GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #4

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ChatteringBirds said:

It was still unclear as of late Friday which parent would be tried first.

"They need to prove that the parents acted with gross negligence, and that as a direct result of the gross negligence, the deaths occurred," said [DN], a Birmingham defense attorney.

Jennifer Crumbley allegedly placed blame on her husband in jail communications.

The question about what the parents knew of Ethan's mental health is one of the keys in the case.
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Bbm Not surprised at all.
 
ChatteringBirds said:
It's interesting - if Jennifer blames James, and she is found guilty, does he still get a fair trial? It's hard to imagine his jurors not finding out that she was found guilty. Can they really leave that out of their decision regarding James' guilt?

On the other hand, if Jennifer blames James and she is found not-guilty, will his jurors subconsciously think, well then he must be guilty?

Then there's subconscious beliefs about gender roles -- will their roles as parents be seen as the same by both juries? Or is one of them more likely to get the benefit of the doubt or more likely to get the blame?

It's possible one will be found guilty and the other not guilty, and that's mind-blowing to me.
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That is mind blowing, I hope both parents are locked up for life.
 
ChatteringBirds said:
It's interesting - if Jennifer blames James, and she is found guilty, does he still get a fair trial? It's hard to imagine his jurors not finding out that she was found guilty. Can they really leave that out of their decision regarding James' guilt?

On the other hand, if Jennifer blames James and she is found not-guilty, will his jurors subconsciously think, well then he must be guilty?

Then there's subconscious beliefs about gender roles -- will their roles as parents be seen as the same by both juries? Or is one of them more likely to get the benefit of the doubt or more likely to get the blame?

It's possible one will be found guilty and the other not guilty, and that's mind-blowing to me.
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You always ask good questions. I still haven't figured out the answer to your question about this:

Can you refuse to testify against your parent, or is that being in contempt?

I think, for the points you brought up, that they should be tried together. I need to educate myself on why they are not.

I never saw one parent more liable over the other. The dad bought the gun and the mom taught him how to use it. Ethan says it was his "parents" who ignore him, not "my dad" or "my mom."

Both went to the school, both saw what Ethan drew and wrote, both didn't want to take him home and went back to work.

2 Cents
 

Here's what happened in court today​

Guns are an early issue in jury selection​

In the afternoon, the topic of guns heavily dominated jury selection, even though the judge stressed to the prospective jurors: "We are not here to decide if people should have guns."

But after Matthews asked the pool whether anyone had strong opinions about guns that she should know about, multiple hands went up.

One woman said: "I don't like guns" and "We know the gun (in this case) wasn't secure." The judge responded: "No, we don't know that." Still, the woman expressed concerns about a gun not being secured, stating: "If someone got a hold of a gun, I wouldn't excuse that." The prospective juror was sent home.

Another woman said, "I don't believe in anyone having a gun at all." She was excused, too.

A man was excused who said he didn't have a problem with people owning guns, noting his grown son who lives with him has one. But, he raised concerns about whether the Oxford school shooting was preventable, and how the teenage shooter got a hold of the gun, stating: "It could have easily been avoided."

The judge said, "You don't know what happened. ... That's for you to decide."

The judge also gave him an analogy to consider: If a son took his father's gun, and shot someone with it, is it the dad's fault?

The prospective juror concluded the dad would bear responsibility if the child were a minor, stating: "It's my job to protect him and others." He was dismissed.

Parental responsibility was mentioned multiple times during jury selection, as the judge asked the prospective jurors to consider whether a parent is responsible for their child smashing a neighbor's window with a baseball.
One man in the jury box said comparing a baseball to a gun is a bad example.

One woman said: “I have a 10-year-old autistic son … when I think about this case I feel rage.”
Still, she said she believes she can be fair and impartial.
 
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Cool Cats said:
Both went to the school, both saw what Ethan drew and wrote, both didn't want to take him home and went back to work
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And both allegedly didn't touch/hug him when they went to the school. That stands out to me.

IMO things were not going well between parents and son at home (no judgement from me on that. It isn't rare during adolescence, but their feelings toward him that day were negative) and their financial overwhelm (needing to keep jobs) felt more important than taking him home.

It also just makes me wonder if they hadn't found similar drawings in his room before so they didn't see it as an emergency? JMO.

Why didn't the school say they *must* take him home and find help before he could return, considering that drawing? But that's a whole different issue.
 
Cool Cats said:
I think, for the points you brought up, that they should be tried together. I need to educate myself on why they are not.

