Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[MyBelle]

Enough with snide comments, let's discuss Paul Thorsen. what about Thorsen being a fraud and his research and studies that supposedly disproved Wakefields were all made up? And he's on the run for stealing 2 million dollars? I find it hard to believe that on this forum of all forums, when people such as yourself are so keen on the law and lawbreakers such as non vaccinating parents be jailed and charged - aren't outraged that the data relied on is faked.

Just as a reminder - from the Office of the Inspector General a little bio

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

and


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html


how independent are vaccine defenders?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-independent-are-vaccine-defenders/

Your twisted rhetoric is getting pretty silly. Your links do NOT even suggest Thorsen's research studies were "all made up."

There is a dramatic difference between Thorsen's financial fraud and Wakefield's scientific research fraud.

Thorsen's financial crime has absolutely nothing to do with the scientific validity of Thorsen's research.

Wakefield's scientific research crime has endangered the lives of children all over the world and the medical community wants him prosecuted.

He notes how the “fraudulent and discredited” work of British researcher Andrew Wakefield has undermined public trust in vaccines around the world. Wakefield was found to have falsified data in a study that linked autism to the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and was barred from practicing medicine in the U.K. because of his misconduct.


http://o.canada.com/news/toronto-doctor-says-its-time-to-lock-up-research-miscreants

 

[MyBelle]

Pretty sure that's not an MSM link - but it seems to only matter on one side of the isle of this debate.

I haven't seen that the percentage of non-vax families has risen drastically - it's stayed the same ...roughly 5% which shouldn't impact vaccinated people - *IF* the vaccinations worked. The declining efficacy of the vaccinations and shelf life should be a concern to those who put their trust in the vaccines.

It's not as settled as the "pro" side would like it believed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-17509/Why-Japan-banned-MMR-vaccine.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ter-award-over-child-with-autism-7858596.html

Fortunately, the "Pro side" is also the side setting public policy.

My link is within TOS. It is to a page of the:

The History of Vaccines is an award-winning informational, educational website created by The College of Physicians of Philadelphia, one of the oldest medical societies in the United States. A group of prominent Philadelphia physicians, including Declaration of Independence signer Benjamin Rush, established the College in 1787 “to advance the science of medicine and to thereby lessen human misery.”

Today, the College’s mission is "to advance the cause of health while upholding the ideals and heritage of medicine." All aspects of the College—its Fellows, its Historical Medical Library, the world-renowned Mütter Museum, its public health initiatives, and its public lecture series—serve this mission.

The College of Physicians of Philadelphia is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization.

 

[Charlie09]

Your twisted rhetoric is getting pretty silly. Your links do NOT even suggest Thorsen's research studies were "all made up."

There is a dramatic difference between Thorsen's financial fraud and Wakefield's scientific research fraud.

Thorsen's financial crime has absolutely nothing to do with the scientific validity of Thorsen's research.

Wakefield's scientific research crime has endangered the lives of children all over the world and the medical community wants him prosecuted.

He notes how the “fraudulent and discredited” work of British researcher Andrew Wakefield has undermined public trust in vaccines around the world. Wakefield was found to have falsified data in a study that linked autism to the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and was barred from practicing medicine in the U.K. because of his misconduct.


http://o.canada.com/news/toronto-doctor-says-its-time-to-lock-up-research-miscreants

No, Thorsen falsified research too.
And where has Wakefield been charged?

 

[MyBelle]

Ccc

KZ, that is my point. Who he is. He is saying there can be no discussion. This man you hold as the top medical ethicist has pretty much disqualified himself from that label by taking that position. And it is relevant that front line physicians don't support that rhetoric, because it isn't productive.

I know quite a few front-line physicians who support his position. My grandchildren are infants and their pediatric clinic sent a letter to parents months ago stating vaccinations are required.

 

[K_Z]

Ccc

KZ, that is my point. Who he is. He is saying there can be no discussion. This man you hold as the top medical ethicist has pretty much disqualified himself from that label by taking that position. And it is relevant that front line physicians don't support that rhetoric, because it isn't productive.

Well, I happen to strongly agree with him. There is no level of any kind of diplomacy or discussion that works with the anti-vaxers. They are not rational, reasonable people in this area, IMO, and their actions harm others. I don't believe this is a reasonable or rational "choice" worthy of "equal" discussion/ debate, as has been promoted by reporters eager to be "PC". This is not a "choice", like are you going to take vitamins or not.

I am especially outraged by the "measles mommies" parties, with the goal of intentional exposure and reckless spreading of disease to "whomever" is vulnerable. These people need to be found, and criminally charged and prosecuted, IMO.

I actually don't care if national discussion is "productive" anymore. If I was the parent of one of the 8 babies in the Palatine daycare, I'd initiate a lawsuit, or 2 or 3.

IMO, people who intentionally avoid vaccination are reckless, and irresponsible, period. I think the time has come to legislate this problem away, restrict their privileges in society, and begin to hold these individuals responsible civilly and criminally when appropriate. There is simply no excuse for this level of ignorance in a developed , wealthy country, and we put vulnerable poor countries at serious risk with our "jet setting help".

It's very sad and frustrating. There is nothing I admire, or could ever even muster grudging respect for, about people refusing vaccinations for themselves and their kids. I agree with Arthur Caplan and others. There is simply no valid "debate" here.

 

[MyBelle]

No, Thorsen falsified research too.
And where has Wakefield been charged?

It is your opinion that Thorsen falsified research. It is not fact.

I didn't say Wakefield had been charged, I posted a link to a news report quoting a Canadian physician advocating he should be charged.

 

[Charlie09]

Your twisted rhetoric is getting pretty silly. Your links do NOT even suggest Thorsen's research studies were "all made up."

There is a dramatic difference between Thorsen's financial fraud and Wakefield's scientific research fraud.

Thorsen's financial crime has absolutely nothing to do with the scientific validity of Thorsen's research.

Wakefield's scientific research crime has endangered the lives of children all over the world and the medical community wants him prosecuted.

He notes how the “fraudulent and discredited” work of British researcher Andrew Wakefield has undermined public trust in vaccines around the world. Wakefield was found to have falsified data in a study that linked autism to the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and was barred from practicing medicine in the U.K. because of his misconduct.


http://o.canada.com/news/toronto-doctor-says-its-time-to-lock-up-research-miscreants

By the way I think it's important to add that Prof John Walker won his case in England (he was the co-author of Wakefield's study) He was returned to fully licensed physician. The judge said in reversing the decision
"The judge criticised the disciplinary panel's "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion". "

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...lkersmith-wins-high-court-appeal-7543114.html

 

[MyBelle]

Well, I happen to strongly agree with him. There is no level of any kind of diplomacy or discussion that works with the anti-vaxers. They are not rational, reasonable people in this area, IMO, and their actions harm others. I don't believe this is a reasonable or rational "choice" worthy of "equal" discussion/ debate, as has been promoted by reporters eager to be "PC". This is not a "choice", like are you going to take vitamins or not.

I am especially outraged by the "measles mommies" parties, with the goal of intentional exposure and reckless spreading of disease to "whomever" is vulnerable. These people need to be found, and criminally charged and prosecuted, IMO.

I actually don't care if national discussion is "productive" anymore. If I was the parent of one of the 8 babies in the Palatine daycare, I'd initiate a lawsuit, or 2 or 3.

IMO, people who intentionally avoid vaccination are reckless, and irresponsible, period. I think the time has come to legislate this problem away, restrict their privileges in society, and begin to hold these individuals responsible civilly and criminally when appropriate. There is simply no excuse for this level of ignorance in a developed , wealthy country, and we put vulnerable poor countries at serious risk with our "jet setting help".

It's very sad and frustrating. There is nothing I admire, or could ever even muster grudging respect for, about people refusing vaccinations for themselves and their kids. I agree with Arthur Caplan and others. There is simply no valid "debate" here.

I'm with you. The debate is long over. The count in Chicagoland is now up to 11. It is a huge populated area where the primary form of transportation into the city isn't just by car, it is by mass transit.

 

[Charlie09]

It is your opinion that Thorsen falsified research. It is not fact.

I didn't say Wakefield had been charged, I posted a link to a news report quoting a Canadian physician advocating he should be charged.

It is one of several allegations against Paul Thorsen - and how do you trust anything when he was falsifying data in general? He had some kind of integrity that he only falsified financial documents?

Who cares, he hasn't broken any laws.

 

[MyBelle]

By the way I think it's important to add that Prof John Walker won his case in England (he was the co-author of Wakefield's study) He was returned to fully licensed physician. The judge said in reversing the decision
"The judge criticised the disciplinary panel's "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion". "

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...lkersmith-wins-high-court-appeal-7543114.html

Walker-Smith was retired at least a decade when he won his appeal. He isn't practicing medicine therefore he is not endangering children.

 

[Charlie09]

Walker-Smith was retired at least a decade when he won his appeal. He isn't practicing medicine therefore he is not endangering children.

