MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #10

[ThePhantom]

Taking a quick poll: How many are of the mind that Paynesville cases are connected with Jacob and Jared?
Who is of the opinion that Jacob and Jared are separate cases?
Likewise, who believes, Jacob, Jared and Paynesville cases are discrete events

My personal opinion is that the Paynesville cases may be separate from Jared and Jacob, though I'm reluctant to discount anything due to my suspicions about two monks in particular. Since Jared said that DR is not the perp for that crime, then the question becomes, was it a different perp who was responsible for both Jared and Jacob, or, totally separate cases.

Then there is Joshua. I always include him in the mix because it is odd to me that three events happened in one small radius.

There are other cases in MN that I also wonder about: Aaron Anderson who disappeared from his backyard in April 1989, just a few months after Jared was assaulted, and Christopher Kerze disappeared under weird circumstances in 1990.

Does the FBI look for patterns? If they find a pattern do they look for possible connections and then, do they interview or in some way track potential suspects? Or is the FBI more likely to base their decisions on concrete evidence alone and not pursue these possibilities.

As I've commented before, my state is loaded with sex offenders including pedophiles, and while we do have some missing persons cases, they are predominately female and largely grouped in the southern part of the state.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Taking a quick poll: How many are of the mind that Paynesville cases are connected with Jacob and Jared?
Who is of the opinion that Jacob and Jared are separate cases?
Likewise, who believes, Jacob, Jared and Paynesville cases are discrete events

My personal opinion is that the Paynesville cases may be separate from Jared and Jacob, though I'm reluctant to discount anything due to my suspicions about two monks in particular. Since Jared said that DR is not the perp for that crime, then the question becomes, was it a different perp who was responsible for both Jared and Jacob, or, totally separate cases.

Then there is Joshua. I always include him in the mix because it is odd to me that three events happened in one small radius.

There are other cases in MN that I also wonder about: Aaron Anderson who disappeared from his backyard in April 1989, just a few months after Jared was assaulted, and Christopher Kerze disappeared under weird circumstances in 1990.

Does the FBI look for patterns? If they find a pattern do they look for possible connections and then, do they interview or in some way track potential suspects? Or is the FBI more likely to base their decisions on concrete evidence alone and not pursue these possibilities.

As I've commented before, my state is loaded with sex offenders including pedophiles, and while we do have some missing persons cases, they are predominately female and largely grouped in the southern part of the state.

I think the Paynesville cases are not related to Jacob, and probably not related to Jared. I believe Jared and Jacob are likely not the same perpetrator, but possible. If they are the same perpetrator then I believe DR is innocent. I believe the Paynesville incidents were committed by one of Hart`s partners / victims. There are many to choose from.

 

[Sasquatch321]

Taking a quick poll: How many are of the mind that Paynesville cases are connected with Jacob and Jared?
Who is of the opinion that Jacob and Jared are separate cases?
Likewise, who believes, Jacob, Jared and Paynesville cases are discrete events

My personal opinion is that the Paynesville cases may be separate from Jared and Jacob, though I'm reluctant to discount anything due to my suspicions about two monks in particular. Since Jared said that DR is not the perp for that crime, then the question becomes, was it a different perp who was responsible for both Jared and Jacob, or, totally separate cases.

Then there is Joshua. I always include him in the mix because it is odd to me that three events happened in one small radius.

There are other cases in MN that I also wonder about: Aaron Anderson who disappeared from his backyard in April 1989, just a few months after Jared was assaulted, and Christopher Kerze disappeared under weird circumstances in 1990.

Does the FBI look for patterns? If they find a pattern do they look for possible connections and then, do they interview or in some way track potential suspects? Or is the FBI more likely to base their decisions on concrete evidence alone and not pursue these possibilities.

As I've commented before, my state is loaded with sex offenders including pedophiles, and while we do have some missing persons cases, they are predominately female and largely grouped in the southern part of the state.

Sheriff Sanner went on Nancy Grace on Cnn to announce their shift in the case. For this reason its hard to go outside the neighborhood of Jacob Wetterling. If nothing takes you out of the neighborhood, don't leave the neighborhood. LE has confiscated suspicious items from a mans farm within the neighborhood. It was LE that released the information of someone out running the night Josh disappeared.

