MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #7

[human]

I think they were blase about DR because his family was very well respected and he was a teacher.

People in MN just did not know about these things.

I was a teacher and when I was called by a friend that morning at work, I figured it was a kidnapping with a ransom. I had not been trained in child sexual abuse. It was not something that was out there at all. I did not know about kids being sexually abused.

After Jacob, I found out about this horrifying ugly world. And schools started teaching about keeping your body safe.

So to think an upstanding citizen was in any way involved probably did not enter into the equation,

 

[celticthyme]

Human, I really agree. We could not imagine something so foreign and unthinkable. Two events in life changed me forever, Jacob Wetterling and 9/11. Our previous paradigms did not apply any more. We were afraid to leave our children at the bus stop or even play outside unattended. Who could imagine airplanes as lethal weapons?
And of course, in regards to DR, hindsight gives the entire situation a whole new meaning.

 

[Trackergd]

It's possible an abduction was planned and then possibly foiled by the boys leaving the house. I don't know if I really feel that's what happened, but the possibility is there. There are so many scenarios with the vehicles, it's really hard to say whether one was involved or not. If a vehicle was used, maybe it was never in the Rassier driveway at all. I'm just stuck on Jacob's footprints abruptly ending in the driveway the way they did.

I keep wondering if an abduction was planned and the perp ended up with more boys than he expected and had to do a quick pick and choose. The fact he sent the other two packing is rather interesting as:

1. To someone trading in young boys, this would have been a gold mine, but may have been too many boys to control at one time.

2. He did not harm the other two boys to prevent them from running back and getting help. This was a huge risk unless he had a quick getaway in place.

3. Not harming the other two boys also speaks to him not being an outright murderer, possibly he kills his victims later, but he did not shoot the other two boys on the spot.

I get out of this that he may love kids (not in a good way), could not bring himself to harm one or more (other than his sick type of love) and is well organized and has a lack of fear of being caught.

Nothing in what I have read speaks to the perp being in any sort of panic.

The foot prints abruptly ending (if that is the case and they were not obliterated by vehicles, ATV's and horses) also indicates to me he was placed in a car that the other two boys in their overwhelming panic did not hear.

Curious about cars turning around in DR driveway. Wondering if the car pulled further down the road and out of sight of where boys might be walking and realized the house was not as far back as he thought and did a quick U turn hoping no one noticed, then pulled further up than he had planned changing the abduction scenario somewhat.

 

[human]

Tracker, the house is really far back. About 1/4 mile.

We have no idea where the footprints started or ended. We only have a pic from media.

We know LE keeps plenty to themselves.

There is really nowhere a car could park without being seen on that tiny tiny road.

 

[shergal]

Tracker, the house is really far back. About 1/4 mile.

We have no idea where the footprints started or ended. We only have a pic from media.

We know LE keeps plenty to themselves.

There is really nowhere a car could park without being seen on that tiny tiny road.

Jacob's footprint was right at the second pole (which is no longer there now) so about 40 ft. into the driveway. That's been documented in several media descriptions. (There's a slo a photo on here with Detective Steve Mund making casts of the footprint and you can see the end of the driveway nearest the road and fence behind him.

It is possible a car could have been back there on the road, although 40 ft. seems awfully close, because it was pitch black out that night, the moon didn't rise until after midnight. So the boys wouldn't have seen a car if it was already parked. As far as needing light when leaving, the abductor could have waited until he felt the boys had made it home before turning his lights on and driving away. (I have never been a fan of the car theory, but I do admit it is possible.)

It's also possible this could have been a relative or friend visiting DR who was just leaving and heard the boys going to Tom Thumb, so he figured they'd be back, and he saw this whole opportunity unfold in front of him. If he was someone who had made abduction attempts prior to this, then he would have had a mask and something that looked like a gun already on hand in his car.

That could be why DR can say with conviction he "didn't even know what was going on down at the mailbox." But he does know who was there earlier that day. (Just some thoughts.)

 

[cGorg]

Jacob's footprint was right at the second pole (which is no longer there now) so about 40 ft. into the driveway. That's been documented in several media descriptions. (There's a slo a photo on here with Detective Steve Mund making casts of the footprint and you can see the end of the driveway nearest the road and fence behind him.

It is possible a car could have been back there on the road, although 40 ft. seems awfully close, because it was pitch black out that night, the moon didn't rise until after midnight. So the boys wouldn't have seen a car if it was already parked. As far as needing light when leaving, the abductor could have waited until he felt the boys had made it home before turning his lights on and driving away. (I have never been a fan of the car theory, but I do admit it is possible.)

