ QuoteReply"

Because Iv seen someone collapse and die of a instenial rupture once I was going by my experience and there was lots of blood so I’m sorry for thinking that it may have been the same with N

 

[Kelumbo]

Because Iv seen someone collapse and die of a instenial rupture once I was going by my experience and there was lots of blood so I’m sorry for thinking that it may have been the same with N

And I thought my experience with it may have been informative, but guess not

 

[steff13]

Here's a study about rats and starvation and stress. I haven't read it thoroughly, but it might be apt.

Starvation and mucosal prostaglandin-E2 in gastric stress ulceration. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Angleterre]

Edited to Also include any indigenous jungle representation too which may be important in terms of the lay of the land ....

No you’re correct , we can’t but it is like one large forensic jigsaw puzzle whereby you put all the pieces together relating to the post mortem findings and ultimately toxicology and the conditions that Nóra was found in and the temperature and humidity and environment of where she died and /or where she was found as you can have a death site and a body deposition site , so all is looked at in complex detail and they may even bring in experts in the field of entomology (insects and flies) or other experts if the topography and soil and plants and environment needs to be considered as well as the forensic science pathologist.

 

[Manhenry]

I think we have to remove ourselves and what we would do or how we would feel out of the equation. Nora wasn't like us and how she would behave wouldn't be how we would behave. We are unaware of her cognitive abilities but she would have the primitive almost animalistic need to survive. We all do but unfortunately lots of us lose it through parenting, schooling etc.
Nora may run away or hide from voices or noise. She may not have been fooled for a second by her mums voice over the loud hailer. It might have sounded tinny, odd to her. We just don't know and her parents probably don't know either.
I think it is telling that her parents have accepted the autopsy results. I suspect that she has had a pre-existing stomach/intestinal complaint.
I hope they find peace in time and realise that this is no one's fault. I have a very "for the grace of God go I' attitude and I hope Nora got to see the waterfall and experienced a moment of great joy.

 

[Angleterre]

I think we have to remove ourselves and what we would do or how we would feel out of the equation. Nora wasn't like us and how she would behave wouldn't be how we would behave. We are unaware of her cognitive abilities but she would have the primitive almost animalistic need to survive. We all do but unfortunately lots of us lose it through parenting, schooling etc.
Nora may run away or hide from voices or noise. She may not have been fooled for a second by her mums voice over the loud hailer. It might have sounded tinny, odd to her. We just don't know and her parents probably don't know either.
I think it is telling that her parents have accepted the autopsy results. I suspect that she has had a pre-existing stomach/intestinal complaint.
I hope they find peace in time and realise that this is no one's fault. I have a very "for the grace of God go I' attitude and I hope Nora got to see the waterfall and experienced a moment of great joy.

^^^THIS^^^ absolutely! We can’t put ourselves in her shoes, only her parents and siblings really know how she behaves in stressful situations and how she responds to and interprets situations ! Well said !

 

[?mysterian?]

Because Iv seen someone collapse and die of a instenial rupture once I was going by my experience and there was lots of blood so I’m sorry for thinking that it may have been the same with N

I'm very sorry for your loss.