MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #8

[Ifollowthis]

At some point I might find it important to resolve that question. However, for me, right now it is not an important detail. If Kevin was indeed at his girlfriend's mother's house when this went down then where that house is would matter more to me. And that is especially true if the boy's route took them down Minnesota Street east to Tom Thumb's. Then I'd want to know if they were visible from that house (the quote was that it was near Tom Thumbs, which appears to be in the opposite direction). Then I might wonder if his "visit" to Tom Thumbs occurred at a slightly different time than he stated. The description makes it sound like they rode right in front of the house.

If the other report about who was there is accurate, it sounds like the alibi for Kevin and his girlfriend is built around a circle of wagons involving their relatives. I wonder if there is something more to his alibi

~ svh

http://www.joybaker.com/?s=Kevin

Here is Joy's interview with Kevin, I could not remember where I read about Kevin, actually the back yard of his girlfriends house butts up to MN. Ave.

 

[Sigrun]

http://www.joybaker.com/?s=Kevin

Here is Joy's interview with Kevin, I could not remember where I read about Kevin, actually the back yard of his girlfriends house butts up to MN. Ave.

Wow, thanks. This is a must-read. Kevin places himself at the scene of the crime closer in time and space than anyone so far verified as such. He is the first responder. He and girlfriend are there alone. He claims his mother and her son and his wife were also at the house. I'm sure they will verify that in any case. But once again we have no names. So, he sees the police already going there from the front door, but manages to beat them there to the crime scene, in an open top car. He goes all the way up into the DR property before turning around, literally within minutes of the abduction. In fact, if he beat the police there, it was before the end of the 12 minute 911 call.

And we still don't get the street address of the house he was visiting, his girlfriend's mother's house. Given the orientation of this house, he could have seen the boys ride by within feet from the back yard (if they took that route, which seems reasonable).

I'm wondering about Minnesota Avenue and if that is the right street. But can't do much with this without names.

~ svh

 

[Ifollowthis]

Wow, thanks. This is a must-read. Kevin places himself at the scene of the crime closer in time and space than anyone so far verified as such. He is the first responder. He and girlfriend are there alone. He claims his mother and her son and his wife were also at the house. I'm sure they will verify that in any case. But once again we have no names. So, he sees the police already going there from the front door, but manages to beat them there to the crime scene, in an open top car. He goes all the way up into the DR property before turning around, literally within minutes of the abduction. In fact, if he beat the police there, it was before the end of the 12 minute 911 call.

And we still don't get the street address of the house he was visiting, his girlfriend's mother's house. Given the orientation of this house, he could have seen the boys ride by within feet from the back yard (if they took that route, which seems reasonable).

I'm wondering about Minnesota Avenue and if that is the right street. But can't do much with this without names.

~ svh

http://www.immelman.us/news/jacob-wetterling-rassier-search/

This may give you more information about Kevin.

 

[shergal]

Wow, thanks. This is a must-read. Kevin places himself at the scene of the crime closer in time and space than anyone so far verified as such. He is the first responder. He and girlfriend are there alone. He claims his mother and her son and his wife were also at the house. I'm sure they will verify that in any case. But once again we have no names. So, he sees the police already going there from the front door, but manages to beat them there to the crime scene, in an open top car. He goes all the way up into the DR property before turning around, literally within minutes of the abduction. In fact, if he beat the police there, it was before the end of the 12 minute 911 call.

And we still don't get the street address of the house he was visiting, his girlfriend's mother's house. Given the orientation of this house, he could have seen the boys ride by within feet from the back yard (if they took that route, which seems reasonable).

I'm wondering about Minnesota Avenue and if that is the right street. But can't do much with this without names.