It's also possible this could have been a relative or friend visiting DR who was just leaving and heard the boys going to Tom Thumb, so he figured they'd be back, and he saw this whole opportunity unfold in front of him. If he was someone who had made abduction attempts prior to this, then he would have had a mask and something that looked like a gun already on hand in his car.

That could be why DR can say with conviction he "didn't even know what was going on down at the mailbox." But he does know who was there earlier that day. (Just some thoughts.)

shergal....not trying to be persnickity....but I think it was 40 YARDS or 120 feet. I remember this was established last year by ELOCsoul. Anyway, Jacob's footprints ended at the 2nd pole of 1989. It appears by looking at Google earth that the 1st + 2nd poles are now removed. Given the overcast sky and no moon at the time I think a car at that distance would not have been seen. My own little experiment of stopping my car in the countryside on a moonless night in the Fall of the year made that apparent to me. It's very difficult to see without any ambient light. Also, IMHO, I don't think the boys even saw the perp on the road and weren't aware of him until he told them to stop. It's easy to believe that the perp with Jacob in tow could have faded into the black quickly. The telling thing for me is they were walking east. As for the tire tracks and any other footprints I've concluded we'll never know until if/when LE releases any further info. Theoritically the car abduction scenario gives the perp the quickest exit w/ minimal evidence....the haunting thing for me is if DR took Jacob....then where?

 

[cGorg]

Jacob's footprint was right at the second pole (which is no longer there now) so about 40 ft. into the driveway. That's been documented in several media descriptions. (There's a slo a photo on here with Detective Steve Mund making casts of the footprint and you can see the end of the driveway nearest the road and fence behind him.

It is possible a car could have been back there on the road, although 40 ft. seems awfully close, because it was pitch black out that night, the moon didn't rise until after midnight. So the boys wouldn't have seen a car if it was already parked. As far as needing light when leaving, the abductor could have waited until he felt the boys had made it home before turning his lights on and driving away. (I have never been a fan of the car theory, but I do admit it is possible.)

It's also possible this could have been a relative or friend visiting DR who was just leaving and heard the boys going to Tom Thumb, so he figured they'd be back, and he saw this whole opportunity unfold in front of him. If he was someone who had made abduction attempts prior to this, then he would have had a mask and something that looked like a gun already on hand in his car.

That could be why DR can say with conviction he "didn't even know what was going on down at the mailbox." But he does know who was there earlier that day. (Just some thoughts.)

shergal....not trying to be persnickity....but I think it was 40 YARDS or 120 feet. I remember this was established last year by ELOCsoul. Anyway, Jacob's footprints ended at the 2nd pole of 1989. It appears by looking at Google earth that the 1st + 2nd poles are now removed. Given the overcast sky and no moon at the time I think a car at that distance would not have been seen. My own little experiment of stopping my car in the countryside on a moonless night in the Fall of the year made that apparent to me. It's very difficult to see without any ambient light. Also, IMHO, I don't think the boys even saw the perp on the road and weren't aware of him until he told them to stop. It's easy to believe that the perp with Jacob in tow could have faded into the black quickly. The telling thing for me is they were walking east. As for the tire tracks and any other footprints I've concluded we'll never know until if/when LE releases any further info. Theoritically the car abduction scenario gives the perp the quickest exit w/ minimal evidence....the haunting thing for me is if DR took Jacob....then where?

 

[cGorg]

sorry...tried editing my previous post and WS copied it again.

One other thought(I have no opinion on this, just a question): DR saw a mid-size tan car in the afternoon and a dark smaller car near the time of the abduction. That night he walked on the road up the hill to speak with Officer Bechtold. The next morning he drove his car on the road to go to work until LE told him to drive in the ditch. If he saw 2 cars wouldn't he be careful to stay off the road to not mess up the tracks? IDK...maybe he thought LE had already looked at them or maybe LE already drove over them. ???

 

[human]

Jacob's footprint was right at the second pole (which is no longer there now) so about 40 ft. into the driveway. That's been documented in several media descriptions. (There's a slo a photo on here with Detective Steve Mund making casts of the footprint and you can see the end of the driveway nearest the road and fence behind him.

It is possible a car could have been back there on the road, although 40 ft. seems awfully close, because it was pitch black out that night, the moon didn't rise until after midnight. So the boys wouldn't have seen a car if it was already parked. As far as needing light when leaving, the abductor could have waited until he felt the boys had made it home before turning his lights on and driving away. (I have never been a fan of the car theory, but I do admit it is possible.)

