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bulletgirl2002 said:
This is something I have never been able to understand either. Until I have other proof, the Ramsey family are victims. I just don' t think they would have stood by the other one if one had murdered their child.

Here is the thing you all have to understand.

I got into the forum business because of the Ramsey case. I too believe it was an inside job.

I have seen first hand what the Ramsy's lies have done to innocent people.

The Ramseys make me sick. And yes, one or both killed JonBenet.

I usually don't come on the JBR forum at WS because I want to let all sides keep the discussion lively. That's why when I discuss the case I go to my other forum www.forumsforjustice.org/forums

Yes, I will allow anyon to call the Ramseys killers because one or both are. That's not just my opinion but the opinion of people much more knowledgable (sp?) than myself.

Is it unfair. Yes. I'll admit it is. But there are two things you have to remember.

1- Dear friends of mine have been almost ruined because of the Ramseys and their lies

2-I own the forum

I rarely bring out number 2 because I think it sounds like a power trip. That is not my intention. Really

Also give us credit. We allow fully and freely the discussion of an intruder even though I know this theory to be totally false.

Thank you for understanding.
 
Wudge said:
If it were ever to get published, I think Buzz nailed the likely book hawk ... Gloria. (per JBean, the G word...lol)

Karr's former wife, however, has had three days to locate any exonerating Xmas photo or video, and her attorney did not give the slightest inkling yesterday that any such trinket had yet been found.

Maybe she's holding out for some reason...who knows, or maybe they don't exist.

I don't know about Gloria...but anything is possible. Anything.
 
As far as the ex finding Christmas photos from 1996,would seem hard, unless she has all her photo albums in order. I am fairly orderly with my pics,but there are still some holidays from years ago,that I did not write the date on the back,or had a date stamped on them.
 
Yeah, I'm sure it would take me a while to find my albums!

"Thank you. Now, make your case for conviction on each charge."

Okay, now I'm REALLY thinking this is a set-up!

Second-degree murder- okay, here's how it goes. Patsy's fibers are tied into the knots of the cord that strangled her daughter. They are also in the box where the paintbrush came that made the handle. They are also on the strip of duct tape. She claimed she never wore that sweater in the basement and that she never saw the cord before. Also, her story about transfering fibers to JB by laying on her is contradicted by her own book, which states that John had already covered the body before Patsy saw it. The garrote is what actually killed her, we know that, but the evidence suggests that it was purely for cosmetic purposes. Such as: there is no solid evidence that JB struggled at all against it. No tongue damage, no larynx damage, no hyoid bone damage, no thyroid damage to speak of, no indication that the cord slid up and down her neck from her bucking against it, and no indication of scratch marks on her neck trying to claw at it. If that HAD been the case, her arms would be bruised, her fingernails LOADED with skin, and they weren't. Not only that, but the ligature itself was really impractical. There was a foot and a half of length between it and the handle. Imagine, if you will, how far you would have to move your arm up and back to make it work. The shorter, the better. Not only that, but the knot experts consulted said that the knots were very simple. Anyone could have made it. I have myself many times. BUT, at no time is this premeditated. You can't murder someone you think is already dead, and in this case, it looked like she's been killed by the head blow. But even then, there's no evidence that it was premeditated. Dr. Richard Krugman said that the blow was delivered in a fit of anger, which, thanks to concernedperson here on this site, we know Patsy was known to have. But it was NOT premeditated. No evidence suggests that.