~ svh

Ok, Minnesota Street runs West-East, it is the main street through St. Joe. Kevin was at his gf's mother's house and heard the info on the scanner (probably from the info the 911 operator was giving to LE?) and then he saw the cop cars race by. So he and his gf got in his gf's car, and I think it was HIS brother and brother's wife got in their truck, and they all followed the way the cops had gone. Which was east towards 95th Ave. (currently called 16th Ave.). They turned right onto 95th heading south. But the cops were too far ahead of them by then and they couldn't see the cop cars by then. (This was probably when Bechtold and the other LE were already at Wetterling's home.)

So Kevin started up 95th Ave., but didn't see anything, so when he got to DR's driveway, he decided to turn around and go back. Kevin says he thought DR's driveway was a road that went through and didn't know it was a private drive - but I find that hard to believe since he had lived in St. Joe a long time and knew about the party spot in the woods across the road (95th Ave.) from DR's driveway. (JMO)

Anyway back in 2004 Kevin said he turned around and told a cop what he had seen and the cop wasn't interested because he already knew about it. He also never mentioned back then having a gf with him or having her car. (Now, on Joy's blog, he says he drove all the way into the driveway and turned around and went to Tom Thumb and saw a guy who said he was a "medical cop" inside the store, and then when he left, he saw a cop car parked across the street at Cotton's dental office and he drove in there and told that cop what he had seen (the bikes) and the cop said he already knew about it. This was probably the cop who was waiting for Wetterlings to come home so he could escort them back to their house. In any case this cop never made any report about having talked to Kevin. He didn't even ask Kevin's name according to Kevin.

We don't have Kevin's last name because he does not want to be identified. His gf did not want to be involved in the story at all. So we don't have her mom's address either. (Although there are only about 5 homes on Minnesota Street with their back to the street.)

Jacob and the boys would not have ridden past the gf's mom's house. They went straight down 95th and turned right to go to Tom Thumb. (I'll put a map up at my photobucket site so you can see this all.) They would not have gone past the gf's home.

I don't recall Kevin saying his gf had an open topped car? I thought it was some sort of hard top? Catalina, maybe? I don't recall.

 

[human]

Yes, where did this open top car idea come from?????????

 

[Camille Grace]

This is from "Kevin's Story" on Joy Baker's blog, Mar. 14, 2013:

"Kevin and his girlfriend jump into her car (a mid-sized silver/tan Grand Prix with a removable t-top and/or vinyl roof)."

 

[Sigrun]

Ok, Minnesota Street runs West-East, it is the main street through St. Joe. Kevin was at his gf's mother's house and heard the info on the scanner (probably from the info the 911 operator was giving to LE?) and then he saw the cop cars race by. So he and his gf got in his gf's car, and I think it was HIS brother and brother's wife got in their truck, and they all followed the way the cops had gone. Which was east towards 95th Ave. (currently called 16th Ave.). They turned right onto 95th heading south. But the cops were too far ahead of them by then and they couldn't see the cop cars by then. (This was probably when Bechtold and the other LE were already at Wetterling's home.)

But wouldn't police already have been arriving at the crime scene after the police got to the Wetterling home? I can see a narrow window, maybe, where no one was there after the 911 call. He could have turned around in a brief lull of silence I suppose.

So Kevin started up 95th Ave., but didn't see anything, so when he got to DR's driveway, he decided to turn around and go back. Kevin says he thought DR's driveway was a road that went through and didn't know it was a private drive - but I find that hard to believe since he had lived in St. Joe a long time and knew about the party spot in the woods across the road (95th Ave.) from DR's driveway. (JMO)

This part puzzled me also. Like the police, he wouldn't have known right away exactly where the crime scene was. So, being in a car, I would think he would have stayed on pavement and turned around at the dead end, not down some dirt road before he could have really known he had exhausted whatever he was searching for. It was as if he terminated his search before he had searched, because by definition he didn't know exactly where the crime was. Now, his comment about not knowing where that road leads adds to my curiosity about why he chose that road. Not a big deal, but odd. And I guess I should add, it seems conspicuously coincidental that he happened to choose the crime scene as the place to turn around.

