MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #13

[bwt42]

Well again, I didn't say anyway that I believe anything happened. Just what is possible.
And I wouldn't say at all that it doesn't make any sense. That could explain the pause between flurry of shots. It is quite conceivable in my mind that a second flurry of shots is going to hit a different portion of a moving target especially if we are considering OW's alleged eye injury. It also matches up perfectly with EYE witness accounts .. "MB was running away, hit with a shot which jerked his body, then he turned around, allegedly put his hands up, and ate a few more bullets"
It is quite possible things happened this way. Again, I am not saying it did happen that way, just that it could have.

Since it was first reported, I've had trouble visualizing how a shot to an arm as MB was running away from OW would "jerk" his body. I guess its possible.

 

[TheDuchess]

SBM

I'm not sure what you want me to ask myself. Are you asking why I think there's room for doubt or why I'd like to see more evidence?

Both. Either. Neither. My ETA explained I wasn't necessarily speaking directly to you but to the populace that is demanding more evidence that OW is innocent.

My question is really quite simple. When are those so adamant about expecting so much more proof to believe that OW might just be innocent and when are they going to start asking those who fed us the completely preposterous story that they have given us???

Shooting a 6 ft 3 in 300 lb guy who just strong arm robbed a convenient store and assaulted a police officer with proof that he touched the officers gun? Believable - one would expect of course that all evidence be brought to the GJ and ultimately corroborate officers story.

A clean as a whistle police officer gunning down a sweet innocent gentle giant in broad daylight who was begging for mercy with his hands in the air - NOT believable, in fact outrageous enough to incite riots in the streets. Why aren't you expecting these people of have fed us this story to provide more proof before you would even entertain that it could possibly be true.

<modsnip>

 

[LambChop]

I stand by my theory that MB could have been falling. And someone doesn't have to have their hands up to be surrendering. Also, are you suggesting that an officer should shoot a suspect in the heart (which is what I assume you mean by "left side") if they are trying to surrender with their hands up? I thought that officers were supposed to stop shooting if someone was surrendering. Genuine questions. Please don't take offense.

I was asking the question. If witnesses are saying MB was shot while surrendering with his hands up and not rushing forward towards OW, the officer had a perfect shot at the center of MB's body which would stop him but almost all shots were to the extreme right arm area. That is the question I was asking. I hope that is clear, no offense and not debating just posing a question. I do not debate, I just ask some questions.

All your views are important to understand what could have happened.

 

[K_Z]

It's their son that was shot to death, and you don't think they have the right to the autopsy results? Why on Earth not?

That's not what I said.

Please note my last sentence in the quoted post. They don't have the right to have the information whenever they want it. They will have access to it at the proper time. The investigation is not complete, and the GJ is hearing evidence. They will have access to the autopsy #1 when that process is complete, if no indictment comes down. If an indictment comes down, they may not have access for many months-- idk, it depends on when the report can be released.

The family is not "the defense". They don't have to prepare anything for "trial".

But IMO, the Brown family will soon begin using this as another public persuasion technique-- "They won't even give us the autopsy!"

 

[CoolJ]

Since it was first reported, I've had trouble visualizing how a shot to an arm as MB was running away from OW would "jerk" his body. I guess its possible.

Don't know how to answer that. Truth is I don't know, never been shot, never seen anyone shot. Just an assumption on my part that if you get shot anywhere in your body it is going to jerk you a little bit isn't it? I have been hit with a line drive baseball to the shoulder and that jerked me for sure... A bullet would do the same , no?

 

[CoolJ]

I was asking the question. If witnesses are saying MB was shot while surrendering with his hands up and not rushing forward towards OW, the officer had a perfect shot at the center of MB's body which would stop him but almost all shots were to the extreme right arm area. That is the question I was asking. I hope that is clear, no offense and not debating just posing a question. I do not debate, I just ask some questions.

All your views are important to understand what could have happened.

Lambchop, I get what you are saying, but that would only be true if OW was a perfect shot. Let's remember he missed with several shots as well. And again, LE is trained to shoot center mass. He was not aiming for the arms.

 

[cady]

Since it was first reported, I've had trouble visualizing how a shot to an arm as MB was running away from OW would "jerk" his body. I guess its possible.

JMO If a person were shot by a pea-shooter they would probably twitch or jerk as they felt the sting...I would, anyway. Heck, I'd jerk if a bird pooped on me! I can't imagine there NOT being a reaction to a bullet graze....as the nerves are affected. (JMO I think that witnesses THOUGHT that MB was shot in the back, because he was being SHOT AT from behind. When he jerked or twitched, they thought he had been hit. That doesn't make them LIARS). JUST MY OPINION

 

[Elley Mae]

When someone is running/moving quickly towards you where are their arms?

 

[CoolJ]

I am confused about why folks are having a hard time accepting that there are different possibilities as to how this went down. For sure, I get how what we know can lead you in one direction or another, but to completely disregard anything but that which supports this as a justifiable kill is mind boggling to me. It is as though people do not want to believe it possible that LE can and do overstep there boundaries. Happens ALL THE TIME. Sometimes it is just a LEO stretching the boundaries, and sometimes it is with complete malicious intent, but folks it does happen and IMO it happens too much, we need to completely trust LE 100%, yes they have a terribly tough job! but we need to be able to trust them.

 

[CoolJ]

When someone is running/moving quickly towards you where are their arms?

Could be dozens or even hundreds of variations, that is the point. We can't tell in this case.