Evidence tampering- ah, that's from the other staging aspects. One, the ties around her wrists were very loose. The coroner slipped them right off. And there was about another foot and a half of space between each wrist. Tell me that YOU couldn't move your arms if you had that much space between them. These were not handcuffs. Two, the injury to her vagina from the paintbrush was very quick. It was jabbed in once. It wasn't, that we know of, moved around a lot. The FBI said that the sexual assault was not done for a pedophile killer's pleasure. They are probably right. A REAL pedophile killer would have caused much more damage in a much more intimate way. You don't have to take my word for that, either. Remember Danielle Van Dam? PLUS, the body was wiped down very gently. If a real sex killer had done that to wipe out evidence, he would have stripped it clean of skin. The duct tape over her mouth was also impractical. It was a two-inch square with absolutely NO deformation from her fighting it and a PERFECT set of lip prints on it. That means that she was dead when it was put on. Had to be. If you wanted a kid to keep quiet, wouldn't you put the tape on in multiple layers BEFORE you killed her? The note: it's a long, rambling, stream-of-consciousness treatise on the evils of American business which degenerates into a rant against John specifically with all of her phraseology and little sayings in it. Also, if the killer had come to kill her, why write a ransom note? It would have been more like Scorpio's note in "Dirty Harry."

Hindering an investigation-well, she lied to police. She said that she bought the overlarge panties for her neice, then decided JB could have them. Then she said that she bought them for JB period. THEN, she said that JB picked them out, so she bought them. And that's all in ONE interview! She said that her PI's had taken the pack of underwear, knowing that they were important!

John:

Evidence tampering- same. His fibers are all over her underwear crotch, and since a panel of doctors said that she'd been molested prior to the killing, one CAN make the inference that he knew about it and was involved in staging the sexual assault.

Hindering an investigation-said JB never woke up that night. Burke said she did. Said Burke was asleep, then said he was awake but laying in bed pretending to sleep, then that he was up and around and asking questions. He sent his private investigators to sabotage potential witnesses, which culminated in trying to dig up dirt on Tom Miller in case he was ever called to testify at trial to say what he concluded: Patsy wrote the note.

I know what you're thinking, Wudge: "SuperDave's an idiot, he's a fool, he's a clown. He's heartless, vindictive, cruel, base," etc, etc.

But I'm NOT! Even in my weakest moments, I still have great sympathy for Patsy and John. They deserved a lot better. So did Burke and JB. I said I would convict, yes. But I am not without compassion. I am not heartless. I was greatly saddened by Patsy's passing. I admit, sometimes, in my weakest moments, I would give into hate and anger and imagine Patsy and John in prison having unspeakable things done to them by the inmates, but not anymore. I have tremendous guilt about those feelings and I attribute it to the fact that I am young and hotheaded. That doesn't excuse it, I know. But even though I would convict, I would not seek to punish. It was their loss. That's tough enough.

And i am certainly not a fool, nor am I capable of being fooled.
"I just don't think they would have stood by the other one if one had murdered their child."

Oh, yes they would! Patsy was a definite stand-by-your-man type. And as for John, he'd already screwed up his first marriage with an affair. Do you really think he could admit to himself that he ruined his first marriage only to marry a monster? Not likely!

"How much proof do you need? Most of the evidence points straight to a Ramsey, in particular Patsy Ramsey. And for good reason, because she is the one responsiible for her daughter's death. Karr is a wannabe, his DNA won't match, this was never a DNA case anyway. His story will fall apart on closer investigation, in fact it already is falling apart."

Until I know more, I have to agree.

"A grand Jury and a judge say the R's could not have done it. (or not enough evidence to prove it)
Certainly they were privy to info we are not?"

I don't know about the grand jury, but it is PROVABLE that the judge did not see the evidence the police had gathered, Amraan. I can prove that.
 
capps said:
As far as the ex finding Christmas photos from 1996,would seem hard, unless she has all her photo albums in order. I am fairly orderly with my pics,but there are still some holidays from years ago,that I did not write the date on the back,or had a date stamped on them.
The Karr children were 3, 4, and 5, years of age at that time, so it shouldn't be that difficult for her to find the Christmas pictures, if she dioes have them.
 
SuperDave said:
Yeah, I'm sure it would take me a while to find my albums!

"Thank you. Now, make your case for conviction on each charge."

Okay, now I'm REALLY thinking this is a set-up!