Anyway back in 2004 Kevin said he turned around and told a cop what he had seen and the cop wasn't interested because he already knew about it. He also never mentioned back then having a gf with him or having her car. (Now, on Joy's blog, he says he drove all the way into the driveway and turned around and went to Tom Thumb and saw a guy who said he was a "medical cop" inside the store, and then when he left, he saw a cop car parked across the street at Cotton's dental office and he drove in there and told that cop what he had seen (the bikes) and the cop said he already knew about it. This was probably the cop who was waiting for Wetterlings to come home so he could escort them back to their house. In any case this cop never made any report about having talked to Kevin. He didn't even ask Kevin's name according to Kevin.

Which leaves us only with Kevin's word about talking to anyone, correct?

We don't have Kevin's last name because he does not want to be identified. His gf did not want to be involved in the story at all. So we don't have her mom's address either. (Although there are only about 5 homes on Minnesota Street with their back to the street.)

Okay, I think I know where this is. That means that had they rode by there, yes he could have seen them. But you say not:
.

Jacob and the boys would not have ridden past the gf's mom's house. They went straight down 95th and turned right to go to Tom Thumb. (I'll put a map up at my photobucket site so you can see this all.) They would not have gone past the gf's home.

I'll look for the map, but without knowing where the house is we can't really judge how the route you suggest places them vis-a-vis the house, right? I had assumed they took the straightest route: all the way up to Minnesota and turned right?

I don't recall Kevin saying his gf had an open topped car? I thought it was some sort of hard top? Catalina, maybe? I don't recall.

Right, no, this was from Joy Baker, or at least she implied it. She refers to an open top (T-top) Grand Prix. She might have assumed it was his. If it was hers it makes it more interesting to me. But all that matters for this little part is what car went up the driveway, not really who owned it, imo. But thanks, it will become important later from my perspective.

I can't pretend to know why so much is being withheld in this case after 25 years. It may be that I conclude that there is still too much being withheld to do anything with the case, but I hope we can learn something. I guess what is leaving me uneasy about this name thing is why hasn't LE given half as much attention to this pair as DR, who is named? In other words, obviously LE is cooperating by keeping the names out of the press. Why?

~ svh

 

[Sigrun]

Yes, where did this open top car idea come from?????????

It was in Joy Baker's interview. This is the car that Kevin says he drove up that driveway.

~ svh

Correction: I realize now this may be a semantic point as well. When I say "open top" I'm being very generic. I don't mean convertible, just a car that can be opened at the top to allow a person to stand.

 

[shergal]

But wouldn't police already have been arriving at the crime scene after the police got to the Wetterling home? I can see a narrow window, maybe, where no one was there after the 911 call. He could have turned around in a brief lull of silence I suppose.



This part puzzled me also. Like the police, he wouldn't have known right away exactly where the crime scene was. So, being in a car, I would think he would have stayed on pavement and turned around at the dead end, not down some dirt road before he could have really known he had exhausted whatever he was searching for. It was as if he terminated his search before he had searched, because by definition he didn't know exactly where the crime was. Now, his comment about not knowing where that road leads adds to my curiosity about why he chose that road. Not a big deal, but odd. And I guess I should add, it seems conspicuously coincidental that he happened to choose the crime scene as the place to turn around.



Which leaves us only with Kevin's word about talking to anyone, correct?



Okay, I think I know where this is. That means that had they rode by there, yes he could have seen them. But you say not:
.


I'll look for the map, but without knowing where the house is we can't really judge how the route you suggest places them vis-a-vis the house, right? I had assumed they took the straightest route: all the way up to Minnesota and turned right?



Right, no, this was from Joy Baker, or at least she implied it. She refers to an open top (T-top) Grand Prix. She might have assumed it was his. If it was hers it makes it more interesting to me. But all that matters for this little part is what car went up the driveway, not really who owned it, imo. But thanks, it will become important later from my perspective.

