Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[Hiandmighty]

"I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to" satirical letter. It's pretty funny.





More at link:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to,37839/

Right, it would be a funny article if that wasn't what anti vaxxers think!

 

[Hiandmighty]

The good news is... California schools are starting to see kids going off exemption. Meaning, this has scared some of the parents and they have gone ahead and vaccinated their kids, even though they had an exemption to not vaccinate.

 

[LinasK]

I get that some folks want to be paranoid and angry about "big pharma". But being paranoid about something like measles vaccine making "big pharma" rich is ridiculous.

MMR vaccines have been available for over 50 years. They have saved millions of children and adults from being horribly sickened, and thousands and thousands from permanent complications of that disease. MMR costs on average less than $50, and many sources list the cost under $20. The current vaccines are over 99% effective. So, for a measely $20 or so, the "big pharma" companies are NOT getting rich off of MMR vaccines.

But you know what? Let's put on our thinking caps and look at the cost of even a $50 vaccine, that prevents illness in only one or a few people. How much does it cost to treat a child with measles who survives, but develops hearing loss? Is "big pharma" going to get rich off that? What is the cost of a child who develops measles encephalitis, and then dies after days of ICU treatment? I'd say that $18 to $50 MMR vaccine is a pretty cost effective investment, balanced against an outbreak or epidemic.

And think about this. Should health care workers be allowed to refuse vaccinations? Is that a good idea on any level, especially from a public health perspective? Even the most rabid "anti-vaxer" expects health care workers to not infect themselves or their children.

Here's a nice discussion from noted ethicist Arthur Caplan:

"Free To Choose, But Liable for the Consequences: Should Non- Vaccinators Be Penalized for the Harm They Do?

http://www.academia.edu/2344148/Fre...vaccinators_be_penalized_for_the_harm_they_do

If it's worth ranting and raving about "big pharma" getting rich, here are 2 issues to be justifiably ranting and raving about.

How about when pharmaceutical companies (big and small) decide to "stop making" drugs for rare diseases that cure or greatly improve the conditions of people unfortunately afflicted with rare diseases ("orphan drugs")? Why do they stop making the drugs? Well, they cost too much to make, and not enough people are sick enough to need them or buy them, even at huge costs. So "big pharma" can't make enough money off selling the drugs, so they decide certain people with certain illnesses aren't "worth" treating. That's worth ranting and raving about, especially if you know and love someone who needs those orphan drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_drug

Or, one could rant and rave about something like allergy and hay fever drugs. Big Pharma changes one measely molecule, or spins the compound left or right, and gets to patent it and market it as a whole NEW (and, of course *BETTER*) prescription-only drug! Then they get to charge exorbitant prices for this new drug, after a marketing campaign convincing (bamboozling) a large swath of the population that they *need* this new allergy medicine for their hay fever. (When one of the dozens on the market would work just as well for almost everyone, but the older, cheaper drugs just aren't as modern and sexy as the new "it" hayfever drug.)

I have a lot of "big pharma" things I could rant and rave about, but cost and availability of MMR vaccines isn't one of them.

That's not the only reason, I have 3 friends and a niece who are anti-vaxxers who are convinced, particularly in the case of two of them with autistic children, that the mercury in the DTap/TDap shot caused the autism, all based on the study of a single doctor who has been discredited. The niece is vegan, anti- GMO, and her father is a conspiracy theorist who regularly drinks Colloidal Silver.
I think they are all very misguided, much as I love them. My child has had every vaccine possible and more, particularly because she was low on one immunoglobin and she and I both have asthma.

 

[LinasK]

I have many reasons I could give for why I will never have a vaccination of any kind. The biggest of those reasons is simply because the pharmaceutical companies are absolutely untrustworthy. This whole debate is not about health and wellness for me or my family or for us as a species. It is simply about profits. Big Pharma wants us vaccinated for EVERYTHING. They profit off of disease. Their mandate is illness, not wellness. Not even close. I don't even read the research anymore because it has been manipulated so many times it is not even worth the effort. I respect those who wish to be vaccinated because they are only doing what they believe is best because that is what their doctor and government are telling them. My question is, who is telling the doctors and governments that vaccines are safe and effective?
Scary stuff IMO.

Of course they profit off it, that's the business they're in. They need to eat and feed their families too. I'll gladly support them and will get Every vaccine possible for me & my family so that we are safe!!! I've been exposed to TB. I had to be on a drug daily for a year. It's no picnic, but it's preferable to having TB!!! And I didn't get exposed because I didn't eat healthy, I got exposed by a patient in a nursing home who coughed on me!!!

 

[Yoda]

You can be so privileged that you’re underprivileged, so blessed with choices that you choose to be a fool, so “informed” that you’re misinformed.