Second-degree murder- okay, here's how it goes. Patsy's fibers are tied into the knots of the cord that strangled her daughter. They are also in the box where the paintbrush came that made the handle. They are also on the strip of duct tape. She claimed she never wore that sweater in the basement and that she never saw the cord before. Also, her story about transfering fibers to JB by laying on her is contradicted by her own book, which states that John had already covered the body before Patsy saw it. The garrote is what actually killed her, we know that, but the evidence suggests that it was purely for cosmetic purposes. Such as: there is no solid evidence that JB struggled at all against it. No tongue damage, no larynx damage, no hyoid bone damage, no thyroid damage to speak of, no indication that the cord slid up and down her neck from her bucking against it, and no indication of scratch marks on her neck trying to claw at it. If that HAD been the case, her arms would be bruised, her fingernails LOADED with skin, and they weren't. Not only that, but the ligature itself was really impractical. There was a foot and a half of length between it and the handle. Imagine, if you will, how far you would have to move your arm up and back to make it work. The shorter, the better. Not only that, but the knot experts consulted said that the knots were very simple. Anyone could have made it. I have myself many times. BUT, at no time is this premeditated. You can't murder someone you think is already dead, and in this case, it looked like she's been killed by the head blow. But even then, there's no evidence that it was premeditated. Dr. Richard Krugman said that the blow was delivered in a fit of anger, which, thanks to concernedperson here on this site, we know Patsy was known to have. But it was NOT premeditated. No evidence suggests that.

Evidence tampering- ah, that's from the other staging aspects. One, the ties around her wrists were very loose. The coroner slipped them right off. And there was about another foot and a half of space between each wrist. Tell me that YOU couldn't move your arms if you had that much space between them. These were not handcuffs. Two, the injury to her vagina from the paintbrush was very quick. It was jabbed in once. It wasn't, that we know of, moved around a lot. The FBI said that the sexual assault was not done for a pedophile killer's pleasure. They are probably right. A REAL pedophile killer would have caused much more damage in a much more intimate way. You don't have to take my word for that, either. Remember Danielle Van Dam? PLUS, the body was wiped down very gently. If a real sex killer had done that to wipe out evidence, he would have stripped it clean of skin. The duct tape over her mouth was also impractical. It was a two-inch square with absolutely NO deformation from her fighting it and a PERFECT set of lip prints on it. That means that she was dead when it was put on. Had to be. If you wanted a kid to keep quiet, wouldn't you put the tape on in multiple layers BEFORE you killed her? The note: it's a long, rambling, stream-of-consciousness treatise on the evils of American business which degenerates into a rant against John specifically with all of her phraseology and little sayings in it. Also, if the killer had come to kill her, why write a ransom note? It would have been more like Scorpio's note in "Dirty Harry."

Hindering an investigation-well, she lied to police. She said that she bought the overlarge panties for her neice, then decided JB could have them. Then she said that she bought them for JB period. THEN, she said that JB picked them out, so she bought them. And that's all in ONE interview! She said that her PI's had taken the pack of underwear, knowing that they were important!

John:

Evidence tampering- same. His fibers are all over her underwear crotch, and since a panel of doctors said that she'd been molested prior to the killing, one CAN make the inference that he knew about it and was involved in staging the sexual assault.

Hindering an investigation-said JB never woke up that night. Burke said she did. Said Burke was asleep, then said he was awake but laying in bed pretending to sleep, then that he was up and around and asking questions. He sent his private investigators to sabotage potential witnesses, which culminated in trying to dig up dirt on Tom Miller in case he was ever called to testify at trial to say what he concluded: Patsy wrote the note.

I know what you're thinking, Wudge: "SuperDave's an idiot, he's a fool, he's a clown. He's heartless, vindictive, cruel, base," etc, etc.