I can't pretend to know why so much is being withheld in this case after 25 years. It may be that I conclude that there is still too much being withheld to do anything with the case, but I hope we can learn something. I guess what is leaving me uneasy about this name thing is why hasn't LE given half as much attention to this pair as DR, who is named? In other words, obviously LE is cooperating by keeping the names out of the press. Why?

~ svh

Wow, you are really good if you can do multiple quotes after only 25 posts! LOL. I still haven't mastered that, so I'll just reply down here.

1. It's been stated there were only 3 or 4 cops in St. Joe at that time. You'd think one would have waited by the bikes, but maybe two squad cars headed straight to Wetterlings to get more info from the boys on exact location, and the other cop waited by Tom Thumb/Cotton's office to escort them home. (Perhaps they didn't want Wetterlings stopping on the way home as they drove through the abduction area if they saw the bikes?)

2. Yes, it is a bit of a coincidence. And yes, we just have Kevin's word (and probably his gf's word also) that he talked to this cop. I've thought maybe the gf's dad was LE and that's why they had a police scanner going at their home? So maybe LE took Kevin's and the gf's word for it because her dad was LE? I have nothing but imagination to back this up. Just a thought I had. Otherwise I wouldn't think you'd leave your scanner going when you had company. But that's just MO.

3. I was thinking the boys would have gone straight down 95th and turned right on Minnesota Street and that the gf's home would have been further west on Minnesota Street, so you'd have to turn left to get to it. Therefore, Kevin would have seen the squad cars go by, but not the boys.

I guess it is odd that LE protected Kevin and the gf's name and not DR's. But then Kevin didn't have a scrapbook about Jacob's case either. And LE never released DR's name to the public until 2010 when they named him a POI after the search at his family farm. Since Kevin was officially "ruled out" (for whatever reason we don't know about) they wouldn't release his name.

 

[Sigrun]

Wow, you are really good if you can do multiple quotes after only 25 posts! LOL. I still haven't mastered that, so I'll just reply down here.

lol, thank you. I'm a geek.

1. It's been stated there were only 3 or 4 cops in St. Joe at that time. You'd think one would have waited by the bikes, but maybe two squad cars headed straight to Wetterlings to get more info from the boys on exact location, and the other cop waited by Tom Thumb/Cotton's office to escort them home. (Perhaps they didn't want Wetterlings stopping on the way home as they drove through the abduction area if they saw the bikes?)

I keep forgetting how small of a town this was. I can see that he might have had a few minutes after the 911 call to slip in and out.

2. Yes, it is a bit of a coincidence. And yes, we just have Kevin's word (and probably his gf's word also) that he talked to this cop. I've thought maybe the gf's dad was LE and that's why they had a police scanner going at their home? So maybe LE took Kevin's and the gf's word for it because her dad was LE? I have nothing but imagination to back this up. Just a thought I had. Otherwise I wouldn't think you'd leave your scanner going when you had company. But that's just MO.

This is exactly what I was thinking, with the variation that it was Kevin who was LE. But very interesting. I didn't realize the scanner was in the house. I thought it was portable.

3. I was thinking the boys would have gone straight down 95th and turned right on Minnesota Street and that the gf's home would have been further west on Minnesota Street, so you'd have to turn left to get to it. Therefore, Kevin would have seen the squad cars go by, but not the boys.

Right, I was thinking that also, but the quote I saw was that the home was near Tom Thumb's, so it might have been possible for Kevin et al to see the boys from the west. But without knowing exactly which house, I can't say for sure.

I guess it is odd that LE protected Kevin and the gf's name and not DR's. But then Kevin didn't have a scrapbook about Jacob's case either. And LE never released DR's name to the public until 2010 when they named him a POI after the search at his family farm. Since Kevin was officially "ruled out" (for whatever reason we don't know about) they wouldn't release his name.

I think I need to chew on that for awhile before I reply.