Frank Bruni

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-disneyland-measles-and-madness.html?_r=0

 

[Snoods]

The good news is... California schools are starting to see kids going off exemption. Meaning, this has scared some of the parents and they have gone ahead and vaccinated their kids, even though they had an exemption to not vaccinate.

Oh brother. Personal convictions about what is right for their child go flying out the window when it starts getting real and THEIR child might get sick, eh? It was all well and good for those parents as long as they could depend on everyone else vaccinating their children and they could sit back and benefit from the herd immunity.

 

[Snoods]

BBM. Can someone tell me if this stat is true and if so, why did more than half die? Inadequate health care?
I'm wondering because I am allergic to the measles vaccine. I've never had to think about it before, but now I am wondering what the fatality percentage would be in the US. There haven't been any deaths from the Disneyland exposure has there? Tia

Yoda, I hope my post above conveyed my sympathy for someone in your position, who CAN'T get vaccinated. So many people like you depend on herd immunity for legitimate reasons. I'm sorry that you have to be worried about catching a disease that was previously eliminated in our country.

 

[SophieRose]

I have a cousin who didn't know if he had the chicken pox vaccination as a child or actually had them so took the titer test. Turned out he had not, but refuses to be vaccinated. I don't know if cp has any of the possible complications that measles have.

 

[gitana1]

BBM. Can someone tell me if this stat is true and if so, why did more than half die? Inadequate health care?
I'm wondering because I am allergic to the measles vaccine. I've never had to think about it before, but now I am wondering what the fatality percentage would be in the US. There haven't been any deaths from the Disneyland exposure has there? Tia

I just quoted from the World Health Org. on another thread that measles remains one of the leading causes of death among children globally. 145,700 people die from it annually, world wide, mostly from poor nations who lack access to the vaccine.

It is not a totally benign childhood disease as some in the anti-vaccination movement claim. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

The question you quoted was from a person who actually had measles (and would be considered to have life long immunity).

If you have not had the disease, but were vaccinated in the 60's, this information would apply to you:



source:http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_mmr.asp

Good to know. My brothers are in the 1967 and earlier category. I'm after. So I'm going to check with my doctor about mumps and tell my brothers about measles. (One has asthma).

There is nothing to discuss. Vaccines are important to the whole world as they save lives and prevent distruction from side effects of the diseases vaccines prevent.

If there was nothing to discuss we wouldn't be having measles outbreaks. Or this discussion.

You'd think something might have been learned from the smallpox vaccine, but apparently not. In the beginning, people said the same thing about that as they do about the MMR now. It made people sick there was no proof it helped, the drug companies just wanted the money, etc. It took about 30 years of hardcore vaccination efforts (around the world, not just in Western countries) and the disease was considered to be eradicated Now smallpox vaccinations aren't much of an issue... except maybe with some us us who still hate the scar it left.

The problem, IMO, is there will always be measles (and other diseases) as long as there are some people who refuse treatment/immunization so there is a host for them. On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced that it's right to risk causing health issues, up to and including death, in today's youth whose parents don't approve in order to benefit other children in the future. I survived most childhood diseases, so I only had the smallpox and polio immunizations, but I know that not everybody who contracts them will make it through (especially in good health.) I'm not sure how I feel about mandatory vaccinations.

MOO

Well, kind of. Small pox inoculations were not developed by drug companies. They were used in Turkey in the 18th century (and pfor centuries earlier) and developed in England and the US simultaneously at that time, in the 1700's. People did think it was quackery. And in fact, some people did die from it. It's become much safer now. They used to put some of the pus from a sore into a cut in a person's arm. (Gross). Now I;m sure it's not a live virus. It is not an inoculation anymore. It's a vaccine.

There is a fantastic, fantastic book about it I read called the Speckled Monster. Loved it!!!

I have many reasons I could give for why I will never have a vaccination of any kind. The biggest of those reasons is simply because the pharmaceutical companies are absolutely untrustworthy. This whole debate is not about health and wellness for me or my family or for us as a species. It is simply about profits. Big Pharma wants us vaccinated for EVERYTHING. They profit off of disease. Their mandate is illness, not wellness. Not even close. I don't even read the research anymore because it has been manipulated so many times it is not even worth the effort. I respect those who wish to be vaccinated because they are only doing what they believe is best because that is what their doctor and government are telling them. My question is, who is telling the doctors and governments that vaccines are safe and effective?
Scary stuff IMO.

I can't disregard what you've said as easily as others may.

Let me start by saying I believe in vaccines. I believe they work and are efficient at eliminating the spread of disease, and that they are good for mankind. I got my pneumonia shot, whooping couch vaccines recently and I get the yearly flu shots. (I have asthma).

I think the odds are incredible and if the lottery had odds like that we'd all be gazillionares.

That being said, I do not have blind faith in the medical field and I understand the concerns. Why?