But he can practice medicine- his name was cleared.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

By the way I think it's important to add that Prof John Walker won his case in England (he was the co-author of Wakefield's study) He was returned to fully licensed physician. The judge said in reversing the decision
"The judge criticised the disciplinary panel's "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion". "

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...lkersmith-wins-high-court-appeal-7543114.html

Having read the article, I think it is important to add that the decision said nothing about the validity of the research, that the "superficial reasoning" and "wrong conclusion" referred to the panel's conclusion about Walker's reasons for being involved in the research.

There was no judgment in this decision regarding the validity of the research itself.

On another note, I found this in the news, BBM:

"At last count, there were 121 cases of measles in 17 states and the District of Columbia, and 80 percent occurred among unvaccinated individuals."

http://www.bu.edu/today/2015/pov-its-time-to-take-the-controversy-out-of-vaccination/

 

[Charlie09]

Having read the article, I think it is important to add that the decision said nothing about the validity of the research, that the "superficial reasoning" and "wrong conclusion" referred to the panel's conclusion about Walker's reasons for being involved in the research.

There was no judgment in this decision regarding the validity of the research itself.

On another note, I found this in the news, BBM:

"At last count, there were 121 cases of measles in 17 states and the District of Columbia, and 80 percent occurred among unvaccinated individuals."

http://www.bu.edu/today/2015/pov-its-time-to-take-the-controversy-out-of-vaccination/

He was cleared and his medical license reinstated - the judge basically said the GMC hearings were a sham.

seems like a high rate of failure for those who were vaccinated and got it anyway.

 

[annahanna]

Having read the article, I think it is important to add that the decision said nothing about the validity of the research, that the "superficial reasoning" and "wrong conclusion" referred to the panel's conclusion about Walker's reasons for being involved in the research.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress...tor-uk-general-medical-given-sound-thrashing/
This is a link to the actual court ruling. I have to agree, the court ruling did not exonerate the research itself or Wakefield. (In fact, it seems to cast Wakefield in a bad light.). It was simply a ruling that the GMC used flawed reasoning and reached the wrong conclusions concerning Walker Smith. This ruling reversed the sanction of erasure of Walker Smith's name from the register of medical practitioners. Walker smith had actually retired in 2001 - years before charges were even brought.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

He was cleared and his medical license reinstated - the judge basically said the GMC hearings were a sham.

seems like a high rate of failure for those who were vaccinated and got it anyway.

But the judge did not say that because the GMC hearings were a sham, the research results were valid. These are two separate issues no matter how hard you try to conflate them.

As to your second point, this explains it very well:

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-people-get-measles-disneyland-blame-unvaccinated/

 

[annahanna]

Enough with snide comments, let's discuss Paul Thorsen. what about Thorsen being a fraud and his research and studies that supposedly disproved Wakefields were all made up? And he's on the run for stealing 2 million dollars? I find it hard to believe that on this forum of all forums, when people such as yourself are so keen on the law and lawbreakers such as non vaccinating parents be jailed and charged - aren't outraged that the data relied on is faked.

Just as a reminder - from the Office of the Inspector General a little bio

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

and


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html


how independent are vaccine defenders?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-independent-are-vaccine-defenders/

Yes, let's discuss Poul Thorsen.

Who is Poul Thorsen? Danish scientist and researcher Poul Thorsen contributed to 2 large Danish vaccine related studies in 2002 and 2003. Thorsen is currently under indictment for financial fraud in connection with the misappropriation of between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000 in CDC research grant money. He is currently residing in Denmark awaiting extradition to the US.

Several anti-vaccine groups (Age of Autism, Autism Action Network, Safeminds, and others) have seized upon the indictments and and leveled accusations of scientific and research fraud. They have claimed that the 2 vaccine studies he participated in were fraudulent, details were made up, and most importantly that Thorsen was a much more important part of the research team they he actually was.

Point 1: Anti-vaxx groups repeatedly refer to "Thorsen's studies" implying that he was the controlling researcher or senior researcher. The fact is that Thorsen played a much more minor role. He was listed in the middle of the listed authors for both A population based study of measels, mumps and rubella vaccination and autism (2002) and Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism; negative ecological evidence from Danish population based data (2003). Standard protocol in medical and scientific literature would be to list the most important contributors first and last. The fact that Thorsen was neither (nor was he the corresponding author) indicates that he would not have been in a position to direct, manipulate or falsify data.

