Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[Just K]

Just Catching up but two things come to mind:
1. With the GB4 we, IIRC, were told that there was some difference in the decomposition rates, in at least some of the victims, yet we are told that COD was Strangulation.

How do they know that? Was there was some tissue left on the bones or were the remains intact and wrapped well enough so that the hyoid bones were visible and showed evidence of strangulation fracture?

We know that GB4 went missing over a three year span (2007-2010)
We assume that they were each kept for at least some time before being discarded.
We suspect this b/c of the phone calls to MB's little sister.

2. With this latest MV skeleton, it seems odd that the guy who found it would note that it was wrapped in bedsheets and then black trash bags yet make note that he didn't notice any shoes.

Why did that stand out to him? Was the plastic with duct tape & the sheet so thread bare that he could see that the skeleton was clothed but lacking shoes? If he couldn't see through the wrapping then that is akin to saying it didn't have a hat or gloves. IMO he could tell that the skeleton was clothed.

If that is the case, it is a big difference between GB4, the other two Manorville females and possibly the fire island, Peaches and Cherries cases where, IIRC, they were not clothed. In the AC case, all four victims were clothed minus any shoes and socks.

But as far as remains turning up along OP, there is that one video clip with an officer carrying out a brown tennis shoe which looks like it had tan stripes on it. If that is related to any of the GB4, or Manorville remains that were found off of OP, why don't they put a picture of that shoe out for the public to see? Someone might recognize it as what someone was wearing when they were last seen.

We have been told that the GB4 were naked, right?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Could you please clarify?

Sorry, I really took a little time off ...
A little clarification:

In psychology you learn basically the mechanisms of a normal mind, in other words, the patterns that imprint the majority of mankind. But if you try to figure out a serial killer, some of thoe patterns just don't work the same way because most of them are pretty damaged. Half of the reason, why they are SKs are, that some or most of the normal patterns are destroyed or neve developed.
So, essentially:
You learn patterns of sane or halfway sane persons in psychology
but
Those guys are in most cases not even near to halfway sane

Thus the trick is to figure, what such a sick guy would think about a subject to get ahead of him.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Just Catching up but two things come to mind:
1. With the GB4 we, IIRC, were told that there was some difference in the decomposition rates, in at least some of the victims, yet we are told that COD was Strangulation.

How do they know that? Was there was some tissue left on the bones or were the remains intact and wrapped well enough so that the hyoid bones were visible and showed evidence of strangulation fracture?

Only way they can with a victim from 2007 would be the thyroid bone. If it's broken, it's clear. But sometimes, they say also strangulation when they can rule out shooting or blunt force trauma. So this whole business is to take always with a grain of salt. The only reason why I believe in strangulation is basically because it would fit LISK's behavior.

We know that GB4 went missing over a three year span (2007-2010)
We assume that they were each kept for at least some time before being discarded.
We suspect this b/c of the phone calls to MB's little sister.

Can I bow out from that "we", please? I think, he keeps them some days alive, but discarded them. LISK is not the same as MANORVILLE. Manorville however, is a keeper, keeping limbs and heads (and hell knows, whether he has also some torsos stashed in case he needs one)

2. With this latest MV skeleton, it seems odd that the guy who found it would note that it was wrapped in bedsheets and then black trash bags yet make note that he didn't notice any shoes.

Why did that stand out to him? Was the plastic with duct tape & the sheet so thread bare that he could see that the skeleton was clothed but lacking shoes? If he couldn't see through the wrapping then that is akin to saying it didn't have a hat or gloves. IMO he could tell that the skeleton was clothed.

This body had been there for years. But some years ago, when the body was still fresh, it produced a little smell. Enough for the fine noses of some forest residents. Who took there chance by ripping some holes in this package. In fact, I think, the killer did a pretty good packing work there, I remember cases of bodies in forests, where the heads and limbs were carried around by animals over a quarter mile. So, that was a good package, it held the guy together, but nobody can expect it to be entirely intact.

If that is the case, it is a big difference between GB4, the other two Manorville females and possibly the fire island, Peaches and Cherries cases where, IIRC, they were not clothed. In the AC case, all four victims were clothed minus any shoes and socks.

Okay, once more behavioral differences:
AC- Strangler, probably Islamic burial rites involved, killing to prove himself (therefore th short duration of the series)

GB: Dropped like a trophy, long duration of the series, major theme is domination and control. Therefore the bragging calls.

MV: A staging dismemberer, has a hrd time to express himself, but is pretty pissed if someone else gets the fame and tends to intercept. Which is typically for staging dismemberers.

Now comes the famous question what are the odds to have three SKs in one area (because AC isn't so far away)? Actually, the chance to have only three with an urbane center like NYC behind the horizon is pretty low, so don't wander if some more pop up, we talk here what, 20 mio people in LI, NJ and NYC? Over a period of more than ten years. So only three would be incredible low.

