MN - Philando Castile, 32, shot by police officer, 6 July 2016 #1

[animlzrule]

^^^These are all great points ^^^ and as horrified and heartbroken as I am about Dallas and Baton Rouge, I found myself reading about and refreshing my memory on the protests against brutality in the 70's. Because there are parallels to the issues then and now, but I think one major difference today is everyone is armed now which is perhaps a reason for the reflexes on the trigger? -To witness Philandro's death for a traffic stop is the metaphor for a much larger picture. Imo.

BBM: Yes, for civilians it is the lack of accountability of authority and recourse legally. And that is not a new theme either. For LE, what constitutes reasonable fear and justifiable lethal force? Some of the dialog I am hearing lately, that is most profound is coming from LE: Chief Flynn from Milwaukee in ABC's town hall, and Chief Brown's guidance and steadiness through Dallas are voices that put the humanity in law enforcement. We need more Chiefs like them. And is there a way LE can share these perspectives with young people that bridge the issues? I really think LE needs protection too, both physically and mentally. In the climate now how can anyone expect these men and women would be ok when the streets become a war zone with so many guns?

Here is one 2014 article I came across and point 7 stands out -
7 Reasons Police Brutality Is Not Going Away
http://mobile.businessinsider.com/7-underlying-reasons-for-police-brutality-2014-7

7. Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread.
Here's the real clincher. A Department of Justice study revealed that a whopping 84 percent of police officers report that they've seen colleagues use excessive force on civilians, and 61 percent admit they don't always report "even serious criminal violations that involve abuse of authority by fellow officers."
.

I'm not a huge fan of Flynn's, but I hear you. And yes, huge parallels to the 60s and 70s.A well armed public has also made for very fearful LE. The militarization of LE in combo with a populace flooded with guns is a recipe for disaster. People are now being killed as a result of being "open window" policed, profiling, and a very skittish police force.

 

[CCmakes3]

We had a guy killed by a police officer because the burglar was threatening with a pitchfork. I mean, come on. I could've deescalated that situation (nurses have good power of persuasion and manipulation ), or at the very least retreated till back up arrived. He was well known, and mentally ill. As usual, the officer was put on paid leave, and will undoubtably be cleared of all wrongdoing. Do I think he should face criminal charges? No. But, I don't think he should be a police officer, either.

BBM. Well, people have been killed by pitchforks.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96055

Maybe I'm a baby, but I'd be scared of someone wielding one at me. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they can't kill someone with a weapon. How does the officer know that the person isn't going to turn the pitchfork on an innocent bystander as he is waiting for back-up? And "back-up" just means more guns being pointed at this person. I think sometimes "back-up" can escalate a situation.

 

[animlzrule]

BBM. Well, people have been killed by pitchforks.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96055

Maybe I'm a baby, but I'd be scared of someone wielding one at me. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they can't kill someone with a weapon. How does the officer know that the person isn't going to turn the pitchfork on an innocent bystander as he is waiting for back-up? And "back-up" just means more guns being pointed at this person. I think sometimes "back-up" can escalate a situation.

Why no use of taser? Why did the cop not keep a safe distance, even if it meant running? Why no rubber bullets? Why no attempt to contact any of this man's careworkers? (As I said, he was well known in the community, and under the care of several organizations) In this particular instances, there were no bystanders, he was in a house by himself. This officer had many options available to him, yet, he took the easiest, and most deadly action. Of course people can be killed by pitchforks. Under a controlled situation with a police officer present?? Not likely.

 

[bluesneakers]

We had a guy killed by a police officer because the burglar was threatening with a pitchfork. I mean, come on. I could've deescalated that situation (nurses have good power of persuasion and manipulation ), or at the very least retreated till back up arrived. He was well known, and mentally ill. As usual, the officer was put on paid leave, and will undoubtably be cleared of all wrongdoing. Do I think he should face criminal charges? No. But, I don't think he should be a police officer, either.

A man in my city was killed while carrying two pairs of scissors and a man was shot in Dallas because he was holding a screwdriver (officers involved in both were cleared). In Houston a man was shot for holding a pen (not sure of that outcome). And just like you said - I've seen nurses and teachers deescalate similar situations without resorting to shooting anyone.

Where and when and how does this end?

 

[human]

I bet quite a few attorneys would take these cases pro-bono for the publicity they inevitably bring. But even if not, there's always a public defender. If you are innocent, a public defender can get you off/get charges dismissed and you can contact another lawyer later to sue.