It's also possible this could have been a relative or friend visiting DR who was just leaving and heard the boys going to Tom Thumb, so he figured they'd be back, and he saw this whole opportunity unfold in front of him. If he was someone who had made abduction attempts prior to this, then he would have had a mask and something that looked like a gun already on hand in his car.

That could be why DR can say with conviction he "didn't even know what was going on down at the mailbox." But he does know who was there earlier that day. (Just some thoughts.)

my point about the footprint is that it is the only one WE know about, There could have been many more that were never revealed to the public.

As far as someone else visiting, it seems as if all tire prints are now accounted for. To me it eliminates the mysterious car speeding in the afternoon as those prints would be unidentified. And it eliminates the possibility of someone visiting by car.

Unless the perp had a flashlight, walking in the dark is incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

 

[shergal]

shergal....not trying to be persnickity....but I think it was 40 YARDS or 120 feet. I remember this was established last year by ELOCsoul. Anyway, Jacob's footprints ended at the 2nd pole of 1989. It appears by looking at Google earth that the 1st + 2nd poles are now removed. Given the overcast sky and no moon at the time I think a car at that distance would not have been seen. My own little experiment of stopping my car in the countryside on a moonless night in the Fall of the year made that apparent to me. It's very difficult to see without any ambient light. Also, IMHO, I don't think the boys even saw the perp on the road and weren't aware of him until he told them to stop. It's easy to believe that the perp with Jacob in tow could have faded into the black quickly. The telling thing for me is they were walking east. As for the tire tracks and any other footprints I've concluded we'll never know until if/when LE releases any further info. Theoritically the car abduction scenario gives the perp the quickest exit w/ minimal evidence....the haunting thing for me is if DR took Jacob....then where?

Thanks, cGorg, my mistake. 40 yards makes a lot more sense.

 

[cGorg]

Thanks, cGorg, my mistake. 40 yards makes a lot more sense.

no worries. it's hard to remember all of the details of this case....

 

[Mario V]

Are such persons simply trying to fill a void, or something missing, in their own lives? Are such persons so troubled themselves that they might be unable to maintain objectivity? Would such Persons, for example, resort to encrypted Torah codes to try to arrive at answers by some sort of dubious divination? Who are such Persons and why, despite their decades-long efforts, does the missing person’s case nevertheless remain unresolved?

What would happen if, instead, a person could set aside all emotion to begin to see with absolute clarity what they have yet to see? Imagine, what would happen then?

Would a tree-farmer’s daughter then spend her hospital lunch breaks across the street, past the two guards perched high on their posts, ardently pouring over old archives to find answers? Would a dairy land driver drive a little further to do the same?

Or would complete absence of emotion reduce interested persons to the same state of mind as the psychopath himself?

What price clarity? What price vision?

What kind of person will it take to explain this case?

...and once he arrived wouldn't he be surprised not expecting to hear that he was expected here?

..

 

[Mario V]

But if a car did go into the yard......there was never any mention of it in the media.....and that seems odd to me that there was no public plea for information about this car.

Hi ELOCsoul,

"Odd"? Gee, what would seem odd about that.. considering the way Minnesota LEOs handled this all the way on down the line? If this was my child they'd have much more serious problems at this point.

It's clear that for every good LEO who gave their all here there were at least two or more who dropped the ball for whatever reason. Way up here in twenty-fourteen, using past as predictor, it would be insane to keep expecting closure from Minn. LE here unless a few key elements change.

I'd say there is hope. Not everyone is constrained by the same rules, rights and technological resources as Asshat County and Minn. there. This has dragged, and could be a matter of how much decorum has to get wrecked before someone cries uncle.

I'm still sucking up info on these cases ~ awaiting some ordered materials. Hope in the future to bring something solid to the table, and more. Closure here may require the application of a more radical and forceful approach.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Hi ELOCsoul,

"Odd"? Gee, what would seem odd about that.. considering the way Minnesota LEOs handled this all the way on down the line? If this was my child they'd have much more serious problems at this point.

It's clear that for every good LEO who gave their all here there were at least two or more who dropped the ball for whatever reason. Way up here in twenty-fourteen, using past as predictor, it would be insane to keep expecting closure from Minn. LE here unless a few key elements change.

I'd say there is hope. Not everyone is constrained by the same rules, rights and technological resources as Asshat County and Minn. there. This has dragged, and could be a matter of how much decorum has to get wrecked before someone cries uncle.

I'm still sucking up info on these cases ~ awaiting some ordered materials. Hope in the future to bring something solid to the table, and more. Closure here may require the application of a more radical and forceful approach.