Point 2: The groups listed above allege that since Thorsen committed financial fraud, he must of committed scientific fraud. There is no evidence or credible allegation of scientific fraud. As noted above, Thoreson did not appear to be in a position in the research group to have doctored data or committed fraud.

Point 3: Anti-vaxx groups imply (or out right state) that the 2 studies are the basis for exonerating the MMR vaccine and thimerosal. In fact, there have been numerous studies that have reached the exact same conclusions. There is no link between the MMR and autism. There is no link between thimerosal and autism.

Thorsen has not yet been convicted. His case has not yet gone to trial. If he is convicted of financial fraud, he should go to jail. However, there is no evidence that he committed fraud or made up date in the 2 vaccine studies. That contention is nothing but a red herring.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...raud-and-embezzlement-and-the-danish-studies/

https://finnaarupnielsen.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/poul-thorsen-a-new-milena-penkowa/

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poul_Thorsen

 

[Charlie09]

Yes, let's discuss Poul Thorsen.

Who is Poul Thorsen? Danish scientist and researcher Poul Thorsen contributed to 2 large Danish vaccine related studies in 2002 and 2003. Thorsen is currently under indictment for financial fraud in connection with the misappropriation of between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000 in CDC research grant money. He is currently residing in Denmark awaiting extradition to the US.

Several anti-vaccine groups (Age of Autism, Autism Action Network, Safeminds, and others) have seized upon the indictments and and leveled accusations of scientific and research fraud. They have claimed that the 2 vaccine studies he participated in were fraudulent, details were made up, and most importantly that Thorsen was a much more important part of the research team they he actually was.

Point 1: Anti-vaxx groups repeatedly refer to "Thorsen's studies" implying that he was the controlling researcher or senior researcher. The fact is that Thorsen played a much more minor role. He was listed in the middle of the listed authors for both A population based study of measels, mumps and rubella vaccination and autism (2002) and Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism; negative ecological evidence from Danish population based data (2003). Standard protocol in medical and scientific literature would be to list the most important contributors first and last. The fact that Thorsen was neither (nor was he the corresponding author) indicates that he would not have been in a position to direct, manipulate or falsify data.

Point 2: The groups listed above allege that since Thorsen committed financial fraud, he must of committed scientific fraud. There is no evidence or credible allegation of scientific fraud. As noted above, Thoreson did not appear to be in a position in the research group to have doctored data or committed fraud.

Point 3: Anti-vaxx groups imply (or out right state) that the 2 studies are the basis for exonerating the MMR vaccine and thimerosal. In fact, there have been numerous studies that have reached the exact same conclusions. There is no link between the MMR and autism. There is no link between thimerosal and autism.

Thorsen has not yet been convicted. His case has not yet gone to trial. If he is convicted of financial fraud, he should go to jail. However, there is no evidence that he committed fraud or made up date in the 2 vaccine studies. That contention is nothing but a red herring.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...raud-and-embezzlement-and-the-danish-studies/

https://finnaarupnielsen.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/poul-thorsen-a-new-milena-penkowa/

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poul_Thorsen

So now we can use wordpress blogs for our sources?

 

[annahanna]

Here's an interesting study about the "studies" of vaccine safety

You do realize that this is not a study at all. It is a literature review.

Literature reviews are generally low level overviews of selected studies - not used to make final determinations. If you are going to give this any credibility, you should tele note of this quote:
"Exposure to the MMR vaccine was unlikely to be associated with autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, bacterial or viral infections."

 

[Charlie09]

Great article by an MD

I am not advocating that vaccines be discontinued. I am advocating that doctors and patients become aware of the ingredients of these vaccines, what they can potentially do to affect an adverse outcome in an immunologically compromised child. Adverse reactions to MMR and other vaccines have been reported in numerous clinical trials and studies. I am advocating that medical practitioners and researchers, not journalists, address the real medical epidemics of autism, asthma, GI disease and autoimmune diseases facing our society and people around the world. Stop hyping the safety of MMR vaccines which may actually be more dangerous than live measles and may be ineffective in preventing the illness which they are so anxious to report as a dangerous epidemic itself. Let’s stop believing that the mainstream media is telling us the truth when all they are doing is shutting down any intelligent and open discussion about vaccine safety and how to improve it.

http://www.aimintegrativemedicine.com/blog/measles-matters

 

[annahanna]

So now we can use wordpress blogs for our sources?

You are welcome to disregard that if you wish. It was included simply as information about WHO Thorsen is - since he has been brought up several times in an attempt to falsely claim that the studies debunking the MMR /autism and Thimerosal /autism claims are falsified or "made up".