But I'm NOT! Even in my weakest moments, I still have great sympathy for Patsy and John. They deserved a lot better. So did Burke and JB. I said I would convict, yes. But I am not without compassion. I am not heartless. I was greatly saddened by Patsy's passing. I admit, sometimes, in my weakest moments, I would give into hate and anger and imagine Patsy and John in prison having unspeakable things done to them by the inmates, but not anymore. I have tremendous guilt about those feelings and I attribute it to the fact that I am young and hotheaded. That doesn't excuse it, I know. But even though I would convict, I would not seek to punish. It was their loss. That's tough enough.

And i am certainly not a fool, nor am I capable of being fooled.
"I just don't think they would have stood by the other one if one had murdered their child."

Oh, yes they would! Patsy was a definite stand-by-your-man type. And as for John, he'd already screwed up his first marriage with an affair. Do you really think he could admit to himself that he ruined his first marriage only to marry a monster? Not likely!

"How much proof do you need? Most of the evidence points straight to a Ramsey, in particular Patsy Ramsey. And for good reason, because she is the one responsiible for her daughter's death. Karr is a wannabe, his DNA won't match, this was never a DNA case anyway. His story will fall apart on closer investigation, in fact it already is falling apart."

Until I know more, I have to agree.

"A grand Jury and a judge say the R's could not have done it. (or not enough evidence to prove it)
Certainly they were privy to info we are not?"

I don't know about the grand jury, but it is PROVABLE that the judge did not see the evidence the police had gathered, Amraan. I can prove that.

You are Super, Dave. That is how I see it now and 9 1/2 years ago. By Patsy calling 911 all those years ago could have saved alot of people alot of grief.
 
Pepper said:
I believe John Ramsey is a victim.

He lost a daughter in 1992, another daughter in 1996, and his wife in 2006. He has been under an umbrella of suspicion for the past 10 years, and I sincerely hope that this case is solved and he is vindicated.

I believe he is deserving of the same respect and no trash rule as all the other victims of crime on this forum - Mark Lundsford comes to mind.




My sentiments exactly, Pepper - and very well stated! Thank you - I totally agree.


I've always admired the stance Websleuths has adopted and enforced on not bashing or trashing the victims of crime .. or subsequently, their surviving family members - who are also very much victims of the crime.

In addition to Mark Lundsford - Danielle Van Dam's parents (David Westerfield victims) come to mind .. along with Laci Peterson's parents - Sharon, Ron & Dennis. Then there's Natalee Holloway's parents (Beth, Dave, Jug) .. and yes, by all means, JonBenet's parents .. John & Patsy Ramsey. IMHO - they all deserve to be spoken about in respectful verbiage.

Why is it acceptable and even routine "only on the JBR Forum" to consistently bash n' trash the grief stricken parents??

Aren't they also considered "victims" of this horrific sexual assault & brutal murder of their much loved and doted upon 6 yr. old little princess??

Why is it okay, here on WS, to viciously bash John & Patsy .. who, incidentally, have never been charged or indicted on anything related to JB's murder - yet, a WS member faces a T/O, suspension or banishment to speak so freely on any other case or forum?

I'd really like to know the reasoning behind what I consider to be "a double standard" on WS.

Respectfully ...

13th Juror
 
13th Juror said:
I'd really like to know the reasoning behind what I consider to be "a double standard" on WS.

Respectfully ...

13th Juror
[/color]

It doesn't matter what the reasoning is...Everyone is free to go elsewhere. You don't have to go too far to find a forum that supports the Ramsey's and bashes all of those that believe the R's are guilty.

The R's are where they are because of their actions and the things they have said. They may be innocent, but they may not be. That's the way it is...I personally think that this guy that confessed isn't the killer...but time will tell. And there's no way I'm giving the R's a pass. It's as simple as that. Too many questions. I'm not bashing the R's...I just have too many questions when it comes to them.
 
There are Ramsey supporters who feel discussing the fact that evidence points to John and Patsy's involvement as "bashing." I've been cussed out and called names on other boards for daring to say that I think the Ramseys look guilty, and all I did was point out fiber evidence and inconsistant stories, etc - no actual Ramsey bashing, such as calling them names or otherwise insulting them intentionally. I have more respect for JonBenet than to resort to insulting her parents no matter what my personal opinion of them is.