You have to meet income guidelines.

 

[bluesneakers]

You have to meet income guidelines.

Will a public defender post bail for you?

 

[asac]

If we as a society, start 'OKAYING' people resisting arrest on a routine basis , the world will become a very chaotic, dangerous place. Once that becomes the norm, then everyone will fight cops, even if the arrest is warranted. And cops will just stop making many arrests and will shrug it off. Why should they put their physical safety on the line several times a day? They won't bother.

So petty crime will explode. Criminals will be emboldened if they know that no one will bother detaining them for robberies, assaults, etc etc. It will not be a pretty thing if this happens.

There are plenty of countries where resisting arrest is immensely unlikely to result in your death. And those countries have not descended into being chaotic and dangerous places. And everyone does not fight the cops. And cops have not stopped making arrests.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I'm not a huge fan of Flynn's, but I hear you. And yes, huge parallels to the 60s and 70s.A well armed public has also made for very fearful LE. The militarization of LE in combo with a populace flooded with guns is a recipe for disaster. People are now being killed as a result of being "open window" policed, profiling, and a very skittish police force.

I hear that too re: Flynn. Here's what I heard in ABC Town Hall that I thought were some honest perspectives from several viewpoints. Flynn totally blew the "crime is down in America" political stats citing some real stats in inner cities, he stated that black lives matter all the time to a police force, and stated does anyone have any idea what the sight of people marching in protest with AR-15s and assault weapons (in Dallas) does to a police force? So, from his perspective he really illustrated the front line of LE. -And he was impassioned and/or maybe exasperated, too.

There was also a very lovely soft spoken young man from BLM who was the embodiment of a young black man in America searching for reasons and answers in a completely peaceful way. And the powerhouses were the Mom's who had the courage to attend and speak in the midst of raw grief. I came away feeling like all sides have really seen it all. While the last couple of weeks have been so tragic beyond words, I feel like there is light among people expressed last week which gave me great hope... No, there's no easy answer or fix, but I'd sure like to see more town halls because it brought all sides together with the structure of moderation, and the President, too, and voices were heard. all imo...

 

[Trino]

How to spend a million dollars: St. Paul protests

http://www.twincities.com/2016/07/1...-paul-police-reopen-summit-avenue-to-traffic/

 

[KaaBoom]

So what should police do if someone resists arrest, if they are not to use force? .

One thing they should never do, is use lethal force to try and effect an arrest. They have powers to arrest, they do not have powers to execute as suspect on the spot.

If one believes that one is being unjustly arrested, better to "resist arrest" by going to the station and requesting a lawyer rather than physically fighting with an armed officer. I don't care how wrong I think the officer is, I want to make it home to my children. If these people are just like you and me and honestly innocent of any wrong-doing, I don't understand why they don't think of their beloved family members. I personally would get much more satisfaction from taking legal action for a false arrest than I would from dying in the street from a gunshot wound and looking down from heaven at my bereaved family and people rioting in the street in my name.

I don't understand why you don’t think of the beloved family members of the innocent people who are being killed by these trigger happy cops. Why don’t you think of Philando’s girl friend and baby who witnessed him being murdered by this cop for no good reason? I guess you think only LE families are important. The cops sign up for the job. They should understand what they are getting into. The innocent motorist who is just trying to drive home safely without getting shot by a trigger happy cop, hasn’t agreed to anything. So my concern will always be with the innocent victims of police violence. If the cops don’t like that, then they can find other work.

 

[KaaBoom]

There are a few different ways an officer could look at a minor traffic stop when things start to go a bit different than a typical stop. If the suspect acts in any way that they perceive as a threat to an officer, they can shoot the suspect to end the threat. I think that most people here would agree that this would be the safest choice for the officer, but that it’s totally unacceptable. The second would be that officers are not allowed to shoot for almost any reason because this might endanger the suspect or the public. Again I think that most people would find this unreasonable and unacceptable. That leaves us with deciding what level of threat is proper and reasonable to take a life. For my part, I feel that the threat needs to be real and not perceived even though this would be more dangerous for the officer. They were hired to do a very dangerous job that puts them in harm’s way daily. Much like a firefighter takes a level of risk when he/she is required to enter a burning building and they are not allowed say they want to sit this one out because it looks too dangerous. So to a police officer should not be allowed to end a "perceived" threat by simply killing the suspect. I think it's up to us as citizens to decide what level that threat needs to rise to before an officer is allowed to use deadly force. So far that decision seems like it was up to the police to decide and in this day and age with video evidence I’m not sure that is acceptable anymore. Some might disagree with me.
With that said, I could never do the job that the police do and I respect them greatly. That’s does not mean that I’m not allowed to ask questions or hold them accountable. JMO