 

[human]

I do not know how many actual Paynesville cases there are. One boy was approached a couple of times and the girl approached was a sister? Hm

The one camping is totally imagined, IMHO.

Jared and Jacob do not have the same perp, IMHO.

Where Josh fits in I do not know.

I was at the conference where Aaron Amderson's parents spoke.

The little one was a couple years old and the house was by the river. Nothing was ever found

At any rate, a two year old is a lot different than an 11 year old or college student

 

[shergal]

I think Jared's case and the Paynesville cases may be connected. I agree with ELOC that those two cases are somehow tied to DAH. I think Jacob was different, a crime of opportunity, and not related to any other cases. I think Josh's case was someone from SJU. Too much tampering with his computer afterwards, IMO. Too many coverups out there of everything. They've searched lakes, he did not "fall in."

 

[human]

Apparently the guy arrested for Jared was let go. What was that all about?

 

[kemo]

I have no idea if the perp who assaulted Jared is the same as the one who abducted Jacob. Anytime two similar crimes occur close together, the chance that they are related is high. With a high degree of certainty, we can say that DR was not involved in the Jared case.

If a vehicle was used in the Jacob case, then the two crimes are very similar. If one wasn't, then they are very different, and someone who lives near the crime scene would be an obvious suspect. I have argued, at nasium, that Law Enforcement has never "ruled out" the use of a car, only that after Kevin came forward, they were open to that possibility. What Kevin did was to create a "fork" in the investigation. Before, it was assumed that it was a perp from out of the area; either the guy who did Jared or someone else who used the same basic M O. Now, another avenue was opened, but the first avenue had not been closed. True, the other avenue had petered out, but it had not been a dead end. They never found the guy who did Jared or the Paynesville guy and there were apparently other similar cases that were never solved.

The real problem was that the rape of young boys was not considered that serious of a crime and investigations were handled at the local level and no attempt was made to identify suspects who were committing these crimes in multiple jurisdictions. Most "snatch and grab" child molesters were of low socioeconomic status with very limited social skills. If they continued to operate in the same area, they would usually get caught, The Paynesville guy was an exception. Others were able to get away with it for years by constantly changing jurisdictions. I suspect that was what the Jared guy did. Certainly the Jacob investigation involved trying to solve or link the many unsolved "snatch and grab" rapes of young boys in a very wide area around St Joseph. They probably looked at all convicted molesters as well. They may have linked some of the cases and possibly identified suspects in some of them but obviously some of them, including the Jared and the Paynesville crimes are still unsolved. As long as there was one or more guys committing snatch and grab rapes of young boys in the extended St Cloud area who remained unidentified, and no other suspect can be identified with absolute certainty, the case will remain unsolved.

If, as I suspect, the perp who abducted Jacob had been operating in the general area without problems. Something "went wrong" with Jacob and he ended up committing an unplanned murder. The perp then most likely curtailed his "activities" in the area and, after a suitable waiting period, left the area under some pretense or other. If he ever re-offended, it would be in a different state. This is a pretty typical pattern. If the perp was never identified as a suspect and is never implicated in a similar crime, he then would probably never be caught. (I've always wondered about the chance of a CODIS match with Jared's DNA). I still think the best chance of solving Jacob's case is discovering that someone who lived in the St Cloud area before 1990 later committed (or was a suspect) a "snatch and grab" abduction of a preadolescent boy in a different jurisdiction.

I'm not ruling out DR. If the Sheriff's dept got the dirt from a legal search, by all means they should hold on to it. You never know what forensic science will come up with. If the capacity to identify human DNA that has been burned and buried for years is developed,and none is found in that dirt, I do hope they would see fit to officially "clear" DR.

 

[nmogren]

I have no idea if the perp who assaulted Jared is the same as the one who abducted Jacob. Anytime two similar crimes occur close together, the chance that they are related is high. With a high degree of certainty, we can say that DR was not involved in the Jared case.