Aside from the officer by the dentist's office failing to report his encounter with Kevin, in what way(s) do you think that LE flubbed the case?

At one time I was fairly critical of LE's efforts, but the more I've read I think they did the best they could do. Others have suggested a cover up by Stearns County, but with the FBI presence there I really doubt it. I've read Al Garber's book - he was a competent agent and a no non-sense guy. If there had been a cover up, he would have "smelled" it IMO.

 

[ELOCsoul]

...and once he arrived wouldn't he be surprised not expecting to hear that he was expected here?

..

What do you mean by this statement? Please explain.


"a beast by any other name is still a beast"

 

[Mario V]

Aside from the officer by the dentist's office failing to report his encounter with Kevin, in what way(s) do you think that LE flubbed the case?

At one time I was fairly critical of LE's efforts, but the more I've read I think they did the best they could do. Others have suggested a cover up by Stearns County, but with the FBI presence there I really doubt it. I've read Al Garber's book - he was a competent agent and a no non-sense guy. If there had been a cover up, he would have "smelled" it IMO.

Hello again ELOCsoul,

I will offer a detailed list of what I can disclose when I am done with this element of my work re Wetterling. (Itself a side-detail to me.) While not my intent or concern, even a cursory list of the buttpokery involved on just the surface would read like a takedown of LE's collective efforts, regardless of the goodwill of their intent. I am still acquiring and weighting information, tho there are many readily apparent fails here. There are several more elements beyond the one missed opportunity to log the contact with Kevin and the subsequent waste you cite to be sure. We can talk about them at that time if you like.

~Re my post to our proverbial friend HaMossad here, that's a commiseration. Not everyone is happy about what they've done, whether for personal, evil reasons.. or to protect and survive.

If you have gifts you cannot pay back, they should be paid forward.

 

[Mario V]

Also you are right about the "A beast by any other name.." bit.. Damn.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Hello again ELOCsoul,

I will offer a detailed list of what I can disclose when I am done with this element of my work re Wetterling. (Itself a side-detail to me.) While not my intent or concern, even a cursory list of the buttpokery involved on just the surface would read like a takedown of LE's collective efforts, regardless of the goodwill of their intent. I am still acquiring and weighting information, tho there are many readily apparent fails here. There are several more elements beyond the one missed opportunity to log the contact with Kevin and the subsequent waste you cite to be sure. We can talk about them at that time if you like.

~Re my post to our proverbial friend HaMossad here, that's a commiseration. Not everyone is happy about what what they've done, whether for personal, evil reasons.. or to protect and survive.

If you have gifts you cannot pay back, they should be paid forward.

Thanks - we look forward to your input. How long have you been gathering?

 

[ELOCsoul]

For everyone's benefit - I found clarification on the location, distance, and travel time from the party the Wetterlings were at the night of Jacob's abduction. The party was in St. Augusta, a 15 mile / 20 minute drive back home.

It's been posted here that the party was up to 30 minutes away, in towns ranging from Clearwater to Avon and others.

This info was in an article 1 year after the abduction. The article was put together based on an interview with Jerry Wetterling

 

[Mario V]

Thanks - we look forward to your input. How long have you been gathering?

Here I have been sandbagging for about a year, just signed in about a week back.

Questions if you'd help:

1.) Where may I post Wetterling-related maps/images for future use by the forum members? (Declassified and or public domain) I have noted prior where other posters have taken pains to post images and they are removed. In studying various archival aerial images a few interesting things occurred to us here and while of two minds about disclosure I'm leaning toward potentially floating a few more thoughts here however I'd need to okay that with 3rd parties and am averse to leaking or otherwise telegraphing new direct information.

2.) Is there someone local to St. Cloud with photographic equipment? Nothing special required, we'd just like a few things closely photographed (from public roads/property of course) local to 16th Ave SE and will not be traveling there until mid-May when I will be traveling to Chicago.

3.) Can you help me determine who the realtor/developer was that built the homes to the North of Dale ST, East~West during 86-97 timeframe? (Timeliness of that detail would really help, I cannot say why but a window is closing this year on looking into this in any detail)

4.) Has anyone seen or heard of a van in the Wetterling's area during the time of these abductions? We know about the Chevette- Monte- and others, anything about an older long van? Perhaps beat up or otherwise indicative of an owner who worked in construction or landscaping trades?

5.) A silly one~ Why in blazes can't I load an avatar so I don't look so generic? Ha.

Thanks ELOCsoul!