MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

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I'm wondering if their probably cause conference is going to get pushed as well, for the same reason.

Likely. So common that courts push Hearings to later dates.

I am interested in seeing:

Prosecutor Karen McDonald said the shooting was premeditated, based on a “mountain of digital evidence” against Ethan Crumbley.

During the arraignment, Karen D. McDonald, the Oakland County prosecutor, said that there was overwhelming evidence that would show that Mr. and Ms. Crumbley should have known that their son was a danger to his school.
 
Ethan Crumbley attorney: School shooting an 'isolated incident' (detroitnews.com)

Rochester Hills — The attorney for accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley told a judge Monday that the teen doesn't pose a danger to other children and asked that he be moved from the Oakland County Jail into a youth facility.

"I honestly do not believe my client should be considered a menace to other juveniles," Crumbley's attorney Paulette Loftin said during a brief hearing Monday before 52/3 District Judge Nancy Carniak.

Loftin added of her 15-year-old client, who is charged with first-degree murder in connection with the Nov. 30 rampage that left four students dead and seven people injured: "He doesn't have a history of assaulting kids his age. This one isolated incident is all that we're looking at today."...


That took some moxie to say, as if the isolated incidence was shoplifting.
 
Why can’t EC hear adults talking in jail? What is that all about?

the statute that governs placing juveniles in adult jail are listed below. Apparently the fact that he can hear the adult inmates falls under the bolded by me:

(A) Bail; Detention.

(1) Bail. Except as provided in subrule (2) the magistrate or court must advise the juvenile of a right to bail as provided for an adult accused. The magistrate or the court may order a juvenile released to a parent or guardian on the basis of any lawful condition, including that bail be posted.

(2) Detention Without Bail. If the proof is evident or if the presumption is great that the juvenile committed the offense, the magistrate or the court may deny bail:

(a) to a juvenile charged with first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or

(b) to a juvenile charged with first-degree criminal sexual conduct, or armed robbery,

(i) who is likely to flee, or

(ii) who clearly presents a danger to others.

(B) Place of Confinement.

(1) Juvenile Facility. Except as provided in subrule (B)(2) and in MCR 6.907(B), a juvenile charged with a crime and not released must be placed in a juvenile facility while awaiting trial and, if necessary, sentencing, rather than being placed in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners.

(2) Jailing of Juveniles; Restricted. On motion of a prosecuting attorney or a superintendent of a juvenile facility in which the juvenile is detained, the magistrate or court may order the juvenile confined in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners upon a showing that

(a) the juvenile's habits or conduct are considered a menace to other juveniles; or

(b) the juvenile may not otherwise be safely detained in a juvenile facility.

(3) Family Division Operated Facility. The juvenile shall not be placed in an institution operated by the family division of the circuit court except with the consent of the family division or on order of a court as defined in MCR 6.903(C).

(4) Separate Custody of Juvenile. The juvenile in custody or detention must be maintained separately from the adult prisoners or adult accused as required by MCL 764.27a.

(C) Speedy Trial. Within 7 days of the filing of a motion, the court shall release a juvenile who has remained in detention while awaiting trial for more than 91 days to answer for the specified juvenile violation unless the trial has commenced. In computing the 91-day period, the court is to exclude delays as provided in MCR 6.004(C)(1)-(6) and the time required to conduct the hearing on the motion.

Mich. Ct. R. 6.909

the referenced MCL 764/27a states as follows:
(3) A juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the circuit court for committing a felony may be confined in the county jail pending trial. An individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the probate court for committing a felony may be held in the county jail pending trial if the case is designated by the court under section 2d of chapter XIIA of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 712A.2d, as a case in which the individual is to be tried in the same manner as an adult and the court has determined that there is probable cause to believe that the felony was committed and that there is probable cause to believe the individual committed that felony. If a juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age is confined in the county jail under this subsection, the juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age must be held physically separate from adult prisoners.
 
the statute that governs placing juveniles in adult jail are listed below. Apparently the fact that he can hear the adult inmates falls under the bolded by me:

(A) Bail; Detention.

(1) Bail. Except as provided in subrule (2) the magistrate or court must advise the juvenile of a right to bail as provided for an adult accused. The magistrate or the court may order a juvenile released to a parent or guardian on the basis of any lawful condition, including that bail be posted.

(2) Detention Without Bail. If the proof is evident or if the presumption is great that the juvenile committed the offense, the magistrate or the court may deny bail:

(a) to a juvenile charged with first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or

(b) to a juvenile charged with first-degree criminal sexual conduct, or armed robbery,

(i) who is likely to flee, or

(ii) who clearly presents a danger to others.

(B) Place of Confinement.

(1) Juvenile Facility. Except as provided in subrule (B)(2) and in MCR 6.907(B), a juvenile charged with a crime and not released must be placed in a juvenile facility while awaiting trial and, if necessary, sentencing, rather than being placed in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners.

(2) Jailing of Juveniles; Restricted. On motion of a prosecuting attorney or a superintendent of a juvenile facility in which the juvenile is detained, the magistrate or court may order the juvenile confined in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners upon a showing that

(a) the juvenile's habits or conduct are considered a menace to other juveniles; or

(b) the juvenile may not otherwise be safely detained in a juvenile facility.