1. It was the medical field that actually screamed against inoculations when they first were promoted.
2. It was the medical field that scoffed at the germ theory of disease.
3. It wasn't until the 1980's that the medical field acknowledged that infants feel pain. Until then, open heart surgery on babies was routinely done without anesthesia. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/24/science/infants-sense-of-pain-is-recognized-finally.html
4. Medicine prescribed dangerous sedatives like Halcion to depressives from the 50's on: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/20/us/finding-a-bad-night-s-sleep-with-halcion.html
5. Thalidomide babies.
6. Prozac class meds for kids who became suicidal.
7. Lobotomies.
8. Smoking (ok by docs for 30 years after evidence it caused lung cancer existed).

I myself had a bad experience with medicine. I have atopic dermatitis. Since infancy. My mom would often ask the doctors "Anything I should do about diet? Environment?" No no, it had nothing to do with any of that. All I needed was strong steroids that lose effectiveness over time and thin the skin. Oh and skin-drying oatmeal baths (the worst thing ever for my condition).


By the age of 21, I was covered, scalp to foot, in a rash so intense it just looked like a I had a bad sunburn. Everywhere. The steriods din;t work anymore. There were no more they could try. I was a given cortisone shots. Nothing.

That year, I moved to Spain to live with my relatives for awhile. I had received a cortisone injection a month before I left and it was still hurting. But when I called the doc to ask about it, I was told that it was muscle irritation and I should be fine.

I got to Spain. Within 2 weeks I had to have emergency surgery. I almost lost my leg from an incredible infection that they had to pump out of my body. It was gross and horrible. The doctors in Spain were livid and said that any time someone says they have pain at the injection site days or weeks later, antibiotics should be automatic.

Next stop in Spain, the regular doctor. He then sent me to a dermatologist. I was miserable. I immediately started taking off my clothes to show him my skin rash. He said, "Wait. Slow down." He started asking me where I lived, what the climate was like and what I ate.

In three days, yup, 3 days, my skin was almost totally clear. In three days the doctor there did what they weren't able to do in 21 years in the states.

I have not had an outbreak since then (and it has been over 20 years). I get my products shipped from Spain. They consist of two, simple things - a simple bath gel that doesn't strip the skin and isn't harsh yet makes my skin and even hair if I want, squeaky clean, and isn't oily at all, (and also isn't available in this country in any way, shape or form) and a mild steroidal lotion that never thins the skin or loses effectiveness and that I only use now and then when the Santa Ana winds blow and my skin starts getting itchy and threatens to cause problems.
(Medicine avail in us only as an inhaler. Not for skin.

The rest of my treatment consists of certain foods to avoid at certain times, iodine (not the bottled kind from the pharmacy, but the kind found in the air at the beach or in iodized salt I occasionally use in dry weather) and humidifiers.

I have not had a doc treat my skin in this country in over 20 years and I never will. Oh and by the way? The cost of my surgery back then? The cost of my doctor and the. dermatological visit? TOTALLY FREE. The cost of my treatment which involved hemoglobin shots and my products? Under about 30 bucks including the supplies I brought home. (It would be more today. Closer to $100.00). I ship my products here at a cost of about $250.00 per year, plus shipping.

Anyhow, people have reason not to have total faith in medicine in this country. So I cannot call people crazy or selfish for having reservations.

Again, because I anticipate getting jumped on, I believe in vaccines. Wholeheartedly. I was ranting about the flu vaccine on that thread (in favor of). And while some of the arguments anti-vacinnators use, like mercury or other additives in vaccines can cause autism (the levels are miniscule), or the Bradys joked about the measles on t.v., so there you go, are not founded in logic.

But I don't think other arguments are that illogical.

Just as I don't believe we can create as much carbon output in the world without having any effect on the planet, I also don;t believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE, for there ever to be any negative reaction to pumping a tiny body with a tiny, still developing brain and immune system, with repeated vaccinations, over and over.

By the time by cousin born in 79' went to kindergarten, he had had 6 vaccines. Six. (Including some with more than one dose, like MMR). Now, they have 46 doses or so by that age. One vaccine given at birth, to newborns, and then a "booster" a month later, is for a sexually transmitted disease (Hep. B). A disease pregnant mothers are all tested for and all fetuses treated for if the mom is found to have it. So why the heck is this necessary?

No, I am not willing to conclude that there is no way that that can have an effect on certain, susceptible people. Any parent or pet owner has witnessed at least one child or fur baby of theirs getting feverish and feeling under the weather after a vaccine. That's because it is causing a reaction in the immune system. As it is meant to.

As many have noted, the autism rate has risen in perfect step with the rise in vaccine doses. I can't say vaccines cause autism. But I do think it is possible that it may be triggered in certain susceptible children by vaccines.

There is much too much anecdotal evidence out there about regressive autism striking within a day of getting the vaccine. (There are also accounts of severe illnesses precipitating the onslaught of the condition, BTW). I believe in parental instinct. I don't think so many can be coincidence. Autism has been found to be associated with immune system issues. Vaccines routinely trigger reactions in the immune system. Is there a link?