If a vehicle was used in the Jacob case, then the two crimes are very similar. If one wasn't, then they are very different, and someone who lives near the crime scene would be an obvious suspect. I have argued, at nasium, that Law Enforcement has never "ruled out" the use of a car, only that after Kevin came forward, they were open to that possibility. What Kevin did was to create a "fork" in the investigation. Before, it was assumed that it was a perp from out of the area; either the guy who did Jared or someone else who used the same basic M O. Now, another avenue was opened, but the first avenue had not been closed. True, the other avenue had petered out, but it had not been a dead end. They never found the guy who did Jared or the Paynesville guy and there were apparently other similar cases that were never solved.

The real problem was that the rape of young boys was not considered that serious of a crime and investigations were handled at the local level and no attempt was made to identify suspects who were committing these crimes in multiple jurisdictions. Most "snatch and grab" child molesters were of low socioeconomic status with very limited social skills. If they continued to operate in the same area, they would usually get caught, The Paynesville guy was an exception. Others were able to get away with it for years by constantly changing jurisdictions. I suspect that was what the Jared guy did. Certainly the Jacob investigation involved trying to solve or link the many unsolved "snatch and grab" rapes of young boys in a very wide area around St Joseph. They probably looked at all convicted molesters as well. They may have linked some of the cases and possibly identified suspects in some of them but obviously some of them, including the Jared and the Paynesville crimes are still unsolved. As long as there was one or more guys committing snatch and grab rapes of young boys in the extended St Cloud area who remained unidentified, and no other suspect can be identified with absolute certainty, the case will remain unsolved.

If, as I suspect, the perp who abducted Jacob had been operating in the general area without problems. Something "went wrong" with Jacob and he ended up committing an unplanned murder. The perp then most likely curtailed his "activities" in the area and, after a suitable waiting period, left the area under some pretense or other. If he ever re-offended, it would be in a different state. This is a pretty typical pattern. If the perp was never identified as a suspect and is never implicated in a similar crime, he then would probably never be caught. (I've always wondered about the chance of a CODIS match with Jared's DNA). I still think the best chance of solving Jacob's case is discovering that someone who lived in the St Cloud area before 1990 later committed (or was a suspect) a "snatch and grab" abduction of a preadolescent boy in a different jurisdiction.

I'm not ruling out DR. If the Sheriff's dept got the dirt from a legal search, by all means they should hold on to it. You never know what forensic science will come up with. If the capacity to identify human DNA that has been burned and buried for years is developed,and none is found in that dirt, I do hope they would see fit to officially "clear" DR.

To whom was the rape of a child not considered a serious crime? In 1989 I could not even imagine someone raping a child.

 

[ThePhantom]

I'm just struck with the number of rapes of young males in that area in addition to the disappearances.

 

[kemo]

To whom was the rape of a child not considered a serious crime? In 1989 I could not even imagine someone raping a child.

In the late 1970's, a kid I knew who was about Jacob's age was abducted, raped and released pretty much like Jared. They arrested the guy; he was AWOL from the Army and sleeping in his car. The local police just returned him to the MP's and told the kids parents that they were going to "let the army take care of it; he's their problem". Apparently he got 30 days in the stockade and a "Bad Conduct" type discharge with no record as a sex offender.

Today it would be far different. A lot has changed since those days.

 

[human]

I'm just struck with the number of rapes of young males in that area in addition to the disappearances.

What rapes beside Jared?

And of course the priests at the college, prep school and churches.

 

[nmogren]

In the late 1970's, a kid I knew who was about Jacob's age was abducted, raped and released pretty much like Jared. They arrested the guy; he was AWOL from the Army and sleeping in his car. The local police just returned him to the MP's and told the kids parents that they were going to "let the army take care of it; he's their problem". Apparently he got 30 days in the stockade and a "Bad Conduct" type discharge with no record as a sex offender.

Today it would be far different. A lot has changed since those days.

Right but that was a case where the person was military and it was left for them to prosecute him. I have never heard anyone say that raping young boys was not considered a serious crime back then. Never.

 

[kemo]

Right but that was a case where the person was military and it was left for them to prosecute him. I have never heard anyone say that raping young boys was not considered a serious crime back then. Never.

Actually, the rape did not occur on Base and, because he was AWOL, he was "not on duty". The only violation of the UCMJ that the guy violated involved going AWOL and some trouble he got in before that. The way the family understood it, the county could prosecute him and the the Army would then cut him loose. The reason they didn't do that was that it was "policy" to let the military deal with "Minor" crimes committed by Service Members.

