*MERGED THREADS*GUILTY or NOT GUILTY? (Florida jury instructions added)

[Nali87]

Anyone want to change their vote after the wonderful judge Perry explained what premeditation actually is? More than one single act - time to reflect. Aggravated child abuse - Felony murder. Lock her up for life.

 

[marspiter]

I'm not arguing that her actions after the fact don't show a consciousness of guilt, just that thinking she felt responsible Caylee's death doesn't mean that the death was a result of a criminal act vs. a negligent one, which is the difference between manslaughter and murder. Yes, I understand the felony murder rule, and I don't discount the fact that her death could have been the result of aggravated child abuse, but at this point I don't think I could say, based on the case so far, that I understand the circumstances surrounding Caylee's death well enough to say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I believe it was caused by a criminal act (willful murder or ACA). I realize that's not a popular opinion, and that it's extremely frustrating to a lot of people, but that's my opinion.

The state is not require to prove motive, cause of death, and other various circumstances as to Caylee's demise. It helps strengthen a case but is not required.

So from your posts I understand you believe this to be negligence that resulted in Caylee's demise. Perhaps I'm wrong on that assumption. If that is your belief however then what evidence in your mind shows manslaughter do to negligence based on the evidence thus far?

 

[MissJames]

I've worked in ER's and in EMS for over 15 years, and I've learned never to say never when talking about how people react to traumatic things. MOO

In my experience there is a physical component to reacting to traumatic events.It's uncontrollable. Shock,shaking,irregular breathing ,for some,crying. Have you ever seen anyone behave as though nothing had happened? Is that physically possible,in your opinion. The death of your daughter,unexpected,she was supposedly loved and adored.......no reaction?
I have a husband and 7 kids. When my son died,unexpectedly,I could not control the physical things happening to me. Nor could my husband or my other children. My generally,unemotional Father in law,a doctor, was wailing! Neighbors showed up,shaking ,trembling,crying.Many had never met James.It was the shock.A child had died!
So I'm not buying the ugly coping.People are different,but not THAT different.

 

[MissJames]

Anyone want to change their vote after the wonderful judge Perry explained what premeditation actually is? More than one single act - time to reflect. Aggravated child abuse - Felony murder. Lock her up for life.

I :heartbeat: you!

 

[Z-sleuth]

Guilty of Murder One. I think CA and GA will whine it down to LWOP.

 

[GeekyGirl]

What would you need to see to give you enough evidence to say she is guilty? How much more? What's missing for you?

Just to clarify, I've never said I didn't think she was culpable in Caylee's death, and I would certainly argue that the state has made an excellent case for manslaughter. I'm not sure the state, through no fault of their own, has enough evidence to support that her death was the result of criminal act, for me at least, so now it's up to the defense to put on evidence that will either strengthen or destroy any reasonable doubt that I have. Does that make sense? I'm really just trying to be objective here, because if I were a juror faced with the onus of deciding in this case, I would want to make sure that my decision was rooted in the evidence and not based on emotional outrage (which is certainly warranted in this case). As distasteful as I find it, our legal system makes it clear that Casey is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law, and if she truly isn't guilty of murder, as defined by the statutes, she shouldn't be convicted of it. That's not to say I don't find her an utterly despicable human being, I do, but cases like these are a true test of our legal system and I'm very wary of perverting the system based on my emotions. Again, these are only my opinions, and I mean no disrespect towards anyone else here. I'm truly in awe of the time and energy many of you have invested in this case. It's a true testament to the goodness that exists in this world and a reminder why tragedies such as this are the exception and not the norm.

 

[GeekyGirl]

In my experience there is a physical component to reacting to traumatic events.It's uncontrollable. Shock,shaking,irregular breathing ,for some,crying. Have you ever seen anyone behave as though nothing had happened? Is that physically possible,in your opinion. The death of your daughter,unexpected,she was supposedly loved and adored.......no reaction?
I have a husband and 7 kids. When my son died,unexpectedly,I could not control the physical things happening to me. Nor could my husband or my other children. My generally,unemotional Father in law,a doctor, was wailing! Neighbors showed up,shaking ,trembling,crying.Many had never met James.It was the shock.A child had died!
So I'm not buying the ugly coping.People are different,but not THAT different.

I've seen all kinds of reactions ranging from the intensely physical like you described, to absolute and complete denial. I've had a mother once who walked out of the room after viewing her child's body and calmly asked if the hospital was still going to bill her since we failed to resuscitate her son (and no, she wasn't responsible for the death of her child) I also had a mother who was later proven guilty of intentionally smothering her child who had one of the most extreme panic reactions I've ever seen. I'm not a psychology expert so I can't explain it, I just know what I've experienced and some people just shut down.