(3) Family Division Operated Facility. The juvenile shall not be placed in an institution operated by the family division of the circuit court except with the consent of the family division or on order of a court as defined in MCR 6.903(C).

(4) Separate Custody of Juvenile. The juvenile in custody or detention must be maintained separately from the adult prisoners or adult accused as required by MCL 764.27a.

(C) Speedy Trial. Within 7 days of the filing of a motion, the court shall release a juvenile who has remained in detention while awaiting trial for more than 91 days to answer for the specified juvenile violation unless the trial has commenced. In computing the 91-day period, the court is to exclude delays as provided in MCR 6.004(C)(1)-(6) and the time required to conduct the hearing on the motion.

Mich. Ct. R. 6.909

the referenced MCL 764/27a states as follows:
(3) A juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the circuit court for committing a felony may be confined in the county jail pending trial. An individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the probate court for committing a felony may be held in the county jail pending trial if the case is designated by the court under section 2d of chapter XIIA of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 712A.2d, as a case in which the individual is to be tried in the same manner as an adult and the court has determined that there is probable cause to believe that the felony was committed and that there is probable cause to believe the individual committed that felony. If a juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age is confined in the county jail under this subsection, the juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age must be held physically separate from adult prisoners.

Thank you for this. Interesting, since he’s being tried as an adult.
 
Unbelievable. “The Village” can better meet his needs? An isolated incident? Are these people high on something? And he doesn’t need school. He’s going to be locked up for the rest of his life. He kind of forfeited any right to having his needs fulfilled when he committed mass murder of children. Pardon me if I don’t lose sleep over his current predicament.
Thankfully, the judge called BS on the defense and GAL arguments.
Totally agree. He'll be fine. If he is put where he can't hear other inmates, he prolly won't see them, either, and they will not see him. Sounds like he should be okay -- he won't be mixing with them most likely unless he goes to the cafeteria (or whatever it is called) to eat or goes into one of those enclosures to exercise. I'm betting he won't be mixed with the other inmates in either situation. If so, he will prolly be somewhat isolated from the rest or go at a different time. Meals will prolly be brought to him. Dunno. JMO
And you make a good point about school, too. They have books in those jails, so he should be able to "resume" some kind of education... I feel sure it's what his parents would want <choke>.

Good to "see you" here, my friend, @Boodles! ;)...:cool:
 
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So as @tlcya explained, EC has to be kept physically apart from the adult inmate population. That I can understand.

What I don't understand is why he can't be within the sound of their voices. If they can't physically harm or abuse him, what's the big deal if he can hear them? He's too delicate to hear whatever they'll say, after slaughtering his schoolmates?

Maybe I'm heartless but I really don't care if he can overhear them, as long as they are physically unable to reach him.

As for school, well it's the law. He has to have an education. Too bad he shot up his school----I'm not going to cry if his school situation is imperfect now.
 
Totally agree. He'll be fine. If he is put where he can't hear other inmates, he prolly won't see them, either, and they will not see him. Sounds like he should be okay -- he won't be mixing with them most likely unless he goes to the cafeteria (or whatever it is called) to eat or goes into one of those enclosures to exercise. I'm betting he won't be mixed with the other inmates in either situation, that's JMO.
And you make a good point about school, too. They have books in those jails, so he should be able to "resume" some kind of education... I feel sure it's what his parents would want <choke>.

Good to "see you" here, my friend, @Boodles! ;)...:cool:

He won't mix with adults ever. He will eat in his cell. Exercise will be alone.

The Sheriff said there were other priorities above his continuing education such as proper representation. He is or was on standard suicide watch. His parents too.
 
So as @tlcya explained, EC has to be kept physically apart from the adult inmate population. That I can understand.

What I don't understand is why he can't be within the sound of their voices. If they can't physically harm or abuse him, what's the big deal if he can hear them? He's too delicate to hear whatever they'll say, after slaughtering his schoolmates?

Maybe I'm heartless but I really don't care if he can overhear them, as long as they are physically unable to reach him.

As for school, well it's the law. He has to have an education. Too bad he shot up his school----I'm not going to cry if his school situation is imperfect now.

They need to keep the inmates from yelling at him. Ethan probably complained that someone was yelling insults at him, this is what happens sometimes.

Thus, he has to be kept away from their verbal insults. Which goes to show how unsafe he would be in general population for his age and for what he did.

They know who he is and where he locks.

The guards don't care about Ethan complaining, notice it ended up going before the judge instead if being taken care of within the jail. Could have been taken care of immediately.

~ 2 Cents~
 
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the statute that governs placing juveniles in adult jail are listed below. Apparently the fact that he can hear the adult inmates falls under the bolded by me:

(A) Bail; Detention.

(1) Bail. Except as provided in subrule (2) the magistrate or court must advise the juvenile of a right to bail as provided for an adult accused. The magistrate or the court may order a juvenile released to a parent or guardian on the basis of any lawful condition, including that bail be posted.

(2) Detention Without Bail. If the proof is evident or if the presumption is great that the juvenile committed the offense, the magistrate or the court may deny bail:

(a) to a juvenile charged with first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or

(b) to a juvenile charged with first-degree criminal sexual conduct, or armed robbery,

(i) who is likely to flee, or

(ii) who clearly presents a danger to others.

(B) Place of Confinement.

(1) Juvenile Facility. Except as provided in subrule (B)(2) and in MCR 6.907(B), a juvenile charged with a crime and not released must be placed in a juvenile facility while awaiting trial and, if necessary, sentencing, rather than being placed in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners.

(2) Jailing of Juveniles; Restricted. On motion of a prosecuting attorney or a superintendent of a juvenile facility in which the juvenile is detained, the magistrate or court may order the juvenile confined in a jail or similar facility designed and used to incarcerate adult prisoners upon a showing that

(a) the juvenile's habits or conduct are considered a menace to other juveniles; or

(b) the juvenile may not otherwise be safely detained in a juvenile facility.

(3) Family Division Operated Facility. The juvenile shall not be placed in an institution operated by the family division of the circuit court except with the consent of the family division or on order of a court as defined in MCR 6.903(C).

(4) Separate Custody of Juvenile. The juvenile in custody or detention must be maintained separately from the adult prisoners or adult accused as required by MCL 764.27a.

(C) Speedy Trial. Within 7 days of the filing of a motion, the court shall release a juvenile who has remained in detention while awaiting trial for more than 91 days to answer for the specified juvenile violation unless the trial has commenced. In computing the 91-day period, the court is to exclude delays as provided in MCR 6.004(C)(1)-(6) and the time required to conduct the hearing on the motion.

Mich. Ct. R. 6.909

the referenced MCL 764/27a states as follows:
(3) A juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the circuit court for committing a felony may be confined in the county jail pending trial. An individual less than 18 years of age who is under the jurisdiction of the probate court for committing a felony may be held in the county jail pending trial if the case is designated by the court under section 2d of chapter XIIA of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 712A.2d, as a case in which the individual is to be tried in the same manner as an adult and the court has determined that there is probable cause to believe that the felony was committed and that there is probable cause to believe the individual committed that felony. If a juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age is confined in the county jail under this subsection, the juvenile or individual less than 18 years of age must be held physically separate from adult prisoners.
Thanks for getting us that information, @tlcya.
I like reading the State Statutes -- especially because every state varies somewhat.
 
He won't mix with adults ever. He will eat in his cell. Exercise will be alone.

The Sheriff said there were other priorities above his continuing education such as proper representation. He is or was on standard suicide watch. His parents too.
I'll bet all three of them love those prison suicide smocks/suits...
:D

To wit:




https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...hUKEwiy3KqO_OH0AhUEZDUKHVzTBu4Q420oAHoECAwQBA
An anti-suicide smock, Ferguson, turtle suit, pickle suit, Bam Bam suit, or suicide gown, is a tear-resistant single-piece outer garment that is generally used to prevent a hospitalized, incarcerated, or otherwise detained individual from forming a noose with the garment to die by suicide.

Anti-suicide smock - Wikipedia
 
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Studies have shown that students of color are punished disproportionately for "zero tolerance" policies....especially for breaking the foggier types of rules such as "disrespect."

However, it looks as though the majority of school shootings such as the one that took place in Michigan were perpetrated by white students. That doesn't mean that zero tolerance won't prevent some, but it seems to hurt kids who aren't doing the majority of the crimes.

Mass shootings by shooter’s race in the U.S. 2021 | Statista

Not surprised by those statistics, I just wonder why...
I wonder how it compares to "street shootings."
We see street shootings, too. Why in schools? Because the shooter has a captive audience? What is it?
 
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Is the irony lost on his lawyer that the reason why his education has been derailed is he tried to murder as many people as possible at his school so school is not in session? And mass murder as an isolated incident doesn’t exactly reduce it to nothing to worry about here with this young man.
 
Is the irony lost on his lawyer that the reason why his education has been derailed is he tried to murder as many people as possible at his school so school is not in session? And mass murder as an isolated incident doesn’t exactly reduce it to nothing to worry about here with this young man.

Irony not lost on judge.
 
The morning of the shooting, school officials met with Ethan Crumbley and his parents at the school after a teacher found a drawing of a gun, a bullet and a person who appeared to have been shot, along with messages stating, “My life is useless” and “The world is dead.”

Teen accused in Michigan high school shooting due in court

...

So sad that a 15 yr old thinks they are useless, must not have had a good home life.

Jmo

Absolutely not an excuse for murder.

bbm
Agreed, absolutely.
Maybe he was trying to be a "big man" in front of his dad.

No excuses from me, just wondering why, why, why? He planned it -- making sure he had plenty of ammo; going to the shooting range.
A Sig Sauer -- damm. Mr. Big Man.

Just so very horrible for those families and the adult, too. And this won't be the last one, but hoping this case, which is in all MSM and on TV, etc., maybe it will make the parents of a potential shooter be more careful since his parents are in jail and going to face MI laws (wishful thinking??).
 
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