The Family got the impression that the Police considered the perp a disgusting pervert but they didn't consider the kid as much of a "victim".

This was in a fairly large California city.

 

[human]

Actually, the rape did not occur on Base and, because he was AWOL, he was "not on duty". The only violation of the UCMJ that the guy violated involved going AWOL and some trouble he got in before that. The way the family understood it, the county could prosecute him and the the Army would then cut him loose. The reason they didn't do that was that it was "policy" to let the military deal with "Minor" crimes committed by Service Members.

The Family got the impression that the Police considered the perp a disgusting pervert but they didn't consider the kid as much of a "victim".

This was in a fairly large California city.

Have you followed to see if he has done anything else?

My one experience trying to get something re a Marine in CA back in the 90's was terrible. Theymprotect their own

 

[nmogren]

This still doesn't address that anyone thought that raping a child was no big deal. I don't think anyone ever felt that.

 

[ThePhantom]

Eh, I should have said "sexual assault" rather than rape.

It's just strange. There have certainly been those types of assaults in my neck of the woods throughout the years, but they are few and far between. Then, in addition having young men disappear (Guimond/Kerze/Edberg/).

It's several predators at work in the region, then. Is it just coincidence? Because it's definitely not a run of the mill kind of thing.

 

[human]

Edberg?

Kerze disappeared from Eagan. That is quite a ways from St. Joe.

His car was found in Grand Rapids which is really far away. 200'miles or so?

 

[Jbrown324320]

my response to the poll- different perps for all 4 situations. Paynesville assaults were at least one person. He probably bragged to a group of pedophiles on how easy it was and how he has been getting away with it (not being arrested). Per Charlie Grafft, they didn't arrest molesters "back then" because it would devastate the man's reputation in the community. Others heard how easy it was to do it and get away with it and moved closer to the area and tried it themselves. I too think the Paynesville assaults were DAH, Jared maybe RB Sr, Jacob (not sure) and Josh a monk.

 

[kemo]

Have you followed to see if he has done anything else?

My one experience trying to get something re a Marine in CA back in the 90's was terrible. Theymprotect their own

I heard the story long after it happened a they didn't mention ever hearing of the guy again.

 

[Jbrown324320]

I found this clip from the Reader's digest story "The Boy Who Never Came Home" written by Henry Hurt published in November 1999 about a call from someone from New York who said he was Jacob and he was still alive:

"Several years ago, she [Patty W] popped awake from a chilling dream at exactly 3:11 a.m., according to their bedside clock. In the dream, Patty was at a convention at a hotel. Suddenly Jacob walked up - a mature, handsome young man. "I don't remember the conversation, but I was to follow him into a private room so we could talk," Patty says. "We walked past a stranger who was talking on a pay phone, and somehow I knew that this man was Jacob's abductor. 'Turn around,' I said to him. I wanted to see his face." That's when Patty woke up - at 3:11 a.m.

The next day, Patty had lunch with Robert Lee, the executive director of the Jacob Wetterling Foundation, which she and Jerry created in 1990, to help families of missing children. "Patty casually told me about the dream," says Lee. "She's never put much stock in things like that, but this dream had been unusually vivid. And Patty mentioned that she had woken up at 3:11 in the morning." After lunch, the two went to the foundation office and were greeted by Alma Hansen, who is on the staff. "We had an unusual call on the answering machine last night," Alma said. She then played the message, in which a voice whispered: "This is Jacob Wetterling. I just want you to know I'm still alive." The call, traced to New York, had come in at 3:11 a.m."



This kind of gives credence to Jim R's theory and the story from that he was taken to New York to be pimped out by the mob. The kidnappers would find boys all over the midwest to recruit them to entrap rich gay men into getting into a relationship with them, then bribe the victim for money so they wouldn't expose their illegal "homosexuality" and ruin their careers. A famous entertainer, a congressman and an admiral were all victims. The article only says that most of the "chickens" were runaways or drug users who were "under the thumbs of their pushers and pimps." Few were willing to cooperate and sign statements from the police. The article indicates the police caught one guy with a 14 year old "runaway".

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...reyed_on_prominent_gay_men_in_the_1960s_.html