Missouri - The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #7

[TexasT]

Retired detective Neal says they have over 30,000 documents And over 5000 leads .

He seems pretty confident hall or cox aren't involved . Tons of information we don't have likely backs that up .
I don't think any witness statements have or will be released . But from what we are told of " porch lady " her statement makes no sense .
If you witnessed what she claims you would call Police immediately not wait for a missing persons flyer .
Also , not sure if you've been to her house but park a panel van and see if you think you can Clearly hear a conversation from her porch - no way .


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[Missouri Mule]

The only affirmative link to Hall , is the van sightings , which SPD has said are not reliable / creditable .

While I wouldn't dismiss someone in town during busy graduations seeing them driving home it doesn't explain why 3 are missing and never found if Assault was the intent .

It always circles back to the kidnappers being known to at least one of the 3MW.


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That ultimately is the obvious conclusion, unless one believes the girls were intercepted outside the house, however the bedroom and arrangement effectively rules that out.

I firmly believe that one of the two scenarios can be realistically considered. The "trusted" one or a cop at that hour of night. A "trusted cop" can not be ruled out either. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Retired detective Neal says they have over 30,000 documents And over 5000 leads .

He seems pretty confident hall or cox aren't involved . Tons of information we don't have likely backs that up .
I don't think any witness statements have or will be released . But from what we are told of " porch lady " her statement makes no sense .
If you witnessed what she claims you would call Police immediately not wait for a missing persons flyer .
Also , not sure if you've been to her house but park a panel van and see if you think you can Clearly hear a conversation from her porch - no way .


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Agree with one caveat. Why did Cox concoct a false alibi he didn't need?

 

[shadowdancer]

Most murder victims are killed by somebody they know.

I don't believe the Springfield Three are an exception to that fact.

It doesn't make sense for a complete stranger to have done this.

 

[TexasT]

Agree with one caveat. Why did Cox concoct a false alibi he didn't need?

I think he just did not want to be on the " radar " with his back ground . That's pretty typical .
Not that he was out committing some other crimes .

 

[Jenny0101]

I definitely think it was someone they knew, and I have my theory as to who that was. I'm open to the idea that it was someone unknown and still under the radar, though.

 

[monkeymann]

The only affirmative link to Hall , is the van sightings , which SPD has said are not reliable / creditable .

While I wouldn't dismiss someone in town during busy graduations seeing them driving home it doesn't explain why 3 are missing and never found if Assault was the intent .

It always circles back to the kidnappers being known to at least one of the 3MW.



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The only thing I have ever found that may have had some bearing on Larry Hall was that about a month prior to the 3MW crime, there was a civil war reenactment in Butler, Mo. Battle of Butler....or something to that affect.

I wondered for a brief time period if he had been the area for that, as well as for some of the other civil war battle fields in Missouri. He was infatuated with the civil war, and loved travel and visit the sites, as well as participate in civil war reenactments.

Just food for thought. However, the M.O. for Hall's crimes doesn't fit the M.O. of the 3MW crime at all. He snatched people from parking lots, and streets/country roads. Don't think he ever took anyone out of their house. And, to the best of my knowledge, he only tried to abduct two people at once, one time.....but failed.

 

[monkeymann]

I definitely think it was someone they knew, and I have my theory as to who that was. I'm open to the idea that it was someone unknown and still under the radar, though.

Any way to talk about your theory on who you think was good for this crime? I have couple theories that seem fairly plausible, but they are based on the things that happened and the people LE looked at within the first 4-months of the case.

 

[MooseMeMuch]

I understand your reluctance to believe. What in the abduction comes back to someone who knew them? Curious - not being mean or anything. I listened to a couple podcasts on it, but can't remember anything with family - maybe the brother but he was ruled out. Larry and Co were in town for Civil War reenactments. That's been the calling card for a lot of his potential victims. Their MO was sexual, then strangulation via rope and tree and then he'd toss in a rural field or bury his victims and not in that order. I guess he said Mark Twain forest is where he buried them. Idk, no ones solved it yet. I mean if this person made this call early on, right after the abduction it's hard to believe it's not true considering they hadn't seen a van like it until the author posted pics of it. The police simply discounted her eye witness statement, but then it appears years later she may have actually seen this van there. Idk, unless she's lying about the split windshield? Maybe I'll reach out to her via FB and see if that's a possibility. I wonder if police had her statement in records and can look it up? I would be curious. Maybe I'll send them a screen shot and ask? What does the family have to loose at this point? I mean, maybe some closure would be nice.