I never saw one parent more liable over the other. The dad bought the gun and the mom taught him how to use it. Ethan says it was his "parents" who ignore him, not "my dad" or "my mom."
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The parents ended up requesting separate trials and that request was granted. IIRC, it had something to do with communications from Jennifer Crumbley. I found an article here that mentions she initiated the request: Judge orders separate trials for James, Jennifer Crumbley in Oxford H.S. shooting case

Just a slight correction - The mom didn't teach him how to use the gun (or, at least, not this specific gun). She did take him to the shooting range but, from the video, it looked like he was actually instructing her how to use the weapon. There's no way to know at this time which parent taught him to shoot but based on what I recall seeing in his journals, he definitely had a lot of experience with shooting a variety of guns.

Regardless of who taught him, I agree that both parents seem to be liable in this situation for reasons far beyond teaching him how to shoot which, in and of itself, is not that uncommon of an activity. His access to the gun (which is still up for debate) is DEFINITELY an issue if it was not safely secured. Their response or lack thereof to the call from the school that day is also something that falls on both of their shoulders.
 
Cool Cats said:
Can you refuse to testify against your parent, or is that being in contempt?
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I believe the only "in stone" exempt family relationship is between spouses.

That being said, I strongly suspect that prosecutors only use fully voluntary testimony when it involves a child testifying against a parent.

In short, the answer may well be two parts: No, they are not exempt. But unwilling testimony is essentially not used in that situation.
 
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IAMWAN said:
I agree that both parents seem to be liable in this situation for reasons far beyond teaching him how to shoot which, in and of itself, is not that uncommon of an activity. His access to the gun (which is still up for debate) is DEFINITELY an issue if it was not safely secured. Their response or lack thereof to the call from the school that day is also something that falls on both of their shoulders.
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In continuance of points, I think the prosecutor is going to present that the parents were aware of a long history of behavior problems with their son, but still chose to directly introduce him to firearms.

Then factor in that their introduction was purely for recreational target shooting. The introduction was not due to say: "Our family lives in a remote homestead in Alaska. We all have subsistence hunting licenses".
 
Family members of victims of the 2021 mass shooting at Oxford High School said they plan to be in court to witness the criminal trial for the teen gunman's mother that got underway Tuesday...

Craig Shilling said he took a leave from work as a union electrician to be available to attend the high-profile trial, which is being widely viewed as potentially precedent-setting for taking on the issue of parental responsibility.

"I want to be there first-hand to see it through, that has been my goal through everything," Shilling said. "And I feel there is pertinent information that hasn’t come out and could come out. I want to get it right from the horse's mouth. ... I don’t want to miss the opening statements or anything."...

Steve St. Juliana said he plans to attend the trial, which he hopes makes clear the accountability the parents both have in their son's final actions.

"They are the next piece of the puzzle for taking accountability" after the school district, said St. Juliana, who is pursuing a lawsuit in federal court against the district. "It's an important action to drive change. I hope it sets a precedent. Without accountability, there is no change. There is no motivation for people to change their actions or improve. It is driving the message home that people need to think more."...
 
www.clickondetroit.com

Jury seated ahead of trial for mother of Oxford High School shooter

Officials have revealed when the trials will begin for both parents of the Oxford High School shooter.
www.clickondetroit.com www.clickondetroit.com
OXFORD, Mich. – A jury has been seated ahead of the trial for Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the Oxford High School shooter.

The jury selection process began Tuesday and continued into Wednesday afternoon. The jurors were officially selected at 2:38 p.m. Wednesday, and now the trial can begin.

Opening statements are expected to be made Thursday, prosecutors and the defense team told Judge Cheryl A. Matthews on Wednesday afternoon...
 
www.detroitnews.com

Recap Day 2: Jury selected in Jennifer Crumbley trial

The mother of the Oxford High School shooter is being tried on four counts of involuntary manslaughter.
www.detroitnews.com

...Jury chosen, opening statements to be Thursday morning​

A jury has been selected. There are 17 jurors, five of whom will be alternates.

The mostly White jury is made up of 10 women and seven men. Eleven of the jurors are parents and six are not.

About half of the jurors’ parents kept guns in the house growing up, and about half currently have at least one gun in their home...

www.detroitnews.com

Recap Day 2: Jury selected in Jennifer Crumbley trial

The mother of the Oxford High School shooter is being tried on four counts of involuntary manslaughter.
www.detroitnews.com
 
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Learned something new from jury instructions.

If the jury wants to re-listen to a witness' testimony, the court will make that recording available but the jury will need to listen to the witness' entire testimony. Whoa. Some witness testimony, on the stand for hours. How do they listen to all of that?

Opening statements begin.

JMO
 
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