 

[MissJames]

Just to clarify, I've never said I didn't think she was culpable in Caylee's death, and I would certainly argue that the state has made an excellent case for manslaughter. I'm not sure the state, through no fault of their own, has enough evidence to support that her death was the result of criminal act, for me at least, so now it's up to the defense to put on evidence that will either strengthen or destroy any reasonable doubt that I have. Does that make sense? I'm really just trying to be objective here, because if I were a juror faced with the onus of deciding in this case, I would want to make sure that my decision was rooted in the evidence and not based on emotional outrage (which is certainly warranted in this case). As distasteful as I find it, our legal system makes it clear that Casey is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law, and if she truly isn't guilty of murder, as defined by the statutes, she shouldn't be convicted of it. That's not to say I don't find her an utterly despicable human being, I do, but cases like these are a true test of our legal system and I'm very wary of perverting the system based on my emotions. Again, these are only my opinions, and I mean no disrespect towards anyone else here. I'm truly in awe of the time and energy many of you have invested in this case. It's a true testament to the goodness that exists in this world and a reminder why tragedies such as this are the exception and not the norm.

Maybe I don't understand ,LOL. If the DT does not put up a good defense,would you then find her guilty? Or do you just think there's not enough for a guilty?
Please don't take this as not respecting your opinion.I do.I find it educational,because I can't see what you are seeing.

 

[GeekyGirl]

The state is not require to prove motive, cause of death, and other various circumstances as to Caylee's demise. It helps strengthen a case but is not required.

So from your posts I understand you believe this to be negligence that resulted in Caylee's demise. Perhaps I'm wrong on that assumption. If that is your belief however then what evidence in your mind shows manslaughter do to negligence based on the evidence thus far?

Again, I never said they were. There are plenty of cases where specific COD was not determined, or even a body found, but in general, those cases have large amounts of circumstantial evidence that largely and overwhelmingly point to ONE theory of the death being a criminal act, and I don't find that to be the case here. There are lots of pieces that point to things that could have happened, mainly duct tape only, chloroform plus duct tape, but even the state doesn't seem a single theory of the crime. It IS required that they convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the death resulted from a criminal act (willfully intent or ACA) to prove murder in the first. They only have to prove that she was somehow responsible for her death to prove manslaughter. I'm not talking about my personal beliefs based on everything I've read online, but whether I think the prosecution has, as of yet, met the legal burden of proof for a charge of murder, and I don't. No disrespect to your opinion, but that's mine.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Maybe I don't understand ,LOL. If the DT does not put up a good defense,would you then find her guilty? Or do you just think there's not enough for a guilty?
Please don't take this as not respecting your opinion.I do.I find it educational,because I can't see what you are seeing.

No worries Maybe a better way to say it is that for me, based only on the trial, the pieces don't fit yet. I can't look at everything the state has put forward and go "aha, yes, I see where that makes the most sense as to how it happened." I understand we can't know for sure, and that it's just a bizarre case to begin with, but if I were a juror, I think I'd still be scratching my head a little. So if the defense comes forward with a explanation that is at least plausible as to the death being an accident, I think I'd be able to vote manslaughter not murder, but if they start throwing out insane SODDI theories or the like, I'd probably agree that the state's theory, while not exactly cohesive, it at least the most probable explanation, and vote murder. Again, not based on my feeling as a person who's been exposed to more than the jury has, but how I think I'd feel if the trial was the ONLY evidence I had to consider.

 

[MissJames]

No worries Maybe a better way to say it is that for me, based only on the trial, the pieces don't fit yet. I can't look at everything the state has put forward and go "aha, yes, I see where that makes the most sense as to how it happened." I understand we can't know for sure, and that it's just a bizarre case to begin with, but if I were a juror, I think I'd still be scratching my head a little. So if the defense comes forward with a explanation that is at least plausible as to the death being an accident, I think I'd be able to vote manslaughter not murder, but if they start throwing out insane SODDI theories or the like, I'd probably agree that the state's theory, while not exactly cohesive, it at least the most probable explanation, and vote murder. Again, not based on my feeling as a person who's been exposed to more than the jury has, but how I think I'd feel if the trial was the ONLY evidence I had to consider.

Gotcha! And thanks for being so patient!

 

[GeekyGirl]

Gotcha! And thanks for being so patient!

You're welcome, and thank you very much for being patient with me. It's a tough, tough case emotionally, so I appreciate the willingness to discuss our differences of opinion calmly and rationally.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Miss James, I meant to say earlier that I'm really very sorry for the loss of your son. Thank you for sharing what I'm sure are still very painful memories of how you reacted when he died.

 

[Peachy Keen]

I agree with the other posters who said that if Baez had stopped at drowning, and not included the ludicrous accusations against GA and RK, the jury may have doubt.

However, looking at the 31 days, the partying, the lying, the narcissistic jailhouse videos and phone calls, the trunk evidence, the duct tape, etc., there is no way that I believe that she is not responsible for Caylee's death. There is too much evidence pointing at a coverup of Caylee's death. (I will never believe that GA would not seek help for Caylee if she drowned.)