Thanks for the thoughts, appreciate that people are still trying. Someone needs to.


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In the book "Urges" the author states that Larry also tossed women in rivers but I doubt he did in this instance (3W) even though south MO has rivers but they're very popular for canoeing. So I believe Larry would bury them, he's certainly experienced in grave digging, sadly.

And at this point, 25 yrs for gods sakes, I would not 'discount' an eye witness statement. The way I understand it, the LE had to 'piece together' that van model. That was Larry's hobby! He restored old vehicles with whatever parts he could find, he traveled around answering sale ads concerning MOPAR parts etc. LE really needs to dig deeper into that hobby. Larry was off looking for a car part (from an ad) when he came upon Jessica Roach all alone, walking her bike, on a dirt road. Convenient. And I do not think it was his first rodeo.

Exactly, what else has the family to lose. I know they did hire a private investigator but no idea as to what his results were.

 

[JJ007]

In the book "Urges" the author states that Larry also tossed women in rivers but I doubt he did in this instance (3W) even though south MO has rivers but they're very popular for canoeing. So I believe Larry would bury them, he's certainly experienced in grave digging, sadly.

And at this point, 25 yrs for gods sakes, I would not 'discount' an eye witness statement. The way I understand it, the LE had to 'piece together' that van model. That was Larry's hobby! He restored old vehicles with whatever parts he could find, he traveled around answering sale ads concerning MOPAR parts etc. LE really needs to dig deeper into that hobby. Larry was off looking for a car part (from an ad) when he came upon Jessica Roach all alone, walking her bike, on a dirt road. Convenient. And I do not think it was his first rodeo.

Exactly, what else has the family to lose. I know they did hire a private investigator but no idea as to what his results were.

Yeah. I've done a lot of research on Larry as well. I watched an old documentary the other day done by Paula Zahn called "Evil Twin." Most probably haven't seen it as you have to use a cable login via the discovery app. But, it's got some interesting details I hadn't read before. There was something about buried bodies in a park near a popular arrow head area. I guess the other twin said he saw a hand sticking out of the ground and knew Larry had done it (supposedly the day before or something). Just craziness. There is more out there and in the book. Lots of old eye witness and local lore about them online sporadically across the internet. Some just rumors, some true. It's hard to discern because so much of what could have happened is based on theories, recanted confessions, etc.


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[MooseMeMuch]

Yeah. I've done a lot of research on Larry as well. I watched an old documentary the other day done by Paula Zahn called "Evil Twin." Most probably haven't seen it as you have to use a cable login via the discovery app. But, it's got some interesting details I hadn't read before. There was something about buried bodies in a park near a popular arrow head area. I guess the other twin said he saw a hand sticking out of the ground and knew Larry had done it (supposedly the day before or something). Just craziness. There is more out there and in the book. Lots of old eye witness and local lore about them online sporadically across the internet. Some just rumors, some true. It's hard to discern because so much of what could have happened is based on theories, recanted confessions, etc.


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I searched for "Evil Twin" awhile back but came up with an empty sack, your explanation solves that mystery! dang

I read about 'the hand' somewhere on the internet or was it in "Urges".....sounds like there's something missing in that scenario. I thought Gary was 'the leader' of the two? Seems odd Gary wouldn't take the initiative and investigate a hand coming up for the ground. That's a pretty huge 'sighting'!

I wonder if Gary ever gave LE an approx location where they were searching that day? And I wonder if Gary has anymore stories to share, there was one about being at the Gettysburg filming (they played re-enactment extras) Gary brought his wife Diedre (sp?) and they rented a room but wouldn't let Larry stay. Larry went off in a huff in Gary's car, didn't return til morning, was scratched up, took a long shower. That's at least one occasion where Larry's whereabouts, during an extended road trip, were unaccounted for.

Wish I could watch that "Evil Twin". Was Gary interviewed for longer than a few second?