It's my opinion that Patsy went too far with the costumes and routines that she equipped JonBenet with in the child beauty pageants - is it Ramsey bashing to say so? Some people think it is.

luvbeaches said:
It doesn't matter what the reasoning is...Everyone is free to go elsewhere. You don't have to go to far to find a forum that supports the Ramsey's and bashes all of those that believe the R's are guilty.
Check out the Ramsey threads at the Court TV boards. Up until this week with the Karr breakthrough and a flux of new posters, you submit a reply at the risk of being called a liar and accused of spreading gossip anytime you say anything that denies total Ramsey innocence.
 
SuperDave said:
Yeah, I'm sure it would take me a while to find my albums!

"Thank you. Now, make your case for conviction on each charge."

Okay, now I'm REALLY thinking this is a set-up!

Second-degree murder- okay, here's how it goes. Patsy's fibers are tied into the knots of the cord that strangled her daughter. They are also in the box where the paintbrush came that made the handle. They are also on the strip of duct tape. She claimed she never wore that sweater in the basement and that she never saw the cord before. Also, her story about transfering fibers to JB by laying on her is contradicted by her own book, which states that John had already covered the body before Patsy saw it. The garrote is what actually killed her, we know that, but the evidence suggests that it was purely for cosmetic purposes. Such as: there is no solid evidence that JB struggled at all against it. No tongue damage, no larynx damage, no hyoid bone damage, no thyroid damage to speak of, no indication that the cord slid up and down her neck from her bucking against it, and no indication of scratch marks on her neck trying to claw at it. If that HAD been the case, her arms would be bruised, her fingernails LOADED with skin, and they weren't. Not only that, but the ligature itself was really impractical. There was a foot and a half of length between it and the handle. Imagine, if you will, how far you would have to move your arm up and back to make it work. The shorter, the better. Not only that, but the knot experts consulted said that the knots were very simple. Anyone could have made it. I have myself many times. BUT, at no time is this premeditated. You can't murder someone you think is already dead, and in this case, it looked like she's been killed by the head blow. But even then, there's no evidence that it was premeditated. Dr. Richard Krugman said that the blow was delivered in a fit of anger, which, thanks to concernedperson here on this site, we know Patsy was known to have. But it was NOT premeditated. No evidence suggests that.

Evidence tampering- ah, that's from the other staging aspects. One, the ties around her wrists were very loose. The coroner slipped them right off. And there was about another foot and a half of space between each wrist. Tell me that YOU couldn't move your arms if you had that much space between them. These were not handcuffs. Two, the injury to her vagina from the paintbrush was very quick. It was jabbed in once. It wasn't, that we know of, moved around a lot. The FBI said that the sexual assault was not done for a pedophile killer's pleasure. They are probably right. A REAL pedophile killer would have caused much more damage in a much more intimate way. You don't have to take my word for that, either. Remember Danielle Van Dam? PLUS, the body was wiped down very gently. If a real sex killer had done that to wipe out evidence, he would have stripped it clean of skin. The duct tape over her mouth was also impractical. It was a two-inch square with absolutely NO deformation from her fighting it and a PERFECT set of lip prints on it. That means that she was dead when it was put on. Had to be. If you wanted a kid to keep quiet, wouldn't you put the tape on in multiple layers BEFORE you killed her? The note: it's a long, rambling, stream-of-consciousness treatise on the evils of American business which degenerates into a rant against John specifically with all of her phraseology and little sayings in it. Also, if the killer had come to kill her, why write a ransom note? It would have been more like Scorpio's note in "Dirty Harry."

Hindering an investigation-well, she lied to police. She said that she bought the overlarge panties for her neice, then decided JB could have them. Then she said that she bought them for JB period. THEN, she said that JB picked them out, so she bought them. And that's all in ONE interview! She said that her PI's had taken the pack of underwear, knowing that they were important!

John:

Evidence tampering- same. His fibers are all over her underwear crotch, and since a panel of doctors said that she'd been molested prior to the killing, one CAN make the inference that he knew about it and was involved in staging the sexual assault.

Hindering an investigation-said JB never woke up that night. Burke said she did. Said Burke was asleep, then said he was awake but laying in bed pretending to sleep, then that he was up and around and asking questions. He sent his private investigators to sabotage potential witnesses, which culminated in trying to dig up dirt on Tom Miller in case he was ever called to testify at trial to say what he concluded: Patsy wrote the note.

I know what you're thinking, Wudge: "SuperDave's an idiot, he's a fool, he's a clown. He's heartless, vindictive, cruel, base," etc, etc.

But I'm NOT! Even in my weakest moments, I still have great sympathy for Patsy and John. They deserved a lot better. So did Burke and JB. I said I would convict, yes. But I am not without compassion. I am not heartless. I was greatly saddened by Patsy's passing. I admit, sometimes, in my weakest moments, I would give into hate and anger and imagine Patsy and John in prison having unspeakable things done to them by the inmates, but not anymore. I have tremendous guilt about those feelings and I attribute it to the fact that I am young and hotheaded. That doesn't excuse it, I know. But even though I would convict, I would not seek to punish. It was their loss. That's tough enough.

And i am certainly not a fool, nor am I capable of being fooled.
"I just don't think they would have stood by the other one if one had murdered their child."

Oh, yes they would! Patsy was a definite stand-by-your-man type. And as for John, he'd already screwed up his first marriage with an affair. Do you really think he could admit to himself that he ruined his first marriage only to marry a monster? Not likely!

"How much proof do you need? Most of the evidence points straight to a Ramsey, in particular Patsy Ramsey. And for good reason, because she is the one responsiible for her daughter's death. Karr is a wannabe, his DNA won't match, this was never a DNA case anyway. His story will fall apart on closer investigation, in fact it already is falling apart."

Until I know more, I have to agree.

"A grand Jury and a judge say the R's could not have done it. (or not enough evidence to prove it)
Certainly they were privy to info we are not?"

I don't know about the grand jury, but it is PROVABLE that the judge did not see the evidence the police had gathered, Amraan. I can prove that.


Dave, you responded to my request. I will not be undue. I wiil net out.

Your evidence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that would support Patsy being guilt of second-degree murder is based on fibers found on the rope and duct tape (rope and duct tape not found in the home or sourced to the Ramseys) that were found on Jon Benet's body. Your conviction on other charges are predicated on satisfying the first.

In my estimation, given all that is know about the case, at best, your circumstantial evidence case is horribly weak. Moreover, jury instructions for circumstantial evidence mandate that jurors must accept any reasonable alternative explanation from the defense.

At a macro level, it was Patsy's home in which you would ask the jury to: focus on Patsy's sweater, Patsy's paintbox, Patsy's paintbrush, the rope and duct tape. If you reflect, I would hope you realize that inside Patsy's home, her clothing fiber residue would exist on surfaces throughout the house and be available for transference at any point in time. Using that intuitively obvious truth, a defense team would offset your inductively inferred conclusion by offering a multitude of reasonable alternative explanations to a jury.

By law, the jury would be required to accept the defense's explanation and find for the defendant(s).

When considering inductive inference sales (selling an inferred theory/conclusion), whether experts or not, I advise people to strongly consider if their theory/conclusion could really withstand both the mandated jury instructions I noted earlier and a brutal cross-examination that would test the reliability of their theory/conclusion. And please understand that only experts would be allowed to opine their conclusion. So the State would have to find an expert who agreed with you and was also willing to take face a brutal cross-examination.

Prosecutors want to win cases. To gain a win, they need to have evidence that will not fall prey to mandated jury instructions or have the reliability of expert's conclusion destroyed in a withering cross. And prosecutors had the same fiber knowldege.