But as far as remains turning up along OP, there is that one video clip with an officer carrying out a brown tennis shoe which looks like it had tan stripes on it. If that is related to any of the GB4, or Manorville remains that were found off of OP, why don't they put a picture of that shoe out for the public to see? Someone might recognize it as what someone was wearing when they were last seen.

We have been told that the GB4 were naked, right?

As far as I remember, the naked part is more press speculation, I must have missed the official information. But then, most likely they were nude.

 

[snowstar]

Sorry, I really took a little time off ...
A little clarification:

In psychology you learn basically the mechanisms of a normal mind, in other words, the patterns that imprint the majority of mankind. But if you try to figure out a serial killer, some of thoe patterns just don't work the same way because most of them are pretty damaged. Half of the reason, why they are SKs are, that some or most of the normal patterns are destroyed or neve developed.
So, essentially:
You learn patterns of sane or halfway sane persons in psychology
but
Those guys are in most cases not even near to halfway sane

Thus the trick is to figure, what such a sick guy would think about a subject to get ahead of him.

A psychopath usually can not use the mentally ill defense because they know right from wrong, they just don't care. They have a personality disorder. One theory is that they never bonded with anyone as an infant/toddler. Your personality forms before the age of five. They learn to mimic others to get by in life. They are usually really good manipulators and can be quite charming. If this serial killer is a psychopathic sexual sadist he gets pleasure from torturing his victims ( caging, beating, shocking , burning, etc.). There were probably signs in his childhood like torturing animals. I hope they catch this monster soon! This is just my opinion.

 

[Claudette]

What makes you think, tech savvy guys know always how to spell? Dang, I worked with engineers who could do higher math without any troubles but were unable to being even one sentence up without a spell mistake.

Makes sense. Bro is an Engineer major, I have my degree in English. He could math me to death but can't grasp grammar and spelling to save his life. Ditto for me with math.

 

[Peter Brendt]

A psychopath usually can not use the mentally ill defense because they know right from wrong, they just don't care. They have a personality disorder. One theory is that they never bonded with anyone as an infant/toddler. Your personality forms before the age of five. They learn to mimic others to get by in life. They are usually really good manipulators and can be quite charming. If this serial killer is a psychopathic sexual sadist he gets pleasure from torturing his victims ( caging, beating, shocking , burning, etc.). There were probably signs in his childhood like torturing animals. I hope they catch this monster soon! This is just my opinion.

Now, that's definitively true. He does know. But the point is, the psychopath doesn't care about other things during his killing series either. And thus, his hunting patterns, his path of action is different from what an entirely sane guy would decide in the same situation. You talk about a diagnosis, I talk about hos it changes the hunt for him.
By the way, ehat makes you think, LISK is a psychopath? Manorville, okay, I get it, but for LISK, we have no hint of torture marks, no beating, no ante-mortem dismembering, no playful knife cuts to the bone, nothing othe popular games under psychopaths, or did I miss something?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Makes sense. Bro is an Engineer major, I have my degree in English. He could math me to death but can't grasp grammar and spelling to save his life. Ditto for me with math.

Technically, I'm IT-engineer, at least that was the last degree I finished. And I had to learn a third language aka English. Now je kann mess up drei langauges en one sentence ...

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Now, that's definitively true. He does know. But the point is, the psychopath doesn't care about other things during his killing series either. And thus, his hunting patterns, his path of action is different from what an entirely sane guy would decide in the same situation. You talk about a diagnosis, I talk about hos it changes the hunt for him.
By the way, ehat makes you think, LISK is a psychopath? Manorville, okay, I get it, but for LISK, we have no hint of torture marks, no beating, no ante-mortem dismembering, no playful knife cuts to the bone, nothing othe popular games under psychopaths, or did I miss something?

If the following information is true, what does it say about the LI perp, in your opinion?

wibw.com
Victim's Mom: 'Killer" Made Taunting Calls
Reporter: CNN
April 18, 2011
http://www.wibw.com/nationalnews/headlines/Victims_mom_Killer_made_taunting_calls__120122339.html


"Do you think you'll ever see her again?," the unidentified male caller asked Barthelemy's sister on August 26, 2009, according to Steve Cohen, an attorney for the victim's mother."

"You won't. I killed her," he added and hung up. The phone call ended after less than a minute."

"Another phone call was placed in July 2009 just days after Barthelemy disappeared. It was the first of seven calls he made from Barthelemy's cell phone. Cohen said that in the phone call the unidentified male caller referred to Barthelemy as a "*advertiser censored*" in a short conversation with her then-15-year-old sister."

"In the final call, the man described in graphic detail to the victim's sister what he had done sexually to Barthelemy, Cohen said."

"Barthelemy's mother and sister kept a journal of the calls that was turned over to police early in the investigation."

 

[snowstar]

Now, that's definitively true. He does know. But the point is, the psychopath doesn't care about other things during his killing series either. And thus, his hunting patterns, his path of action is different from what an entirely sane guy would decide in the same situation. You talk about a diagnosis, I talk about hos it changes the hunt for him.
By the way, ehat makes you think, LISK is a psychopath? Manorville, okay, I get it, but for LISK, we have no hint of torture marks, no beating, no ante-mortem dismembering, no playful knife cuts to the bone, nothing othe popular games under psychopaths, or did I miss something?

Well if we have one killer, Manorville,he dismembered his victims. If we have two serial killers, LISK taunted Melissa's little sister. On the A&E documentary he called her and told her she should have seen her sister's face. Also, he said he would watch her rot. I can't quote exactly what he said unless I watched it again but it was something to that effect. He's not just a psychopath but a psychopathic sexual sadist. I see what you mean though, about the hunt. He is a human predator.Let's hope they catch him before he kills again. This is just my opinion.

 

[scandi]

Well if we have one killer, Manorville,he dismembered his victims. If we have two serial killers, LISK taunted Melissa's little sister. On the A&E documentary he called her and told her she should have seen her sister's face. Also, he said he would watch her rot. I can't quote exactly what he said unless I watched it again but it was something to that effect. He's not just a psychopath but a psychopathic sexual sadist. I see what you mean though, about the hunt. He is a human predator.Let's hope they catch him before he kills again. This is just my opinion.

We might not even know for some time if he has killed again as he keeps the bodies on wraps for awhile, right? I guess the only thing that would raise suspicion is if a girl goes missing under the same or similar circumstances.

 

[Peter Brendt]

If the following information is true, what does it say about the LI perp, in your opinion?

wibw.com
Victim's Mom: 'Killer" Made Taunting Calls
Reporter: CNN
April 18, 2011
http://www.wibw.com/nationalnews/headlines/Victims_mom_Killer_made_taunting_calls__120122339.html


"Do you think you'll ever see her again?," the unidentified male caller asked Barthelemy's sister on August 26, 2009, according to Steve Cohen, an attorney for the victim's mother."

"You won't. I killed her," he added and hung up. The phone call ended after less than a minute."

"Another phone call was placed in July 2009 just days after Barthelemy disappeared. It was the first of seven calls he made from Barthelemy's cell phone. Cohen said that in the phone call the unidentified male caller referred to Barthelemy as a "*advertiser censored*" in a short conversation with her then-15-year-old sister."

"In the final call, the man described in graphic detail to the victim's sister what he had done sexually to Barthelemy, Cohen said."

"Barthelemy's mother and sister kept a journal of the calls that was turned over to police early in the investigation."

That is not rage, that sounds to me more like domination behavior. Overcompensation for perceived flaws or inferiority. That would fit a racist or a reverse-racist as well. But it would be better to have complete transcripts to estimate this. This guy is pretty bright and to a degree educated or self-educated. I read in other articles something, he made references to Melissa's lifestyle in general? And about the sister's?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Well if we have one killer, Manorville,he dismembered his victims. If we have two serial killers, LISK taunted Melissa's little sister. On the A&E documentary he called her and told her she should have seen her sister's face. Also, he said he would watch her rot. I can't quote exactly what he said unless I watched it again but it was something to that effect. He's not just a psychopath but a psychopathic sexual sadist. I see what you mean though, about the hunt. He is a human predator.Let's hope they catch him before he kills again. This is just my opinion.

All what he said, was planned, not result of rage. This is a definitve discrepancy to the impression, he was drunk. He was too precise. And he described, but then if those descriptions included torture, are really torture marks on the remains?
What made me think a long time ago is thie "Do you think ... no, I killed her" line. This is domination behavior, master over life and death, master over giving and taking attitude. So by his words, he sounds psychopath, but by the way, he uses them, he sounds more mission-driven. Precise, planned and always with a purpose.

 

[Peter Brendt]

We might not even know for some time if he has killed again as he keeps the bodies on wraps for awhile, right? I guess the only thing that would raise suspicion is if a girl goes missing under the same or similar circumstances.

A lot of prostitutes travel, so nobody misses them. And I doubt, any missing person reports are taken more seriously than in 2007 or 2009 now. Not if it's about prostitutes. If SFPD is smart, they send, beginning with middle May till end of September, regularly some guys along the road, where the GB4 were found. This guy is smart, but also arrogant, can be, he can't resist to place some new ones in the very same spot because LE has already searched that part of beach.
And the wraps thing? Well as well known, I don't believe in one killer. So if it's LISK, he will plant them, build a new trophy garden somewhere. If it's Manorville, he may wants to heat up media attention again and that means bold staging. But since Manorville appears to be a summer child too, I don't think, we will see any fresh bodies before end of May or early June, maybe even later. Of course, who knows, how many old remains are out there.

 

[otto]

All what he said, was planned, not result of rage. This is a definitve discrepancy to the impression, he was drunk. He was too precise. And he described, but then if those descriptions included torture, are really torture marks on the remains?
What made me think a long time ago is thie "Do you think ... no, I killed her" line. This is domination behavior, master over life and death, master over giving and taking attitude. So by his words, he sounds psychopath, but by the way, he uses them, he sounds more mission-driven. Precise, planned and always with a purpose.

Would that be a real life Hannibal Lectur?

 

[otto]

It sounds like the Manorville area was the original dumping ground, but there was some concern about having a couple of the bodies identified, probably because they clearly linked back to the killer, so he took the identifying body parts (hands, head) and put them in another location. With more development in the area, the person seems to have decided to put the bodies where he put the hands and head since they had not been discovered. By putting more bodies there, the hands and head were also located. I suspect there's a direct link between the woman with the parts in two locations and the killer. Identifying the first victim is probably one of the best clues ... but they can't really know that, since new bodies and parts keep turning up.

 

[otto]

So it looks like the earliest body is from 1997, only one of the four found in that area have been identified. Taylor has been identified through the reconstruction of a tattoo but her head and hands were missing. Another woman, Doe 6, found in the same area was missing hands and a foot. The thought was that the foot had a tattoo and that the killer wanted to hinder identification of the body. It actually looks like his earliest bodies were cut up into plastic bags that turned up in the water. Taylor was found lying on plastic but missing body parts. Her body parts were found associated with four women wrapped in burlap ... not plastic.

This sounds like one person to me.

 

[scandi]

So it looks like the earliest body is from 1997, only one of the four found in that area have been identified. Taylor has been identified through the reconstruction of a tattoo but her head and hands were missing. Another woman, Doe 6, found in the same area was missing hands and a foot. The thought was that the foot had a tattoo and that the killer wanted to hinder identification of the body. It actually looks like his earliest bodies were cut up into plastic bags that turned up in the water. Taylor was found lying on plastic but missing body parts. Her body parts were found associated with four women wrapped in burlap ... not plastic.

This sounds like one person to me.

It's great to see you Otto. Your one person idea sounds plausible to me looking at the length of time between the first and last killings, '97 to '10 if that is correct.

Don't you think it is about time for LE to hold a presser? It seems like they are not trying to pull info from the public which is odd. I know it is a delicate investigation as the case has to be perfect before any warrants are pulled on him. I have seen so many cases where LE still kept in touch w/ the public and were still guarded in what they said. ;}

 

[otto]

It's great to see you Otto. Your one person idea sounds plausible to me looking at the length of time between the first and last killings, '97 to '10 if that is correct.

Don't you think it is about time for LE to hold a presser? It seems like they are not trying to pull info from the public which is odd. I know it is a delicate investigation as the case has to be perfect before any warrants are pulled on him. I have seen so many cases where LE still kept in touch w/ the public and were still guarded in what they said. ;}

Good to see you too! I see the similarity in the wrapping. I think he was tentative at first and over-disguised the bodies ... chopped up, wrapped in plastic, tossed in the water. If the 1997 murders are connected ... we know the 2000 murders are connected ... then it started with dismemberment and wrapped in plastic parts. Taylor was found lying on plastic and somewhat dismembered in the Manorville area, but this time only those parts that lead to identification were removed (foot, hands, head). Those body parts were hidden in a better spot, Giglo Beach ... later discovered because he realized that it was such a good hiding spot that he started dumping entire bodies there. At Giglo, he wrapped his victims in burlap, instead of plastic ... perhaps using plastic when he first put the parts in the river and using burlap in the field where he hoped the body would be fertilizer. The body parts from the Manorville area are directly connected with the bodies in this area, if only because of the wrapping ... that's what I think ... and then there's the head in one location and the body in the other. One guy ... so far getting away with picking up prostitutes on location (2000) or online.

It sounds like investigators are overwhelmed and that they keep trying to break it down to manageable parts ... like three murderers. I think they're missing the big picture. If investigators only look at how the body is dismembered and wrapped, depending on where it is dumped, they'll see a pattern that can't be ignored ... but perhaps they'll decide to pursue three investigations instead of one person.

 

[snowstar]

We might not even know for some time if he has killed again as he keeps the bodies on wraps for awhile, right? I guess the only thing that would raise suspicion is if a girl goes missing under the same or similar circumstances.

Yes, that's true.

 

[truthspider]

Would that be a real life Hannibal Lectur?

It does sound like Dr behavior doesn't it.
I enjoy your posts otto please stick around.