 

[JJ007]

I searched for "Evil Twin" awhile back but came up with an empty sack, your explanation solves that mystery! dang

I read about 'the hand' somewhere on the internet or was it in "Urges".....sounds like there's something missing in that scenario. I thought Gary was 'the leader' of the two? Seems odd Gary wouldn't take the initiative and investigate a hand coming up for the ground. That's a pretty huge 'sighting'!

I wonder if Gary ever gave LE an approx location where they were searching that day? And I wonder if Gary has anymore stories to share, there was one about being at the Gettysburg filming (they played re-enactment extras) Gary brought his wife Diedre (sp?) and they rented a room but wouldn't let Larry stay. Larry went off in a huff in Gary's car, didn't return til morning, was scratched up, took a long shower. That's at least one occasion where Larry's whereabouts, during an extended road trip, were unaccounted for.

Wish I could watch that "Evil Twin". Was Gary interviewed for longer than a few second?

I would think he'd spend some time with LE, but don't know. Supposedly he traveled with them to the prison to talk Larry into confessing more women's whereabouts, but apparently it ended badly. As for the show, if you go to Investigative Discovery (website or app), you can find the episode once you've linked your cable providers account. Season 3 episode 12.

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[MooseMeMuch]

I accidentally washed my copy of "Urges"......it was laying on my bedspread, scooped it all up. Pretty sure the latter 1/2 was notes of Larry's trial concerning Jessica Roach but still hurts.
Have you read "In With The Devil"? Also a very good read.

 

[wolfdogg]

The only thing I have ever found that may have had some bearing on Larry Hall was that about a month prior to the 3MW crime, there was a civil war reenactment in Butler, Mo. Battle of Butler....or something to that affect.

I wondered for a brief time period if he had been the area for that, as well as for some of the other civil war battle fields in Missouri. He was infatuated with the civil war, and loved travel and visit the sites, as well as participate in civil war reenactments.

Just food for thought. However, the M.O. for Hall's crimes doesn't fit the M.O. of the 3MW crime at all. He snatched people from parking lots, and streets/country roads. Don't think he ever took anyone out of their house. And, to the best of my knowledge, he only tried to abduct two people at once, one time.....but failed.

I've always wondered if there's some sort of public record on where these reenactments took place. They've always been thrown out as the reason Larry would be in town and he seemingly went to a lot of them, but I've never seen much on where/when these events took place. You mentioned Butler here. On a youtube video, there's a comment that there was a reenactment in Pleasant Hope, the same weekend the girls went missing. If the Pleasant Hope story is true, I cannot imagine it wasn't Larry, since he made it a habit to visit college towns for his victims, while out for these events. And if Pleasant Hope was where he was that weekend, it would make more sense that the victims were buried North of Springfield, instead of way out east in Mark Twain Forest. Just some thoughts..

 

[chestnut&bypass]

This may be of very little use, but I will offer it anyway:

My mom and dad grew up in Pleasant Hope, graduated there in '84, had me in '86, and we moved to Springfield in May or June '92. I was six. Anyway, I figured my mom would remember a civil war reenactment....she doesn't. However, I asked her if Pleasant Hope had a small paper....they didn't. That being said, all the little communities just north of Springfield typically had their news published in Bolivar's paper, The Bolivar Herald-Free Press. Their archives can be found at the Polk County Courthouse, according to their website: http://bolivarmonews.com/site/pages/faq.html

Obviously, this would require someone in the Springfield area to drive up to Bolivar to see if a reenactment can be found or not. I still live nearby, however....I'm an over the road truck driver with precious little time at home. The wife would likely not allow a time slot for me to go on this treasure hunt. Anyone else near enough want to give it a go? Is it worth the look to begin with? If nobody reports back as having been up there in the next few weeks, curiosity will force me to go anyway. That's all I have on that....hope it helps somehow.

 

[MooseMeMuch]

I've always wondered if there's some sort of public record on where these reenactments took place. They've always been thrown out as the reason Larry would be in town and he seemingly went to a lot of them, but I've never seen much on where/when these events took place. You mentioned Butler here. On a youtube video, there's a comment that there was a reenactment in Pleasant Hope, the same weekend the girls went missing. If the Pleasant Hope story is true, I cannot imagine it wasn't Larry, since he made it a habit to visit college towns for his victims, while out for these events. And if Pleasant Hope was where he was that weekend, it would make more sense that the victims were buried North of Springfield, instead of way out east in Mark Twain Forest. Just some thoughts..