~ svh

 

[shergal]

For starters, "tlcya" posted a really great interactive map here on Jacob's forum (under SAR and Maps MN - Jacob Wetterling) in the very first post here (first link below) - see her second paragraph.

I have added some maps that I have made over time for WS using google maps (and adding yellow type to identify places), and also a couple images (marked maps 4 & 9) from news sources, at my photobucket link and also added them in a post at this pinned link, so future readers can find them:

tlcya's interactive map - and other SARS info:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Photobucket link:
http://s100.photobucket.com/user/shergal1/library/?sort=4&page=1

 

[ELOCsoul]

Thanks Sasquatch,

Its hard to say without seeing his other prints, but to me it suggests he was lifted either under his own power or under his own power and someone else's. If he was lifted off the ground at this point it might show this indentation without smudging of the print.

I saw the video but couldn't get a still image. It looked like the toe was pointing perpendicular to the driveway and I guess LE thought it was just a coincidence that the tire track was next to it (impressions made several minutes apart).

This print to me looks most likely to be a print of someone being lifted onto someone's back (vertical, not vertical and forward). As for the other prints, it depends on the distribution of weight. If the perpetrator's print was large and the perpetrator was a thin frame, it might not leave a print. This would suggest tall and thin, imo. Any print of the perpetrator at that point could have been erased by the tire track. But the absence of other prints is odd all the same and I couldn't see any in the video.

Do you know to which side of the road the toe is pointing?

The footprint is point to the south. You can tell because of the shadow in the print "crater" indicates the morning sun rising from the southeast.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Thank you so much for taking the time to format all that and post. I have so many questions!

I see the dogs must have arrived fairly soon. I'm wondering if we have a more exact time for their arrival? Also, and it may sound like a weird question, but does anyone know what time the first helicopter reached the vicinity of the Rassier property? I would guess it was somewhere between 100 and 1000 feet, but who knows? I'm also curious about the police searching along the wood pile. I wonder what made them go that way?

I've asked around about NG helicopters and I'm told it was likely what they called a UH-1 Huey. Seemingly irrelevant but I think it actually could be. Maybe a State police helicopter got there first, dunno.

I think based on the driveway alone, we've got two simplest choices: a conditioned runner or Kevin & Co. I think the runner requires one or two extra assumptions, but I think that can change when we look beyond the initial abduction moment. Still new to this case so please bear with me.

~ svh

btw, someone asked about where I heard that the scent went beyond the tracks. Apparently an LE person slipped this out in one of the news stories that was posted way back earlier in these threads, between parts 1 and 4. He said the tracks stopped and the scent went a little further, or words to that effect. This is still, imo, a crucial thing to verify. Was the dog circling (just means he was trying to reacquire the scent) or was it forward progression? Was it lateral to the driveway?

According to an article in the St. Cloud Times near the one year anniversary of the abduction, Sheriff Charlie Grafft recounts the events of that evening. He says the helicopter search began at 10:30pm and lasted until 3:00am. He himself was in the chopper, at least at the beginning.

The chopper was a State Patrol unit. I'm not sure where it was based out of, but that would be interesting to know, to support the information that the chopper could have been dispatched and arrived at the scene by 10:30pm.

The chopper was relatively close to the ground, remember it nearly hit power lines at one point. There were power lines lining the south side of the Rassier driveway. I have speculated previously that the chopper "wash" may have wiped away Jacob's scent after the footprints disappeared. His scent would have been lighter at that point, and more susceptible to dilution by high wind conditions.

 

[Marzipan]

I'm sure I remember Kevin being interviewed on TV news, but can't find a link. Can anyone confirm that and/or provide a link? Although we don't know his last name, I thought he was face to face with the reporter and not blurred out. I recall a yellow shirt, perhaps.

It's very satisfying to see all of the great sleuthing taking place. I don't know if it's progress, but it seems like it might be. At least lots of people are bringing what they can to the case. Hope you are all having a good holiday.

 

[human]

I really do not think the Hubers had anything to do with it. They would have odors to high heaven. No one has mentioned revolting smells.

