MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

[Ruminations]

December 9, Protocols for our Safe Reopening

* law enforcement and private security on-site
* internet filter software
* staff trauma-response training
* therapy dogs
* professionally trained trauma specialists
* no backpacks allowed

How are any of these after-the-fact measures going to PREVENT the next mass school shooting?! They're just tired, ever more depressing salves. How is a ban on backpacks for a week or two gonna stop anything? LOL It's WINTER and a gun can be hidden easily in jackets and coats.

<modsnip>

Have a large indoor room where the students leave their outerwear and maybe their opaque backpacks. Have a resource officer protect their things, and a cute Shepard to sniff around for guns.

I don’t think locking down schools in general for the long haul is a better societal solution than < self snip. [pig Latin didn’t work.]>

I don’t think it is better in the long haul than more staff, more pets, better protocols and training to separate when discipline vs. help vs. individualized programs are appropriate in school. I don’t think it can replace more Federal funding so districts are not rewarded by property tax activists for cutting services they prefer to provide to their children privately. I don’t think locking down schools can replace having medical care, including mental health care available and attainable.

In the long haul, it is traumatizing to feel like you are entering a minimum security prison when you are going to school, or like criminal that has to be searched for weapons.

But locking down, metal detectors, etc. Can sure help when there is a known threat or fear or recent school weapon related crime.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Not “normal” but necessary because kids are armed and angry.

( Not disagreeing with you, everybodhi, just jumping off of your post!)

This problem isn't unique to America. Every popluation across the world has it's share of angry or dangerous human beings. The teen years are when much of this begins to rear it's ugly head. People kill with guns, knives, machetes, bats, bombs, or burning people alive.

Any teenager who wants to kill a bunch of people can find a way to do it. Adults who provide a lethal weapon, whether it be a gun, brass knuckles or or a sword to a troubled child and encourage them to "learn not to get caught" are not helping!

 

[JayWill]

( Not disagreeing with you, everybodhi, just jumping off of your post!)

This problem isn't unique to America. Every popluation across the world has it's share of angry or dangerous human beings. The teen years are when much of this begins to rear it's ugly head. People kill with guns, knives, machetes, bats, bombs, or burning people alive.

Any teenager who wants to kill a bunch of people can find a way to do it. Adults who provide a lethal weapon, whether it be a gun, brass knuckles or or a sword to a troubled child and encourage them to "learn not to get caught" are not helping!

BBM. But this happens rarely in other countries.

 

[TGIRecovered]

BBM. But this happens rarely in other countries.

Where are you getting that information? Do you have an msm source that reports accurate information from all other countries?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

K-12 Alliance of Michigan objects to Fieger’s civil lawsuit against Oxford schools, staff (clickondetroit.com)

Civil lawsuits have already been filed with expectations of more to follow

Attorney Geoffrey Fieger was the first to file two $100 million lawsuits Thursday on behalf of one Oxford High School shooting survivor and her family -- but some educational leaders are taking issue with the litigation.

K-12 Alliance of Michigan, one of the largest educational organizations in the state, believes that Fieger’s lawsuit is a money grab and not a long-term solution to address school shootings...

 

[Arkay]

Have a large indoor room where the students leave their outerwear and maybe their opaque backpacks. Have a resource officer protect their things, and a cute Shepard to sniff around for guns.

All these are good ideas, but a determined killer could shoot everyone up in that room, if he/she has a gun in a coat pocket or in a pants waistband, before the dogs sniff it out. I don't think you mean opaque bookbags, though---did you mean to say transparent?

My granddaughter's high school is in a very nice residential neighborhood in NYC. They do have a metal detector, one each for two entrances. The kids do hate it, because it does take awhile and they are lined up in the cold mornings waiting their turn. There are over 5000 students in the school, so you can imagine. School security runs it.

I'm actually very happy about it, but I'm always hyper-aware that someone could just shoot at the lineup.

Also, around here the kids must have their bookbags with them all day, and usually their coats, too. We have a lot of century old schools around here, the kids have to walk up and down five flights, and there are no lockers.


It's so much better if a troubled child can get intervention early. Someone determined to create mayhem will find the opportunity.

JMO.

 

[kaen]

Have a large indoor room where the students leave their outerwear and maybe their opaque backpacks. Have a resource officer protect their things, and a cute Shepard to sniff around for guns.