I am not against a slower and more conservative schedule of vaccines for children. Let some parents eliminate what they likely won't have a chance of getting until puberty, until puberty! Let them spread out the vaccines. Have the MMR be three separate vaccines, not three in one. Let some delay vaccines until kindergarten. (I do think, BTW, personally, that kids in daycares are at greater risk of diseases and should vaccinate as soon as they can).

Until the medical establishment can be totally transparent and treat the concerns of a wary minority with respect rather than scorn, and until people stop calling anti-vaxxers "idiots" or "selfish", the people who are worried about the possible risks of vaccines will entrench themselves further into that position as a means of justifying what so many are criticizing.

I believe in science. But those who practice and interpret it are fallible. In fact, science is fallible. And when our medical system is so linked with profit such that doctors are paid to prescribe medications, there is a conflict of interest that we shouldn't ignore.

Finally, many of those who argue either side haven't really read the research. I have read a bit (not all). It is not as conclusive as one would think. Certainly not as those promoting vaccinations claim. There are several studies that show evidence of a link. More that don't. But some that discredit certain theories, for example the immune system overload theory I mentioned here, actually did not refer to test populations but instead referred to the theoretical manner in which a child's immune system is supposed to react.

In sum, I think vaccines are great. They work. They save lives. Taking sides and mocking the other, doesn't. In fact, it may actually be helping to kill.

 

[Yoda]

I have a cousin who didn't know if he had the chicken pox vaccination as a child or actually had them so took the titer test. Turned out he had not, but refuses to be vaccinated. I don't know if cp has any of the possible complications that measles have.

My son had the chicken pox vaccine... and the chicken pox... twice. He's weird.

 

[LinasK]

As many have noted, the autism rate has risen in perfect step with the rise in vaccine doses. I can't say vaccines cause autism. But I do think it is possible that it may be triggered in certain susceptible children by vaccines.

There is much too much anecdotal evidence out there about regressive autism striking within a day of getting the vaccine. (There are also accounts of severe illnesses precipitating the onslaught of the condition, BTW). I believe in parental instinct. I don't think so many can be coincidence. Autism has been found to be associated with immune system issues. Vaccines routinely trigger reactions in the immune system. Is there a link?

I am not against a slower and more conservative schedule of vaccines for children. Let some parents eliminate what they likely won't have a chance of getting until puberty, until puberty! Let them spread out the vaccines. Have the MMR be three separate vaccines, not three in one. Let some delay vaccines until kindergarten. (I do think, BTW, personally, that kids in daycares are at greater risk of diseases and should vaccinate as soon as they can).

Until the medical establishment can be totally transparent and treat the concerns of a wary minority with respect rather than scorn, and until people stop calling anti-vaxxers "idiots" or "selfish", the people who are worried about the possible risks of vaccines will entrench themselves further into that position as a means of justifying what so many are criticizing.

I believe in science. But those who practice and interpret it are fallible. In fact, science is fallible. And when our medical system is so linked with profit such that doctors are paid to prescribe medications, there is a conflict of interest that we shouldn't ignore.

Finally, many of those who argue either side haven't really read the research. I have read a bit (not all). It is not as conclusive as one would think. Certainly not as those promoting vaccinations claim. There are several studies that show evidence of a link. More that don't. But some that discredit certain theories, for example the immune system overload theory I mentioned here, actually did not refer to test populations but instead referred to the theoretical manner in which a child's immune system is supposed to react.

In sum, I think vaccines are great. They work. They save lives. Taking sides and mocking the other, doesn't. In fact, it may actually be helping to kill.

Both of my friends who have autistic children and are convinced it was the vaccines were older mothers. I think it was the degrading quality of their eggs that was more likely responsible for their children's autism, than the vaccines.

 

[Steft50]

Just a few thoughts. My husband contracted measles in 1960, he didn't escape unscathed. He's legally deaf in one ear due to the disease. Many talk of a rise in autism going hand in hand with a rise in vaccines even though I don't believe a single reputable study has found any link. I often point out that some autism becomes noticeable at the same age as the vaccines are given. There has also been increased knowledge, awareness and education among the medical community about the multiple spectrum's of autism that wasn't there in earlier years. These are items that I've never seen an anti-vaxer acknowledge during these kinds of discussions.

 

[gitana1]

Both of my friends who have autistic children and are convinced it was the vaccines were older mothers. I think it was the degrading quality of their eggs that was more likely responsible for their children's autism, than the vaccines.

Yes. And perhaps older moms with "degraded eggs" are creating children more susceptible to autism via triggers like repeated vaccines.