Hey, Wolfdogg!

Yes, Pleasant Hope had a Civil War "skirmish" June 6-7, 1992. 20 miles north of Sprld.

http://cedarcroft.com/cw/5thmoinf/messenger/1992/92-01messenger.pdf

scroll down to p. 3 ...........Pleasant Hope is on the schedule. Was Larry there? 50/50

And, if I can read a map correctly, sections of Mark Twain Forrest are also North of Springfield? An online map showed Mark Twain Forrest spreading out all around Springfield, to include to the North.




1717 E. Delmar is not close to Kickapoo high school or Battlefield where Janelle lived.
1717 E. Delmar is considered midway across town, couple more blocks and they would have lived on the North side of town.

Recap: Pleasant Hope is @ 20 miles North of Springfield.
1717 E. Delmar was about midway and is not at all close to Kickapoo high school or Battlefield, MO. (where the girls partied that night). The Delmar house was much more accessible to the North-side of town

 

[MooseMeMuch]

This may be of very little use, but I will offer it anyway:

My mom and dad grew up in Pleasant Hope, graduated there in '84, had me in '86, and we moved to Springfield in May or June '92. I was six. Anyway, I figured my mom would remember a civil war reenactment....she doesn't. However, I asked her if Pleasant Hope had a small paper....they didn't. That being said, all the little communities just north of Springfield typically had their news published in Bolivar's paper, The Bolivar Herald-Free Press. Their archives can be found at the Polk County Courthouse, according to their website: http://bolivarmonews.com/site/pages/faq.html

Obviously, this would require someone in the Springfield area to drive up to Bolivar to see if a reenactment can be found or not. I still live nearby, however....I'm an over the road truck driver with precious little time at home. The wife would likely not allow a time slot for me to go on this treasure hunt. Anyone else near enough want to give it a go? Is it worth the look to begin with? If nobody reports back as having been up there in the next few weeks, curiosity will force me to go anyway. That's all I have on that....hope it helps somehow.

COOL Here's what a friend found on-line, the Re-enactment Schedule for '92 Scroll down to 3rd page. It is there! I've hunted and hunted for the historical significance of the Pleasant Hope 'skirmish'. Nothing except maybe it was somehow connected to a battle at Bolivar, MO.

Here goes!
http://cedarcroft.com/cw/5thmoinf/messenger/1992/92-01messenger.pdf

3rd page, about midway, left side.

 

[MooseMeMuch]

Found this at:

http://bolivarmonews.com/home/williams-marker-helps-honor-the-civil-war-th-missouri-state/article_3730826b-f9e3-58d2-a46e-04714148af06.html

"The 14th Militia fought for the Union throughout southwest Missouri and northwest Arkansas from early 1862 until it was disbanded on March 3, 1863. The militia fought in a major battle in the defense of Springfield, but otherwise took part in smaller SKIRMISHES (my emphasis) at places such as Neosho, Ozark, Cassville and Keetsville in Missouri."

Here is one skirmish and Pleasant Hope is mentioned.

http://buffaloreflex.com/heritage/a-nest-of-rebels-were-found-in-southern-dallas-county/article_9c435092-79a6-11e4-a807-0313d0529dde.html

Not a 'skirmish' but least P. Hope is mentioned. And 1862 and 1992 would/could be an anniversary of sorts so something might have taken place to commemorate the occasion.

 

[chestnut&bypass]

Interesting reading material, Moose....awesome!

:goodpost:

 

[MooseMeMuch]

Thank you, thank you :happydance:

Also, in "The 5th Missouri Messenger" and on Jan. 11, 1992 the published record of the 'minutes:
"Pleasant Hope, MO, June 6-7 present by Bud Marvin, 3rd MO Cav. Approved as sanctioned (Local) event."

Now could Larry and Gary have actually participated in the actual skirmish? I have zero knowledge of the Protocol for re-enactments and outsider participation. Anybody know???:thinking: