GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #4

[Cool Cats]

MOO

Pure speculation

I think the Crumbley's went with BJ as a custodian because he was the only person they knew who would offer them a place to stay. I don't think they were necessarily nice people and I don't think they had a wide circle of friends.

IIRC, Jennifer at least has some family much closer than Sanilac County, which is in the Thumb area, not really near Oakland County and very different demographically.

Guess her family isn't interested in housing and feeding and chauffeuring them and keeping tabs on them 24/7.

No surprise there.

What on earth were their lawyer's thinking?

 

[Cool Cats]

If I hadn't read that litany of very, very excellent reasons why "B.J." is unlikely to be a trustworthy custodian of a mass murderer's potentially legally culpable parents, I literally would not have believed it.

The Crumbleys need better counsel if they expect a decent defense. Any attorney who would request release to such a legally & otherwise troubled person is laughable, negligent & basically unfit to hold a law license in my view.

With this bulldog prosecutor having kept them incarcerated for almost a year, they would be wise to take a plea. Maybe the appeals court will surprise me, but I doubt it!

My rather harsh opinion only

I wonder what type of plea deal they could get? If anyone sees an article that talks about this, please post.

A plea deal would get them far less time in prison then if they are found guilty of all their multiple charges - which multiplies the prison sentence.

Jennifer and James Crumbley were each charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

 

[WingsOverTX]

Guess her family isn't interested in housing and feeding and chauffeuring them and keeping tabs on them 24/7.

No surprise there.

What on earth were their lawyer's thinking?

Their lawyers have not been adequate from the starting gate IMO. I honestly think if convicted, they might have a reasonable appeal on the basis of inadequate counsel. That would be unfortunate.

It's very concerning. While I think they are guilty as charged, the adjudication needs to be fair & adequate to meet the basic threshold of Constitutional rights in our system of justice.

After the Michigan appeals court rules, we are likely to see a plea.

I do not think these two are going to be walking the streets (or escaping to Canada) any time soon.

Ethan wisely pleaded guilty. His parents having abandoned him to the system while retaining private counsel speaks to their state of mind in a very culpable manner IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Their lawyers have not been adequate from the starting gate IMO. I honestly think if convicted, they might have a reasonable appeal on the basis of inadequate counsel. That would be unfortunate.

It's very concerning. While I think they are guilty as charged, the adjudication needs to be fair & adequate to meet the basic threshold of Constitutional rights in our system of justice.

After the Michigan appeals court rules, we are likely to see a plea.

I do not think these two are going to be walking the streets (or escaping to Canada) any time soon.

Ethan wisely pleaded guilty. His parents having abandoned him to the system while retaining private counsel speaks to their state of mind in a very culpable manner IMO.

Ethan pleaded guilty? Can't believe I missed this. So no trial then. There must be court video of his guilty plea, will have to look this up. Thought he had an insane defense.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Ethan pleaded guilty? Can't believe I missed this. So no trial then. There must be court video of his guilty plea, will have to look this up. Thought he had an insane defense.

Emotions run high as Ethan Crumbley pleads guilty in Oxford High shooting

Defense attorneys Monday entered the guilty plea to 24 criminal charges including terrorism causing death and first-degree murder, which carry up to life in prison.

www.detroitnews.com

Oxford High School shooter pleads guilty to 24 felony charges

The Oxford High School shooter pleaded guilty Monday morning to two dozen felony charges, including murder and terrorism.

www.clickondetroit.com

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I wonder what type of plea deal they could get? If anyone sees an article that talks about this, please post.

A plea deal would get them far less time in prison then if they are found guilty of all their multiple charges - which multiplies the prison sentence.

Jennifer and James Crumbley were each charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

I think the manslaughter charges are going to be difficult to prove because the parents were not present in the school building nor did they actively participate in the shooting. I could see a plea deal with charges reduced to child endangerment and/or neglect, straw purchase of a weapon for their son, failure to secure the weapon, etc. JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

OT/Related

Oxford school board selects outsider as interim leader

An outsider will take the helm of Oxford Community Schools as it defends itself against civil lawsuits stemming from the November 2021 shooting.

www.detroitnews.com

For the first time since the Nov. 30, 2021, school shooting, an outsider will take the helm of Oxford Community Schools as it navigates its three-year recovery plan and defends against multiple civil lawsuits stemming from the attack.

Oxford Community Schools hired Vickie L. Markavitch as interim superintendent until June 30 as it works to rebuild trust in the community and implement a recovery plan with beefed up security after the shooting killed four students.

The former superintendent of the Oakland Schools intermediate district from 2004-15, Markavitch was hired Tuesday by the board of education at its regular meeting. She starts Jan. 9...

 

[Cool Cats]

I think the manslaughter charges are going to be difficult to prove because the parents were not present in the school building nor did they actively participate in the shooting. I could see a plea deal with charges reduced to child endangerment and/or neglect, straw purchase of a weapon for their son, failure to secure the weapon, etc. JMO

Do you think they are over charged? I have a tendency to think in general prosecutors throw way too many charges or serious charges at people to force what even innocent people do, take plea deals.

But I believe the Crumbly parents contributed to what happened and deserve some charges and accountability in the community. I just don't see the point in them sitting in prison for 20 plus years which is what they face. The one and only woman's prison in MI can't even fit in all the inmates and uses moldy run down storage areas to shove in all the over crowded inmates.

We throw people in prison for long sentences too much in this country where shorter sentences and house arrest work well. And community service and strict probation conditions and restitution $ also work well added to that.

I could see them both doing some time on lesser charges as you mentioned without sitting in prison for 20 plus years.

I am in no way shape or form detracting from the 4 lives lost. I am sad and devastated by it. I do think the Crumbley's deserve some prison time then house arrest, then community service and restitution $ with strict probation.

In college I was involved in a protest and ended up being way over charged, having various charges thrown at me that could have landed me in prison. Luckily my mom could afford the best attorneys and they got all but one charge thrown out but my one charge was still a felony charge but instead of doing a year in jail for that my attorneys negotiated for me with the prosecutor and I got community service and fines and probation.

As a first time offender I still didn't qualify for a diversion program dropping the charge because it was a felony. But, I got lucky. I was in a State that allowed me to go back to court 3 years later and get my felony completely dropped from my record - the judge expunged it from my record - so I was able to get employment and my background checks come up normal like it never happened.

Even a misdemeanor on your record can bar you from getting good employment. If your background check comes up positive FOR ANYTHING employers prefer to hire people with no record at all.

The Crumbley's already face a lifetime of having serious problems getting good jobs.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Quote snipped by me.

I just don't see the point in them sitting in prison for 20 plus years which is what they face.

I don't know what an appropriate sentence would be, but I think it's important to consider that 4 lost lives means many more than 4 people lost a beloved teenager from their lives forever. How much time served is each life worth? How much for the loss to their many loved-ones?

And then you have to take into account their egregious behavior afterwards.

The Crumbley's already face a lifetime of having serious problems getting good jobs

Because of their numerous own actions.
All JMO.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Do you think they are over charged? I have a tendency to think in general prosecutors throw way too many charges or serious charges at people to force what even innocent people do, take plea deals.

<respectfully snipped>

I can't speak to whether or not the Crumbley parents are over-charged, but I think that proving manslaughter might be an uphill battle for prosecutors. Here is a good explanation for the crime of manslaughter in Michigan. I don't see how James and/or Jennifer Crumbly meet the criteria for having committed manslaughter. JMO

750.321 and 750.322 Manslaughter – Michigan Legislature - Grabel & Associates - MI Criminal Defense Lawyers

Manslaughter is homicide without the elements of malice and premeditation. Our lawyers have a successful history defending clients charged with all types of homicide. Call 800-342-7896 for a free consultation with a Michigan Criminal Defense Lawyer.

www.grabellaw.com

In Michigan, the crime of manslaughter (voluntary) is similar to that of murder, however without the element of malice aforethought. While manslaughter is not justified, the circumstances under which an individual commits an intentional killing often mitigate the homicide. In order for prosecutors to prove the charge of voluntary manslaughter, he/she must prove three elements beyond a reasonable doubt.

Elements of manslaughter:​

1. That the defendant caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of the defendant's action.
2. That the defendant either:
   1. intended to kill the victim
   2. intended to do great bodily harm to the victim,
   3. created a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant's actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result.
3. That the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.

Involuntary manslaughter occurs when an individual kills another person without intent, or unintentionally. The criminal penalties for involuntary manslaughter are as severe as those for voluntary manslaughter...

 

[Cool Cats]

<respectfully snipped>

I can't speak to whether or not the Crumbley parents are over-charged, but I think that proving manslaughter might be an uphill battle for prosecutors. Here is a good explanation for the crime of manslaughter in Michigan. I don't see how James and/or Jennifer Crumbly meet the criteria for having committed manslaughter. JMO

750.321 and 750.322 Manslaughter – Michigan Legislature - Grabel & Associates - MI Criminal Defense Lawyers

Manslaughter is homicide without the elements of malice and premeditation. Our lawyers have a successful history defending clients charged with all types of homicide. Call 800-342-7896 for a free consultation with a Michigan Criminal Defense Lawyer.

www.grabellaw.com

In Michigan, the crime of manslaughter (voluntary) is similar to that of murder, however without the element of malice aforethought. While manslaughter is not justified, the circumstances under which an individual commits an intentional killing often mitigate the homicide. In order for prosecutors to prove the charge of voluntary manslaughter, he/she must prove three elements beyond a reasonable doubt.

Elements of manslaughter:​

1. That the defendant caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of the defendant's action.
2. That the defendant either:
   1. intended to kill the victim
   2. intended to do great bodily harm to the victim,
   3. created a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant's actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result.
3. That the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.

Involuntary manslaughter occurs when an individual kills another person without intent, or unintentionally. The criminal penalties for involuntary manslaughter are as severe as those for voluntary manslaughter...

Very good explanation. You are right, I don't think the Crumbley's meet the manslaughter definition.

Didn't their lawyers try to get their charges dropped because of this but a judge disagreed?

I will have to find these arguments and why the courts feel the Crumbley's meet the manslaughter definition.

 

[Cool Cats]

Quote snipped by me.


I don't know what an appropriate sentence would be, but I think it's important to consider that 4 lost lives means many more than 4 people lost a beloved teenager from their lives forever. How much time served is each life worth? How much for the loss to their many loved-ones?

And then you have to take into account their egregious behavior afterwards.



Because of their numerous own actions.
All JMO.

Good points but I don't think the parents meet Michigan's definition of manslaughter. The person who killed them will serve a life sentence.

The parents contributed by not locking up the gun and the school contributed by not checking the backpack. Ethan said the gun was not locked up and he kept the gun in his backpack.

Simply locking up the gun or checking the backpack could have stopped the shooting that day.

The parents should be charged on lesser charges for giving Ethan a gun and not locking it up and not getting him mental health care.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Good points but I don't think the parents meet Michigan's definition of manslaughter. The person who killed them will serve a life sentence.

The parents contributed by not locking up the gun and the school contributed by not checking the backpack. Ethan said the gun was not locked up and he kept the gun in his backpack.

Simply locking up the gun or checking the backpack could have stopped the shooting that day.

The parents should be charged on lesser charges for giving Ethan a gun and not locking it up and not getting him mental health care.

I believe charges of child endangerment and neglect are warranted along with eluding law enforcement and attempting to abscond.

I've often wondered how the Crumbleys would have reacted if school officials had asked to search Ethan's backpack. They seem like the type of parents who would object to such an intrusion. I don't think this was the first time that Ethan's parents paid a visit to the principal's office. Maybe school officials knew how the Crumbleys would react if they even hinted at inspecting Ethan's belongings. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe charges of child endangerment and neglect are warranted along with eluding law enforcement and attempting to abscond.

I've often wondered how the Crumbleys would have reacted if school officials had asked to search Ethan's backpack. They seem like the type of parents who would object to such an intrusion. I don't think this was the first time that Ethan's parents paid a visit to the principal's office. Maybe school officials knew how the Crumbleys would react if they even hinted at inspecting Ethan's belongings. JMO

The parents should have searched his backpack that day. They knew they had a gun laying around.

Had the parents tried to stop a backpack search, that would make them more culpable than they are now and then it would make more sense to charge them with manslaughter.