Autism seems to affect children of highly intelligent and more educated parents more often.
We can scoff at anti-vaxxers as yuppies or ignorant but interestingly, they actually tend to be more educated people who've done a ton of research: http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life...ne-Refusal-More-Prevalent-Among-the-Affluent/


It seems the very population who are affected most by autism are the same ones who distrust the vaccine.

 

[jjenny]

Yes. And perhaps older moms with "degraded eggs" are creating children more susceptible to autism via triggers like repeated vaccines.


Autism seems to affect children of highly intelligent and more educated parents more often.
We can scoff at anti-vaxxers as yuppies or ignorant but interestingly, they actually tend to be more educated people who've done a ton of research: http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life...ne-Refusal-More-Prevalent-Among-the-Affluent/


It seems the very population who are affected most by autism are the same ones who distrust the vaccine.

And so they are also going to be the population most affected by diseases such as measles.
Disease that was practically gone now is coming back. Even though nobody has shown any credible evidence that there is any connection between vaccines and autism.
And I am not amused.

 

[MyBelle]

And so they are also going to be the population most affected by diseases such as measles.
Disease that was practically gone now is coming back. Even though nobody has shown any credible evidence that there is any connection between vaccines and autism.
And I am not amused.

ITA with you and so does this mother. The idea that parents are opting out of vaccines for religious reasons is ridiculous. If they are opting out of vaccines, the likelihood they are sending their children to public school is slim to none.

The fear of measles is “a hot topic right now in all our families,” said Children’s oncology nurse Anisa Hoie.

“They’re all up in arms,” said Hoie, who wears 10 rubber bracelets, each stamped with a cancer child’s name. Sammy’s is navy blue. “Parents have to be very careful.”

Erin Nahorny was diplomatic about parents who opt out of vaccines for their children for non-medical reasons.

“I think everyone is trying to do their best,” she said. But she said she wished they would vaccinate.

“We count on everyone else,” she said, “to keep our kids safe.”

http://www.livewellnebraska.com/hea...cle_05a9836f-9f07-5780-bfe9-cffdaea98278.html

 

[CoolJ]

I just quoted from the World Health Org. on another thread that measles remains one of the leading causes of death among children globally. 145,700 people die from it annually, world wide, mostly from poor nations who lack access to the vaccine.

It is not a totally benign childhood disease as some in the anti-vaccination movement claim. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/



Good to know. My brothers are in the 1967 and earlier category. I'm after. So I'm going to check with my doctor about mumps and tell my brothers about measles. (One has asthma).



If there was nothing to discuss we wouldn't be having measles outbreaks. Or this discussion.



Well, kind of. Small pox inoculations were not developed by drug companies. They were used in Turkey in the 18th century (and pfor centuries earlier) and developed in England and the US simultaneously at that time, in the 1700's. People did think it was quackery. And in fact, some people did die from it. It's become much safer now. They used to put some of the pus from a sore into a cut in a person's arm. (Gross). Now I;m sure it's not a live virus. It is not an inoculation anymore. It's a vaccine.

There is a fantastic, fantastic book about it I read called the Speckled Monster. Loved it!!!




I can't disregard what you've said as easily as others may.

Let me start by saying I believe in vaccines. I believe they work and are efficient at eliminating the spread of disease, and that they are good for mankind. I got my pneumonia shot, whooping couch vaccines recently and I get the yearly flu shots. (I have asthma).

I think the odds are incredible and if the lottery had odds like that we'd all be gazillionares.

That being said, I do not have blind faith in the medical field and I understand the concerns. Why?

1. It was the medical field that actually screamed against inoculations when they first were promoted.
2. It was the medical field that scoffed at the germ theory of disease.
3. It wasn't until the 1980's that the medical field acknowledged that infants feel pain. Until then, open heart surgery on babies was routinely done without anesthesia. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/24/science/infants-sense-of-pain-is-recognized-finally.html
4. Medicine prescribed dangerous sedatives like Halcion to depressives from the 50's on: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/20/us/finding-a-bad-night-s-sleep-with-halcion.html
5. Thalidomide babies.
6. Prozac class meds for kids who became suicidal.
7. Lobotomies.
8. Smoking (ok by docs for 30 years after evidence it caused lung cancer existed).

I myself had a bad experience with medicine. I have atopic dermatitis. Since infancy. My mom would often ask the doctors "Anything I should do about diet? Environment?" No no, it had nothing to do with any of that. All I needed was strong steroids that lose effectiveness over time and thin the skin. Oh and skin-drying oatmeal baths (the worst thing ever for my condition).


By the age of 21, I was covered, scalp to foot, in a rash so intense it just looked like a I had a bad sunburn. Everywhere. The steriods din;t work anymore. There were no more they could try. I was a given cortisone shots. Nothing.

That year, I moved to Spain to live with my relatives for awhile. I had received a cortisone injection a month before I left and it was still hurting. But when I called the doc to ask about it, I was told that it was muscle irritation and I should be fine.