I don’t think locking down schools in general for the long haul is a better societal solution than < self snip. [pig Latin didn’t work.]>

I don’t think it is better in the long haul than more staff, more pets, better protocols and training to separate when discipline vs. help vs. individualized programs are appropriate in school. I don’t think it can replace more Federal funding so districts are not rewarded by property tax activists for cutting services they prefer to provide to their children privately. I don’t think locking down schools can replace having medical care, including mental health care available and attainable.

In the long haul, it is traumatizing to feel like you are entering a minimum security prison when you are going to school, or like criminal that has to be searched for weapons.

But locking down, metal detectors, etc. Can sure help when there is a known threat or fear or recent school weapon related crime.

No one likes to go through security to go to school, go on trips through an airport or go into a municipal building. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on your perspective) we live in turbulent times with people who should not have access to weapons do and more gaining access everyday to small as well as automatic weapons. As I wrote earlier, I worked in schools with metal detectors. It is not as scary as one would think. There are tens of thousands of students who do it everyday--just like there are millions of people who do it at the airport daily. I would love to have an idyllic setting in my school but it just isn't the case. And, truthfully, it is more stressful to be wondering if the next argument or conflict is going to be violent with weapons rather than to go through the detectors and have my bag go through the machine each day. I find the active shooter drills that happen unannounced much more disconcerting. In the beginning, I was jolted by all of these measures--the detectors, scanning machines and active shooter drill--- but now it is more second nature and I am much more ill at ease in school environments where there is seemingly no security. Having been in a school that was affected by the occurrences at Sandy Hook, I am all for whatever it takes and helping students manage the stress rather than ever having to endure the terror of a school shooting. This is why I have been so hard on this school's administration. It is one thing to be caught off guard because a student has figured out a way around your measures but it is another to not have commonly known and tested measures in place. These folks had 45 minutes before these parents arrived on scene----- the lives of these students could have been saved.

 

[MoeInVA]

No one likes to go through security to go to school, go on trips through an airport or go into a municipal building. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on your perspective) we live in turbulent times with people who should not have access to weapons do and more gaining access everyday to small as well as automatic weapons. As I wrote earlier, I worked in schools with metal detectors. It is not as scary as one would think. There are tens of thousands of students who do it everyday--just like there are millions of people who do it at the airport daily. I would love to have an idyllic setting in my school but it just isn't the case. And, truthfully, it is more stressful to be wondering if the next argument or conflict is going to be violent with weapons rather than to go through the detectors and have my bag go through the machine each day. I find the active shooter drills that happen unannounced much more disconcerting. In the beginning, I was jolted by all of these measures--the detectors, scanning machines and active shooter drill--- but now it is more second nature and I am much more ill at ease in school environments where there is seemingly no security. Having been in a school that was affected by the occurrences at Sandy Hook, I am all for whatever it takes and helping students manage the stress rather than ever having to endure the terror of a school shooting. This is why I have been so hard on this school's administration. It is one thing to be caught off guard because a student has figured out a way around your measures but it is another to not have commonly known and tested measures in place. These folks had 45 minutes before these parents arrived on scene----- the lives of these students could have been saved.

I agree. I worked in a high security workplace for years. Every time we entered we had to walk through metal detectors and the separate x rays for our bags, trays for phones. It becomes commonplace very quickly when you do it every day. At least once a day. It is worth it for the security and peace of mind it provides.

Especially since there doesn’t seem to be the political will to reduce the supply in the U.S., we are left with detection.

 

[MrsWatson]

My son went to Ben Davis HS in Indy, about 3000 students. He took the bus in the morning and the buses would pull up to the doors with metal detectors, let the kids out, thru the detector, manned by resource officers, then off to the caff for free breakfast for all students. They had another separate door for students who walked, which were few, because of the location. It went fast but it was routine and he didn't hate it because he got a second breakfast.

Someone (forgive me, I've forgotten who) priced the metal detectors. Not a huge amount, at all. If the district can't afford them, there must be a way to ask for federal money or grants. Most districts could hold a bake sale or a craft sale and come up with it.

It just seems like it would be an easy preventative measure for schools. A gimme.

All MOO.

 

[rob525]

People want to kill them not pay them. Probably will stay in isolation for heir own safety. They wouldn't be safe out of jail. I believe them when they said they fled for their safety, meaning they were getting threats.