Can you imagine what it would be like if firefighters acted like cops? Sorry everybody, we know that your family members are burning to death in that building right now. We would love to go in there and rescue them, but the building is totally unsafe to go into right now. We would be in fear for our lives if we went in there. We hope you all understand that we have to get home safe to our families.

Firefighters would be fired for cowardice like that, but for cops it’s perfectly acceptable. :facepalm:

 

[KaaBoom]

How to spend a million dollars: St. Paul protests

http://www.twincities.com/2016/07/1...-paul-police-reopen-summit-avenue-to-traffic/

It’s a small amount compared to the billions of dollars that police pay out every year for wrongful death lawsuits and injuries at the hands of LEOs.

 

[human]

It’s a small amount compared to the billions of dollars that police pay out every year for wrongful death lawsuits and injuries at the hands of LEOs.

http://bringmethenews.com/2015/09/3...e-to-vikings-game-to-cost-minneapolis-237000/

 

[human]

Can't find the cost for the Repub convention in MN in the past, but here is Cleveland

http://www.cleveland.com/rnc-2016/index.ssf/2015/04/the_2016_republican_national_c.html

 

[katydid23]

Who wants to OK resisting arrest? Do you have a post to quote? A recent article? If not, a little sensational infomercial for me.

A few people said that offenders should fight the battle in court, as opposed to fighting the officers by resisting arrest. In reply to that suggestion , someone said that lawyers were expensive, and that made it hard to fight arrests in court.

So I took that as someone implying that 'yes, indeed, it is better to resist arrest than to try and fight it later on in court.' Maybe I misunderstood the point but it seemed like that was the inference.

 

[KaaBoom]

http://bringmethenews.com/2015/09/3...e-to-vikings-game-to-cost-minneapolis-237000/

On that subject Minneapolis just gave a billions dollars of corporate welfare to the Vikings to build their new stadium. One billion dollars of tax payer money to a billionaire sports team owner = good deal. One millions dollars of tax payer money (not requested) for BLM protests = the end of the world, :crying::crying::crying:

 

[katydid23]

There are plenty of countries where resisting arrest is immensely unlikely to result in your death. And those countries have not descended into being chaotic and dangerous places. And everyone does not fight the cops. And cops have not stopped making arrests.

Resisting arrest should not result in the death of the suspect. UNLESS the suspect is resisting arrest by trying to take the cop's weapon or pulling their own weapon or taking a hostage. In those circumstances, they might die. And I do not blame the officer's in those dangerous situations.

 

[KaaBoom]

Resisting arrest should not result in the death of the suspect. UNLESS the suspect is resisting arrest by trying to take the cop's weapon or pulling their own weapon or taking a hostage. In those circumstances, they might die. And I do not blame the officer's in those dangerous situations.

Philando was not trying to take the cops weapon, and he was not trying to take hostages. But the cop still executed him anyway. .

 

[Woodland]

A few people said that offenders should fight the battle in court, as opposed to fighting the officers by resisting arrest. In reply to that suggestion , someone said that lawyers were expensive, and that made it hard to fight arrests in court.

So I took that as someone implying that 'yes, indeed, it is better to resist arrest than to try and fight it later on in court.' Maybe I misunderstood the point but it seemed like that was the inference.

Imo an inference was imposed that is not there.

This sandbox is working well so far.

 

[RANCH]

A few people said that offenders should fight the battle in court, as opposed to fighting the officers by resisting arrest. In reply to that suggestion , someone said that lawyers were expensive, and that made it hard to fight arrests in court.

So I took that as someone implying that 'yes, indeed, it is better to resist arrest than to try and fight it later on in court.' Maybe I misunderstood the point but it seemed like that was the inference.

It appears that some feel that resisting arrest is justified because of the high cost of the justice system. I don't see resisting arrest as being a good way to avoid those costs. Rarely does the suspect get away and the increased charges makes things worse. JMO