Further, please remember that, separately, the defense would offer to a jury many things that point to an intruder -- for reference, read Judge Carnes report.

The bottom line is: I don't see your case coming anywhere close to breaching the hurdle of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And I have a hard time believing that, as you expressed your case, you truly believe you could run a trial's gauntlet and make the sale.

You did take the time to pen your case. I give you credit for that, not many do.
 
Wudge said:
Dave, you responded to my request. I will not be undue. I wiil net out.

Your evidence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that would support Patsy being guilt of second-degree murder is based on fibers found on the rope and duct tape (rope and duct tape not found in the home or sourced to the Ramseys) that was found on Jon Benet's body. Your conviction on other charges are predicated on satisfying the first.

In my estimation, given all that is know about the case, at best, your circumstantial evidence case is horribly weak. Moreover, jury instructions for circumstantial evidence mandate that jurors must accept any reasonable alternative explanation from the defense.

At a macro level, it was Patsy's home in which you would ask the jury to: focus on Patsy's sweater, Patsy's paintbox, Patsy's paintbrush, the rope and duct tape. If you reflect, I would hope you realize that inside Patsy's home, her clothing fiber residue would exist on surfaces throughout the house and be available for transference at any point in time. Using that intuitively obvious truth, a defense team would offset your inductively inferred conclusion by offering a multitude of reasonable alternative explanations to a jury.

By law, the jury would be required to accept the defense's explanation and find for the defendant(s).

When considering inductive inference sales (selling an inferred theory/conclusion), whether experts or not, I advise people to strongly consider if their theory/conclusion could really withstand both the mandated jury instructions I noted earlier and a brutal cross-examination that would test the reliability of their theory/conclusion. And please understand that only experts would be allowed to opine their conclusion. So the State would have to find an expert who agreed with you and was also willing to take face a brutal cross-examination.

Prosecutors want to win cases. To gain a win, they need to have evidence that will not fall prey to mandated jury instructions or have the reliability of expert's conclusion destroyed in a withering cross. And prosecutors had the same fiber knowldege.

Further, please remember that, separately, the defense would offer to a jury many things that point to an intruder -- for reference, read Judge Carnes report.

The bottom line is: I don't see your case coming anywhere close to breaching the hurdle of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And I have a hard time believing that, as you expressed your case, you truly believe you could run a trial's gauntlet and make the sale.

You did take the time to pen your case. I give you credit for that, not many do.



Hey there wudge, ol' buddy.....long time no argue, and I won't start now. Totally agree.
 
TexMex said:
Hey there wudge, ol' buddy.....long time no argue, and I won't start now. Totally agree.


Hi Tex, yes, LTNS.

I have seen your recent posts on other crime forums regarding this case. So I knew you were playing in this rat hole too. (chuckle and salute)
 
Peter Hamilton said:
SuperDave--excellent post

I agree......super post. What a waste of time to take this John Karr for questioning! Boy is that DA going to have egg on her face.

xxxxxxxoooooooo
mama
 
Wudge said:
If it were ever to get published, I think Buzz nailed the likely book hawk ... Gloria. (per JBean, the G word...lol)

Karr's former wife, however, has had three days to locate any exonerating Xmas photo or video, and her attorney did not give the slightest inkling yesterday that any such trinket had yet been found.
Even if JMK's former wife finds dated Christmas pictures, it is still possible that he was not with his family later Christmas Day and the next day.

Our family often celebrated Christmas at FOUR different homes of family on the 25th. Christmas pictures are taken at each. My husband often attended three of the four events but opted out of the Christmas Day, long trips to my extended South Georgia Family Christmas celebrations. Often, my children, mother, brother and his family would go the 25th and spend the night... When hubby did go with us, he most often avoided the photo opts there like the plague! In 1996, I have no idea and no proof as to whether he went with us or not... I told him yesterday, he could very well be a suspect in JBR's murder.... :( He told me even the off chance of being a murder suspect wouldn't coherse him into going to one of my holiday family gatherings!:(
 
Wudge said:
Dave, you responded to my request. I will not be undue. I wiil net out.