Opinion

I don't believe them. Maybe fear for their safety was a small part. I think the primary reason for running was buying time to weigh options. Debating the options. And I think they never expected to get arrested. Parents in these situations often get sympathy, early on at least. They may have expected the anger to take a little more time to build.

 

[Cool Cats]

I don't believe them. Maybe fear for their safety was a small part. I think the primary reason for running was buying time to weigh options. Debating the options. And I think they never expected to get arrested. Parents in these situations often get sympathy, early on at least. They may have expected the anger to take a little more time to build.

I think they got death threats but your probably right that the primary reason for running wasn't about death threats but more about trying to figure out what to do.

I thought they knew they were getting arrested because the DA announced that they had been charged and they were sopose to turn themselves in that Friday afternoon.

They skipped out on their court appearance.

 

[JayWill]

I think they got death threats but your probably right that the primary reason for running wasn't about death threats but more about trying to figure out what to do.

I thought they knew they were getting arrested because the DA announced that they had been charged and they were sopose to turn themselves in that Friday afternoon.

They skipped out on their court appearance.

In my opinion, these are people who cannot see far enough ahead to see the consequences of their actions. They could not see that giving a gun to an underaged child, who then boasted about it on SM, would have consequences. That laughing about him being caught googling for ammunition and ignoring the school communication about it would have consequences and that running away and hiding would have consequences.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

But it doesn’t make matters worse, if the matter at hand is preventing students at school from being gravely injured or murdered. I’m not speaking to matters of educational progress, nor student self-esteem, nor racial disparity.

If it makes matters worse for a chunk of our students, then how do we say that the policies don't make matters worse?

Are there studies that zero tolerance policies affect school shooting occurances?

https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/zero-tolerance.pdf

 

[mooseandcoffee]

I wasn't speaking about the school. IMO, 15 year olds should not even be allowed in gun shops, let alone help their father choose a gun. Are 15 year olds allowed in bars?

I'm not arguing with you. My original comment was in response to a comment about reinstating zero tolerance policies.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Where are you getting that information? Do you have an msm source that reports accurate information from all other countries?

School shootings in the US compared with the rest of the world - CNN

 

[Arkay]

And, truthfully, it is more stressful to be wondering if the next argument or conflict is going to be violent with weapons rather than to go through the detectors and have my bag go through the machine each day.

SBM
@kaen I agree with everything you wrote.

I'm surprised, though, that even you have to go through metal detectors and a bag search.

In all the schools I know that do have metal detectors (my school doesn't, actually), the teachers are not searched. To become a licensed teacher in NYC we already had to go through fingerprint and background checks. I suppose that wouldn't stop anyone from becoming an infamous "disgruntled employee," but I have never heard of teachers being searched. We are acting in loco parentis and are trusted to be with their children.

I guess your state or city has different laws?


Yes, it's stressful to always be going through shelter drills and active shooter drills. The kids like fire drills because they like having class interrupted and seeing their friends from other classes.

The one time we had a child with a gun we were on lockdown for hours, hiding in the corner away from windows and the door, which I locked after scoping the hall quickly for any loose teenagers. All the kids did actually stay (mostly) quiet for all that time, although some of my 8th graders were crying because they were worried about their younger siblings in the building. We all did what we were supposed to, and thank God the student was persuaded to hand over the gun, so he never was "actively" shooting.

However--it really reinforced for the kids why they do have to pay attention during drills.

 

[kaen]

SBM
@kaen I agree with everything you wrote.

I'm surprised, though, that even you have to go through metal detectors and a bag search.

In all the schools I know that do have metal detectors (my school doesn't, actually), the teachers are not searched. To become a licensed teacher in NYC we already had to go through fingerprint and background checks. I suppose that wouldn't stop anyone from becoming an infamous "disgruntled employee," but I have never heard of teachers being searched. We are acting in loco parentis and are trusted to be with their children.

I guess your state or city has different laws?


Yes, it's stressful to always be going through shelter drills and active shooter drills. The kids like fire drills because they like having class interrupted and seeing their friends from other classes.

The one time we had a child with a gun we were on lockdown for hours, hiding in the corner away from windows and the door, which I locked after scoping the hall quickly for any loose teenagers. All the kids did actually stay (mostly) quiet for all that time, although some of my 8th graders were crying because they were worried about their younger siblings in the building. We all did what we were supposed to, and thank God the student was persuaded to hand over the gun, so he never was "actively" shooting.