I got to Spain. Within 2 weeks I had to have emergency surgery. I almost lost my leg from an incredible infection that they had to pump out of my body. It was gross and horrible. The doctors in Spain were livid and said that any time someone says they have pain at the injection site days or weeks later, antibiotics should be automatic.

Next stop in Spain, the regular doctor. He then sent me to a dermatologist. I was miserable. I immediately started taking off my clothes to show him my skin rash. He said, "Wait. Slow down." He started asking me where I lived, what the climate was like and what I ate.

In three days, yup, 3 days, my skin was almost totally clear. In three days the doctor there did what they weren't able to do in 21 years in the states.

I have not had an outbreak since then (and it has been over 20 years). I get my products shipped from Spain. They consist of two, simple things - a simple bath gel that doesn't strip the skin and isn't harsh yet makes my skin and even hair if I want, squeaky clean, and isn't oily at all, (and also isn't available in this country in any way, shape or form) and a mild steroidal lotion that never thins the skin or loses effectiveness and that I only use now and then when the Santa Ana winds blow and my skin starts getting itchy and threatens to cause problems.
(Medicine avail in us only as an inhaler. Not for skin.

The rest of my treatment consists of certain foods to avoid at certain times, iodine (not the bottled kind from the pharmacy, but the kind found in the air at the beach or in iodized salt I occasionally use in dry weather) and humidifiers.

I have not had a doc treat my skin in this country in over 20 years and I never will. Oh and by the way? The cost of my surgery back then? The cost of my doctor and the. dermatological visit? TOTALLY FREE. The cost of my treatment which involved hemoglobin shots and my products? Under about 30 bucks including the supplies I brought home. (It would be more today. Closer to $100.00). I ship my products here at a cost of about $250.00 per year, plus shipping.

Anyhow, people have reason not to have total faith in medicine in this country. So I cannot call people crazy or selfish for having reservations.

Again, because I anticipate getting jumped on, I believe in vaccines. Wholeheartedly. I was ranting about the flu vaccine on that thread (in favor of). And while some of the arguments anti-vacinnators use, like mercury or other additives in vaccines can cause autism (the levels are miniscule), or the Bradys joked about the measles on t.v., so there you go, are not founded in logic.

But I don't think other arguments are that illogical.

Just as I don't believe we can create as much carbon output in the world without having any effect on the planet, I also don;t believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE, for there ever to be any negative reaction to pumping a tiny body with a tiny, still developing brain and immune system, with repeated vaccinations, over and over.

By the time by cousin born in 79' went to kindergarten, he had had 6 vaccines. Six. (Including some with more than one dose, like MMR). Now, they have 46 doses or so by that age. One vaccine given at birth, to newborns, and then a "booster" a month later, is for a sexually transmitted disease (Hep. B). A disease pregnant mothers are all tested for and all fetuses treated for if the mom is found to have it. So why the heck is this necessary?

No, I am not willing to conclude that there is no way that that can have an effect on certain, susceptible people. Any parent or pet owner has witnessed at least one child or fur baby of theirs getting feverish and feeling under the weather after a vaccine. That's because it is causing a reaction in the immune system. As it is meant to.

As many have noted, the autism rate has risen in perfect step with the rise in vaccine doses. I can't say vaccines cause autism. But I do think it is possible that it may be triggered in certain susceptible children by vaccines.

There is much too much anecdotal evidence out there about regressive autism striking within a day of getting the vaccine. (There are also accounts of severe illnesses precipitating the onslaught of the condition, BTW). I believe in parental instinct. I don't think so many can be coincidence. Autism has been found to be associated with immune system issues. Vaccines routinely trigger reactions in the immune system. Is there a link?

I am not against a slower and more conservative schedule of vaccines for children. Let some parents eliminate what they likely won't have a chance of getting until puberty, until puberty! Let them spread out the vaccines. Have the MMR be three separate vaccines, not three in one. Let some delay vaccines until kindergarten. (I do think, BTW, personally, that kids in daycares are at greater risk of diseases and should vaccinate as soon as they can).

Until the medical establishment can be totally transparent and treat the concerns of a wary minority with respect rather than scorn, and until people stop calling anti-vaxxers "idiots" or "selfish", the people who are worried about the possible risks of vaccines will entrench themselves further into that position as a means of justifying what so many are criticizing.

I believe in science. But those who practice and interpret it are fallible. In fact, science is fallible. And when our medical system is so linked with profit such that doctors are paid to prescribe medications, there is a conflict of interest that we shouldn't ignore.

Finally, many of those who argue either side haven't really read the research. I have read a bit (not all). It is not as conclusive as one would think. Certainly not as those promoting vaccinations claim. There are several studies that show evidence of a link. More that don't. But some that discredit certain theories, for example the immune system overload theory I mentioned here, actually did not refer to test populations but instead referred to the theoretical manner in which a child's immune system is supposed to react.