 

[Sasquatch321]

I really do not think the Hubers had anything to do with it. They would have odors to high heaven. No one has mentioned revolting smells.

I think if the hubers had done it then DR would be dead as well. They take any scene in their presence hostage.

 

[Sigrun]

The footprint is point to the south. You can tell because of the shadow in the print "crater" indicates the morning sun rising from the southeast.

Thanks, this supports the vehicle narrative more than being picked up, imo. If lifted I think the driveway prints alone suggest it was onto someone's back, not from the front. This would lead the runner out into an empty field.

I would point out that as for odds-making, the feet appear to be pointing toward the vehicle and the vehicles track cuts right across the top of the toe. What are the chances this would happen randomly (impressions made several minutes apart vs. at roughly the same time?). I'd add that this is not just a footprint, but it is the last footprint indicating the boy was lifted. The odds of this being different impressions at different times seem long.

I've identified the house Kevin was at but because, at least for now, he is claiming that he "fears for his life" I won't name him or his girlfriend. I'm sure DR fears for his life, too, but oh well. But the gist of it is that yes, he could see Minnesota street and he could also see the street the boys rode up. This means that from the back yard of that house he could see the boys on their way to Tom Thumbs. All he'd need to deduce is what neighborhood they're from to stalk them, imo. "Kevin" is a local to that town and has been there a long time. It wouldn't surprise me if he recognized one or more of the boys.

Why would a mixed sex duo of such a young age (21 and 22) be involved in this I don't know, but right now I can't discriminate between DR and them as the most likely suspects. But so far, these two coming up on radar is based only on the crime scene evidence itself. There's a lot more for me to look at, so I'm not saying either is responsible yet, just going where the evidence takes me.

~ svh

 

[Sigrun]

According to an article in the St. Cloud Times near the one year anniversary of the abduction, Sheriff Charlie Grafft recounts the events of that evening. He says the helicopter search began at 10:30pm and lasted until 3:00am. He himself was in the chopper, at least at the beginning.

The chopper was a State Patrol unit. I'm not sure where it was based out of, but that would be interesting to know, to support the information that the chopper could have been dispatched and arrived at the scene by 10:30pm.

The chopper was relatively close to the ground, remember it nearly hit power lines at one point. There were power lines lining the south side of the Rassier driveway. I have speculated previously that the chopper "wash" may have wiped away Jacob's scent after the footprints disappeared. His scent would have been lighter at that point, and more susceptible to dilution by high wind conditions.

Thanks, this is the right timing. My dad says a helicopter at that altitude has a rotor wash and rotor slap that vibrates buildings and the ground. It is very loud, but it vibrates the ground also. If just above the tree line it would be very intimidating to a perpetrator. And if there were any search lights someone on the ground would usually see that right after they hear the rotor slap. His dog was barking by 10:30 and it would sound almost like a war zone outside, minus the gunfire.

From 10:30 to 11:23 is nearly an hour. And yes, it would be good to know when the dogs tracked JEW up the driveway. Given the pole arrangement, this timing is curious.

~ svh

 

[human]

What was DR doing durmg this conflagration of sound?

 

[Sigrun]

So, in summary, I'd like to give a name to "Kevin's" gf so we all know who we're talking about, even if just abstractly. In the spirit of "Kevin" I'll call her "Kelly". And I'll call the two of them K+K.

The problem is that I see more evidence in the driveway for K+K, but as soon as we move just a few minutes beyond the abduction I see some things stacking up against DR. I'm itching to mention it but without having cleared K+K I don't want to. There are already some psychological things going on with DR that have never been mentioned that I'd like to bring up. I also think that if DR was the perpetrator, I can reconstruct what most likely happened to the victim (including where some best evidence could be found). But all that is hypothetical until I can eliminate K+K. Because they've remained out of the spotlight, this is hard to do. Anyone have suggestions?

~ svh