With all we have seen of ICA's behavior, I feel that ICA was NEVER afraid of her parents.
If it was an accident, she would have milked the sympathy for all it was worth. There would have been no need for all the lies and not reporting an accident.

I am not convinced that the state has proved premeditated murder. The duct tape COULD have been an attempt to look like a kidnapping. That is why I voted guilty of first degree murder. I think the death occurred as a result of abuse, and she will get LWOP.

FWIW, my husband didn't know a whole lot about the case before the trial, but after watching it, he is convinced it was a premeditated murder and that she deserves the DP.

MOO

 

[iluvmua]

I'm SO glad Judge Perry gets to decide her fate.... I love that he's Pro DP.
(Hopefully that is what she will get)

 

[eleni777]

I agree with the other posters who said that if Baez had stopped at drowning, and not included the ludicrous accusations against GA and RK, the jury may have doubt.

However, looking at the 31 days, the partying, the lying, the narcissistic jailhouse videos and phone calls, the trunk evidence, the duct tape, etc., there is no way that I believe that she is not responsible for Caylee's death. There is too much evidence pointing at a coverup of Caylee's death. (I will never believe that GA would not seek help for Caylee if she drowned.)

With all we have seen of ICA's behavior, I feel that ICA was NEVER afraid of her parents.
If it was an accident, she would have milked the sympathy for all it was worth. There would have been no need for all the lies and not reporting an accident.

I am not convinced that the state has proved premeditated murder. The duct tape COULD have been an attempt to look like a kidnapping. That is why I voted guilty of first degree murder. I think the death occurred as a result of abuse, and she will get LWOP.

FWIW, my husband didn't know a whole lot about the case before the trial, but after watching it, he is convinced it was a premeditated murder and that she deserves the DP.

MOO

BBM...the thing is Cindy has been calling Casey an unfit mother to her face and threatening to take Caylee away from her. I doubt if it was an accident Cindy would be all rainbows and roses afterwards. Publically she would act like it wasn't Casey's fault but behind closed doors, I can totally see how Cindy would torment Casey with the "accident". Throw it in Casey's face at every opportunity to further solidify her arguement and emotionally manipulate Casey with "you were an unfit good for nothing mother", so I can see Casey going for an elaborate cover up instead of coming clean.

 

[Peachy Keen]

BBM...the thing is Cindy has been calling Casey an unfit mother to her face and threatening to take Caylee away from her. I doubt if it was an accident Cindy would be all rainbows and roses afterwards. Publically she would act like it wasn't Casey's fault but behind closed doors, I can totally see how Cindy would torment Casey with the "accident". Throw it in Casey's face at every opportunity to further solidify her arguement and emotionally manipulate Casey with "you were an unfit good for nothing mother", so I can see Casey going for an elaborate cover up instead of coming clean.

I see what you are saying. However, I do not think Casey would sit in jail for almost 3 years for an accident. She would have turned it into "poor me" and made Cindy feel guilty for ever blaming her.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I see what you are saying. However, I do not think Casey would sit in jail for almost 3 years for an accident. She would have turned it into "poor me" and made Cindy feel guilty for ever blaming her.

Once she was charged with murder, coming forward with the truth, if it was an accident, wouldn't have helped her. It's not like they would have just said "oh, we see now, you never meant to hurt her" and let her out. If her trial had occurred before Caylee's body had been found, she very well might have walked away from all of this without any real consequences. I truly believe, even now, she thinks she has good chance of getting off without a conviction. Why cop to an accident and face possible charges, when there's a chance she could be let off? MOO

 

[cuppy199]

I have read through this thread and even though I dont see eye to eye on some of the comments I respect each and everyones opinion. I personally have follow many cases over the years and have not come across one quite like this one. For the DT to imply that this was a accident that was covered up is beyond smelly to me. The only reason anyone would cover up an accident is if infact they know it could be proven otherwise. Malory had stated that Casey was an awesome mother which tells me Miss Anthony was more then capable of showing love and concern in front of others.Which in fact shows that she is also capable of showing emotion after her child had died. Not only did she not show emotion she partied and carried on with her life like Caylee never existed. On top of that she threw her child away like she was trash.Let not forget that if it weren't for Cindy calling 911 that no one would have ever known Caylee was missing.Even if we were to believe that Caylee died of an overdoes of Chloroform that is not or never will be considered an accident. Miss Anthony led everyone to believe Caylee was missing which would give the body and evidence which proved anything other then an accident to dissapear do to the elements. The stories and lies Casey told over her life time show she is very clever on how to spin a tale.All of Casey action those 31 days doesnt smell accident or that she was a victum. The only victum in this case is a sweet baby girl that was taken way to young. IMO the state showed enough of the evidence to prove that Miss Anthony is guilty of murder in the first degree.

 

[Nali87]

I :heartbeat: you!