In sum, I think vaccines are great. They work. They save lives. Taking sides and mocking the other, doesn't. In fact, it may actually be helping to kill.

Thank you for this story/comment gitana1. I enjoyed reading it. The truth is most of my bias against vaccines is not against the vaccines themselves but against Big Pharma. I used to read a lot of the research, but as evidenced by recent scandals by Merck, Pfizer, Glaxo etc.. The research doesn't mean a thing because it is manipulated if not outright fabricated by these companies. They have all been sued(and lost or settled) or been brought up on criminal charges because of those very reasons.
Do the vaccines work? I am guessing many of them probably do "work".
But at what cost? What are we letting these criminal organizations inject into our bodies. They have the FDA in their pockets, so we know The FDA isn't protecting us. They have the doctors in their pockets, so you have to look far and wide to find a doctor who knows the truth. They have more lobbyists in their pockets than any other industry on the planet, so we know the government isn't going to protect us.
I mean, because of a couple of heroic whistleblowers, we know the NSA has been spying on us for years illegally. Do we really think the pharmaceutical industry is only thinking about the health of the population?

Have you heard of Vioxx? If not, look it up.
Have you heard of the Hormone Replacement Therapy farce? If not, look it up
How about not too long ago when it was guaranteed OxyContin was not addictive. Yes this is what was being told to the doctors prescribing it.
How about Avandia? Have you heard about what happened there? If not, look it up.

I could go on and on and on. But I know most of you are not ready to hear it. But these are just a handful of the examples telling us that Big Pharma is as corrupt an industry as there is. I am not speaking of mistakes or oversights here. These are outright lies and manipulations that these companies purposefully executed for the sole purpose of making more money(actually there may be other purposes, but not getting into that here). Western Medicine and health care are a farce. Excellent for many acute conditions and traumatic injuries, but completely lost when it comes to health, wellness and life long vitality.

Please, start researching it yourselves. This is important stuff.

 

[oh_gal]

I'm all for people having rights. But when your rights could pose a risk to the health of my child, that's another story. Now, if you're going to not protect your children and you want to stay away from the general population, I'm fine with that.

 

[oh_gal]

Thank you for this story/comment gitana1. I enjoyed reading it. The truth is most of my bias against vaccines is not against the vaccines themselves but against Big Pharma. I used to read a lot of the research, but as evidenced by recent scandals by Merck, Pfizer, Glaxo etc.. The research doesn't mean a thing because it is manipulated if not outright fabricated by these companies. They have all been sued(and lost or settled) or been brought up on criminal charges because of those very reasons.
Do the vaccines work? I am guessing many of them probably do "work".
But at what cost? What are we letting these criminal organizations inject into our bodies. They have the FDA in their pockets, so we know The FDA isn't protecting us. They have the doctors in their pockets, so you have to look far and wide to find a doctor who knows the truth. They have more lobbyists in their pockets than any other industry on the planet, so we know the government isn't going to protect us.
I mean, because of a couple of heroic whistleblowers, we know the NSA has been spying on us for years illegally. Do we really think the pharmaceutical industry is only thinking about the health of the population?

Have you heard of Vioxx? If not, look it up.
Have you heard of the Hormone Replacement Therapy farce? If not, look it up
How about not too long ago when it was guaranteed OxyContin was not addictive. Yes this is what was being told to the doctors prescribing it.
How about Avandia? Have you heard about what happened there? If not, look it up.

I could go on and on and on. But I know most of you are not ready to hear it. But these are just a handful of the examples telling us that Big Pharma is as corrupt an industry as there is. I am not speaking of mistakes or oversights here. These are outright lies and manipulations that these companies purposefully executed for the sole purpose of making more money(actually there may be other purposes, but not getting into that here). Western Medicine and health care are a farce. Excellent for many acute conditions and traumatic injuries, but completely lost when it comes to health, wellness and life long vitality.

Please, start researching it yourselves. This is important stuff.

(above, bbm)
Couldn't agree with you more -- do your due diligence, and research things on your own. Long ago (before all the hoopla over HRT), I said, "Wait....you want me to take artificial hormones?!"

Don't be blind sheep.

On the other hand, vaccines that have decades of solid track records to protect against illnesses that wiped out the masses before....again, use your head.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I'm a real old-timer when it comes to vaccines. I had the smallpox vaccine and was fortunate not to have the big, circular scar on my arm as did my sister.

I had all the normal "baby vaccinations" that were available in the late 40's and early 50's.

I was a Polio Pioneer and took part in the trials in the second grade. I had to re-do all those shots later on since I was in the placebo group.

I had the chicken pox at age 5, an unlucky birthday gift and was very ill for a long time. I have a couple of scars from that.