However--it really reinforced for the kids why they do have to pay attention during drills.

Have been in NYC for the last number of years. Our building required teachers to scan their bags and do detectors on demand not necessarily every day but at safety officer guidelines. We used to be able to enter through a side door but no more. We were a large school building with six different schools and a number of non-profits that also provide services. Yes, all are fingerprinted and back ground checked but... we got word that the front door is the access and follow school safety officer, which is what we do now. Might be different borough or school or whatever, I am not sure. I am at a new building with different procedures now.

I have not had a lockdown with an active shooter inside my building. But, when in CT (during Sandy Hook) my school was on lockdown with resource officers due to the shooter's connection in our vicinity. It was one of the worst days in my life as a school administrator. The overwhelming feeling that something could happen any minute and I could not save all in my care was excruciating. Have now done lots of A. L. I. C. E. training, conflict res training, restorative justice training you name it. Everyday when school is done, I say to each of my students to travel safely home as well as all the others I see. We are not guaranteed any more days but I never want to have something like this shooting happen on my watch or to the people I am responsible for.

 

[JayWill]

Have been in NYC for the last number of years. Our building required teachers to scan their bags and do detectors on demand not necessarily every day but at safety officer guidelines. We used to be able to enter through a side door but no more. We were a large school building with six different schools and a number of non-profits that also provide services. Yes, all are fingerprinted and back ground checked but... we got word that the front door is the access and follow school safety officer, which is what we do now. Might be different borough or school or whatever, I am not sure. I am at a new building with different procedures now.

I have not had a lockdown with an active shooter inside my building. But, when in CT (during Sandy Hook) my school was on lockdown with resource officers due to the shooter's connection in our vicinity. It was one of the worst days in my life as a school administrator. The overwhelming feeling that something could happen any minute and I could not save all in my care was excruciating. Have now done lots of A. L. I. C. E. training, conflict res training, restorative justice training you name it. Everyday when school is done, I say to each of my students to travel safely home as well as all the others I see. We are not guaranteed any more days but I never want to have something like this shooting happen on my watch or to the people I am responsible for.

I think it is a sensible precaution to have teachers scanned into the building too. Mental illness respects no class or occupation.

 

[steeltowngirl]

If it makes matters worse for a chunk of our students, then how do we say that the policies don't make matters worse?

Are there studies that zero tolerance policies affect school shooting occurances?

https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/zero-tolerance.pdf

I am not aware of any studies correlating schools that have had zero tolerance with increased school safety. I have also not heard of any mass shootings in schools that had implemented zero tolerance. I might adjust my opinion if there is evidence of injuries or deaths by weapons, despite a zero tolerance policy.

My opinion favoring zero tolerance related to school safety only addresses one matter: preventing kids from being killed by weapons in school. It is a stop-gap action while they work towards finding and fixing the root causes.

Sadly, desperate times can require desperate measures.

jmo

 

[kaen]

I’ve attached links to two articles that support your point.

That said, I stand behind my call for a return to zero tolerance when it comes to school safety (weapons, threats).

The problem IS complex. Implementing a simple solution does not fix that. But it doesn’t make matters worse, if the matter at hand is preventing students at school from being gravely injured or murdered. I’m not speaking to matters of educational progress, nor student self-esteem, nor racial disparity.

The goal of the simple fix is only this: Stop the madness. Kids should be safe from being slaughtered by weapons brought to school. jmo

What alternative do you suggest?

https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/zero-tolerance.pdf
Zero-tolerance policies in schools related to higher suspension rates

Not only is the situation complex , it is community dependent with underfunding of resources to make a real difference through early intervention programs, support services, community mental health services, remediation services, and on and on.

It don't think there is an either/or answer. IMHO and in my experience, we have to deal with where we are now (75+ school shootings in 19-20SY with a steady increase from a low of 11 in 09-10SY https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2021/2021092.pdf) which means zero tolerance, policies that are vetted, reviewed, and reinforced with zero tolerance for school admins/districts who resist AND an evidence based prevention program that begins in elementary schools targeting at-risk students, at-risk families. Children are in need of lots more than they are getting from what I see and what my friends who are educators see. We have too many issues, too few resources. Our schools can't be dangerous but also have to have plans for intervening. We all can agree that schools can't do it all but point in fact that is what is needed, especially since no other funding or planning is going into developing programs outside of schools.