Unfortunately, the school never even mentioned searching his backpack so we don't know what the parents would have said. Also, did the school even ask the parents if they had a gun?

Ask if Ethan could get hold of a gun?
I don't think so.

If the school asked and the parents denied having a gun then again, that would be more of a reason for manslaughter charges.

School officials dropped the ball but are not being charged with any crime.

 

[Sundog]

Very good explanation. You are right, I don't think the Crumbley's meet the manslaughter definition.

Didn't their lawyers try to get their charges dropped because of this but a judge disagreed?

I will have to find these arguments and why the courts feel the Crumbley's meet the manslaughter definition.

IIRC, I think the judge who heard the case sent it back to the lower court, but didn't adjudicate on whether or not the case met the definition of manslaughter. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Sundog]

Good points but I don't think the parents meet Michigan's definition of manslaughter. The person who killed them will serve a life sentence.

The parents contributed by not locking up the gun and the school contributed by not checking the backpack. Ethan said the gun was not locked up and he kept the gun in his backpack.

Simply locking up the gun or checking the backpack could have stopped the shooting that day.

The parents should be charged on lesser charges for giving Ethan a gun and not locking it up and not getting him mental health care.

I thought that Michigan doesn't have a requirement to lock up a gun.

 

[Sundog]

I believe charges of child endangerment and neglect are warranted along with eluding law enforcement and attempting to abscond.

<abore snipped for focus>

I agree, that should be the extend of their charges.

 

[Cool Cats]

I thought that Michigan doesn't have a requirement to lock up a gun.

If they don't right now I think they are trying to get a requirement passed into law.

Still, law or no law, the Crumbley's bought the murder weapon and left it available for the murderer to use. And denied their son mental health treatment.

They are guilty of bad parenting but I don't think manslaughter.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

IIRC, I think the judge who heard the case sent it back to the lower court, but didn't adjudicate on whether or not the case met the definition of manslaughter. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Your memory is correct. The Michigan Supreme Court stayed the case and sent it back to the Court of Appeals. If it's determined that there is not enough evidence for manslaughter, the case could be dismissed.

Michigan Supreme Court pauses Crumbley parents' involuntary manslaughter case

The order, filed a day before the one-year anniversary of the Oxford school shooting, is expected to delay the parents' January trial.

www.detroitnews.com

The Michigan Supreme Court on Tuesday sent the involuntary manslaughter case of the parents of accused Oxford High shooter Ethan Crumbley back to the Court of Appeals to consider whether there was sufficient evidence for James and Jennifer Crumbley to stand trial.

The Michigan Court of Appeals in September rejected the appeal filed by attorneys for James and Jennifer Crumbley that requested a stay on their case and urged that some evidence, including their son’s journals and text messages, be considered inadmissible in the case against them in Oakland County Circuit Court.

“This is a big deal because, in theory, the Court of Appeals could dismiss the entire case if they feel there is not enough evidence that the parents’ conduct caused the deaths of the Oxford students,” Birmingham defense lawyer Wade Fink told The Detroit News...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

O/T - Related. The case of James and Jennifer Crumbley is cited in the article.

Father of July 4 shooting suspect charged with reckless conduct

Prosecutors announced felony charges against the father of the man accused of killing seven people and injuring more than 40 during a Fourth of July parade.

www.detroitnews.com

Prosecutors in Illinois announced felony charges Friday against the father of the man accused of killing seven people and injuring more than 40 during a Fourth of July parade in Highland Park.

Robert Crimo Jr. was charged with seven counts of reckless conduct, said Eric Rinehart (D), Lake County's state attorney, who accused him of taking an "unjustified risk" in signing his son's gun ownership application in 2019. Because Robert E. Crimo III was younger than 21 at the time, state law required him to have parental consent.

"Parents and guardians are in the best position to decide whether their teenagers should have a weapon," Rinehart said. "They are the first line of defense."...

...This is at least the second instance in the past year when law enforcement has sought to hold accountable the parents of mass-killing suspects.

In December 2021, James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of a teenager accused of shooting four students at Oxford High School in Michigan, were arrested and charged with involuntary manslaughter in Michigan.