At 18, I got the measles. That was one of the worst times of my life. I was in terrible pain and couldn't eat for a week. I had to stay in a dark room with my eyes covered. My grandmother had gone blind when she had the measles. Her vision returned after about 5 years, and very poor vision at that.

In my early 60's I had a terrible bout of the shingles. For days, I had severe pain that felt like a saber had pierced through my body. Once the rash appeared on my back, my husband recognized it as the shingles and I ran to the doctor for Valtrex within the 48 hour time period after the rash appears. From then on, it got no worse, but recovery took weeks. The moment the new vaccine was available to people my age, I got it. Since then, no more shingles.

IMO, if parents of young children don't want their children vaccinated, they need to read all sides of the controversy and decide for themselves when to have their children vaccinated. But, the downside clearly is that, if they don't, they are playing with their children's lives. To avoid their children catching these illnesses, they should take on the responsibility of keeping their children isolated.

JMHO based on my life experiences.

 

[K_Z]

Have you heard of Vioxx? If not, look it up.
Have you heard of the Hormone Replacement Therapy farce? If not, look it up
How about not too long ago when it was guaranteed OxyContin was not addictive. Yes this is what was being told to the doctors prescribing it.
How about Avandia? Have you heard about what happened there? If not, look it up.

Snipped for focus.

No one ever died from "not" taking Vioxx, HRT, oxycontin, or Avandia. And no "bystanders" around the people who DIDN'T take Vioxx, HRT, oxycontin, and Avandia ever got sick or died.

Vaccines simply cannot be compared to Vioxx, oxycontin, HRT, or Avandia. I wouldn't even call them an airbag, as someone did upthread, because that implies that they are an antidote. Vaccines, especially MMR, absolutely prevent disease. It's not a theory or a conspiracy, or a get rich quick scheme.

Communicable diseases aren't just some scary bedtime story from the olden days, that doesn't affect modern, educated, "Starbucks carrying", God-fearing activists in rich nations." Diseases don't care if you drink Starbucks in a rich nation, or pray on your knees in the squalor of a third world nation. If the person is susceptible, the disease infects and sickens, and spreads itself.

I personally believe that anyone in a rich nation like the U.S. who does not immunize themselves or their children is profoundly irresponsible and negligent, and I won't apologize for that. Epidemiologists won't, either. They are frustrated and alarmed at what is going on with "anti-vaxers", who are single handedly reversing more than 50 years of progress in the area of measles eradication-- in only 10-15 years. THAT's what is important to every person on earth.

And again, if we confine the conversation only to the MMR vaccine, with over 50 YEARS of safety and 99%+ effectiveness, there is simply no valid medical reason for healthy people to refuse vaccination for themselves or their children. And the rest is simply ignorant paranoia, or magical thinking and supersition, IMO. It is no different than my earlier comparison about virgin cleansing.

No one here has responded to my earlier question. What do people think about practicing medical professionals refusing to vaccinate themselves or their children? Is that their "right"? How about police and firefighters? The military? Politicians?

Should we insist that these public servants immunize themselves and their families, so as not to spread disease to sick people and immunologically vulnerable people? While upholding the "rights" of others to spread disease and put themselves and others at risk?

Should we stop requiring sick people with communicable diseases and exposures to be quarantined, because we are infringing on their "rights" to move freely in society?

Should we stop tracking down sex partners of people diagnosed with STDs, because the infected carrier has "rights" to privacy and "rights" to have sex with and infect whomever they wish?

Why is it "okay" to pretend to tolerate the irresponsible and negligent decisions of "anti-vaxers", when we don't tolerate the above situations? Just imagine for a minute a handful of unvaccinated health care workers and a measles outbreak. Is there ANYONE who thinks that is perfectly okay, or that that health care worker has a "right" to refuse vaccination and spread disease to their patients? We're not talking about something like refusing vioxx, HRT, or birth control medications. We're talking about intentionally encouraging widespread communicable disease, and pretending that it's some kind of politically correct conversation. It's foolish and ignorant.

I have personally seen widespread outbreaks of communicable diseases in third world countries. I have seen people in developing nations walk days, and dozens of miles, to line up outside clinics to get immunizations for themselves and their kids. If these people knew that there are people in "rich nations" INTENTIONALLY refusing vaccines and spreading previously eradicated diseases because of some ridiculous and misguided ideas about religion and "rights", they'd be horrified to the core of their souls, and on their knees in the dirt praying to God that these people would change their minds and stop the spread of disease on earth. As we all should be, IMO.

All this "political correctness" is going to continue to sicken and even kill some people, and create lifelong complications for others, like mental disability, deafness, etc.

IMO, a person's "rights" stop being "rights" when the exercise of those rights harm, or have the potential to kill, vulnerable other people. That's when that "right" becomes profoundly socially irresponsible, IMO.

I'm going to post this again, in case any missed it above.

http://www.academia.edu/2344148/Fre...vaccinators_be_penalized_for_the_harm_they_do