Your evidence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that would support Patsy being guilt of second-degree murder is based on fibers found on the rope and duct tape (rope and duct tape not found in the home or sourced to the Ramseys) that were found on Jon Benet's body. Your conviction on other charges are predicated on satisfying the first.

In my estimation, given all that is know about the case, at best, your circumstantial evidence case is horribly weak. Moreover, jury instructions for circumstantial evidence mandate that jurors must accept any reasonable alternative explanation from the defense.

At a macro level, it was Patsy's home in which you would ask the jury to: focus on Patsy's sweater, Patsy's paintbox, Patsy's paintbrush, the rope and duct tape. If you reflect, I would hope you realize that inside Patsy's home, her clothing fiber residue would exist on surfaces throughout the house and be available for transference at any point in time. Using that intuitively obvious truth, a defense team would offset your inductively inferred conclusion by offering a multitude of reasonable alternative explanations to a jury.

By law, the jury would be required to accept the defense's explanation and find for the defendant(s).

When considering inductive inference sales (selling an inferred theory/conclusion), whether experts or not, I advise people to strongly consider if their theory/conclusion could really withstand both the mandated jury instructions I noted earlier and a brutal cross-examination that would test the reliability of their theory/conclusion. And please understand that only experts would be allowed to opine their conclusion. So the State would have to find an expert who agreed with you and was also willing to take face a brutal cross-examination.

Prosecutors want to win cases. To gain a win, they need to have evidence that will not fall prey to mandated jury instructions or have the reliability of expert's conclusion destroyed in a withering cross. And prosecutors had the same fiber knowldege.

Further, please remember that, separately, the defense would offer to a jury many things that point to an intruder -- for reference, read Judge Carnes report.

The bottom line is: I don't see your case coming anywhere close to breaching the hurdle of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And I have a hard time believing that, as you expressed your case, you truly believe you could run a trial's gauntlet and make the sale.

You did take the time to pen your case. I give you credit for that, not many do.
Agreed. I am on the fence of if it was a parent or intruder but there is no way you could take this to court based on what Super Dave said which is absed on evidence/stuff shared to the public. I'd think if it could be it would have already happened.

Based on the certainty some have here of their guilt, I do wonder
if they do have a good match of the DNA to Karr if some will accept that or try and pass it off and say that karr was the guy working in the underwear plant or maybe he sold them to the Patsy from the store and got his dna on them there.

I just want to one day know what basically happened and for justice to be served.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Check out the Ramsey threads at the Court TV boards. Up until this week with the Karr breakthrough and a flux of new posters, you submit a reply at the risk of being called a liar and accused of spreading gossip anytime you say anything that denies total Ramsey innocence.

I quit going there a long time ago (I think it was during the Scott Peterson trial). I am amazed that Court TV allowed their boards to get as out of control as they are.

I have to wonder why anyone would defend them. I have no reason to want them to be guilty, but there's just so many things that don't add up when it comes to the R's. All I want is justice for JonBenet. Be it a family memeber or a stranger...she deserves it.

You're brave to go over to Court TV! :)
 
RJML said:
Agreed. I am on the fence of if it was a parent or intruder but there is no way you could take this to court based on what Super Dave said which is absed on evidence/stuff shared to the public. I'd think if it could be it would have already happened.

Based on the certainty some have here of their guilt, I do wonder
if they do have a good match of the DNA to Karr if some will accept that or try and pass it off and say that karr was the guy working in the underwear plant or maybe he sold them to the Patsy from the store and got his dna on them there.

I just want to one day know what basically happened and for justice to be served.
Great work, SuperDave.I too have been sitting on the fenceI have worked out lots of different scenerios regarding all suspects but it is all based on public info. There is a big chunk of the picture missing. I hope LE have it.If they do not we are never going to know the truth. I am not so worried who did as to getting justice for a murdered child.
 

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