 

[bwt42]

Being shot in the front while surrendering would be almost as bad, IMO, as being shot in the back while surrendering. MB turning around, in itself, does not justify getting shot. Even if he was "taunting" the officer, it would not justify getting shot. If he was actually attacking, or coming toward OW to attack, that would be a different matter, IMO. But the "charging" is merely an allegation and not proven at this point.

I have not accepted the charging story. I see a real deference in opinion between supporters of OW & his detractors & the undecided on what MB could have done to avoid being shot after he turned around. I don't know what MB did or how far he was from OW. Therefore, I don't think by not accepting the charging story means it could not be a justifiable shooting.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Please clarify. You said you would rather use the term "probable" instead of possible. Probable is "more likely" than possible is it not?
I think it is my views that have been misconstrued on here.
I had spent days in here trying to get people to understand something. Those people used Dr. Badens comments to discredit me. Now that Dr. Baden has clarified his comments to agree with what I was saying all along, all of a sudden Dr. Baden can no longer be considered a credible source. Does anyone else not see what is happening here?

Understanding your position? I do. Do I understand how you got to yours? I do

I just do not share your opinion.

And That's okay. we can all have our own opinions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jmcgladr]

That's not what I said.

Please note my last sentence in the quoted post. They don't have the right to have the information whenever they want it. They will have access to it at the proper time. The investigation is not complete, and the GJ is hearing evidence. They will have access to the autopsy #1 when that process is complete, if no indictment comes down. If an indictment comes down, they may not have access for many months-- idk, it depends on when the report can be released.

The family is not "the defense". They don't have to prepare anything for "trial".

But IMO, the Brown family will soon begin using this as another public persuasion technique-- "They won't even give us the autopsy!"

I understand that the family is not "the defense" and I didn't say they were. That's why I mentioned the family and the defense separately. But especially given that the family is NOT the defense OR the prosecution at this point, why could they not have all the information regarding the death of their son? Is that not their right as parents?

 

[Oceans]

I think there are witnesses, who were very close to the action, that have not done any media or gone public. And I think the reason we have not seen them is that they have told the FBI that they saw MB blindside OW and punch him in the face. I don't think these witnesses would speak publicly out of fear of retribution. But a grand jury will hear from them, but perhaps their names will be redacted.

The witnesses who went to lits of media may have been pandering to the public. Maybe some of them really didnt see much, but they feel it is their civic duty to help the grieving mother, and tell us all about the 'hands up-dont shoot' story. jmo

Furthermore, potential witnesses are asked by LE/FBI to NOT talk to the media until AFTER a possible trial. JMO.

 

[Starry Night]

"Hip-Hop Moves as Strong Force for Michael Brown"

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/hip-hop-moves-strong-force-michael-brown-25178532


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl4gG5MorBg

 

[Clar]

Hey Guys,
I&#8217;m trying to sort of compile some facts in the shooting, a little exercise, trying to cite more than one type of source as it seems the issue is mired in bias, avoiding any IF&#8217;s on purpose as that would involve me injecting any theories I have. I also want to forewarn people, that I do not have firsthand knowledge of the events that occurred, so essentially even this stuff, while cited, its IMO or rather IMC (In Media Claims)

OW was originally from a very troubled police department in Jennings, which was a majority black population (89%)

OW himself has had no controversy until now, he had actually been commended after subduing a man whom was involved in a drug transaction, which makes his actions make less sense based on the narrative we&#8217;ve heard from some parties.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/darren-wilsons-first-job-was-on-a-troubled-police-force-disbanded-by-authorities/2014/08/23/1ac796f0-2a45-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

MB had recently stolen a box of cigars at approx. 11:52 am at a local QuikTrip, he had been willing to physically confront people based on what is witnessed in the video. I would like to also point out that while proving to use physical force (shoving the shopkeeper) he also used intimidation, which was his typical means of resolving conflict according to his friends and family.
http://www.thestar.com/news/2014/08/15/police_michael_brown_shot_after_store_robbery.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/15/ferguson-police-say-michael-brown-fit-description-strong-arm-robbery-suspect/

MB had drugs in his system (marijuana), but no Criminal record.
http://newsone.com/3047840/mike-brown-shooting-facts/

MB was legally an adult, and 6ft4 292lbs
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/08/michael-brown-too-burly-for-the-new-york-times.php

MB and DJ encounter OW on the street
http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/michael-brown-shooting-site/view/?service=0

The Yellow circle is the area the events transpired within approximately.

At some point OW sustains facial injuries
http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/22/did-ferguson-cop-darren-wilson-suffer-br

OW fires approximately 10 shots, in 2 volleys based on an audio recording at 12:02pm (noon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiL-E5WAaUU
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/audio-gunshots-taken-time-michael-brown-shooting-glide-n191371

MB was hit 6 times and killed
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

The Red circles identify the GSW's

Second Officer arrives on the scene at 12:04 shortly during that same time a supervisor arrives and a local ambulance who was answering a local sick call arrives and declares MB dead
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/michael-brown-ferguson-missouri-timeline/14051827/

<<Time for some IMO>>
I have intentionally avoided using any reference to DJ whom has been proven to at the very least not be a credible witness, if not an outright liar, such as his claim he met up with MB <<after>> the convenience store incident.
I also call into question the details regarding the OW vs MB confrontation (the physical portion) as the grappling doesn&#8217;t make a lick of sense to me, I keep thinking how high up OW must have to be in his SUV to grab a 6ft4 persons neck with one hand and get any kind of leverage.
http://gawker.com/ferguson-police-michael-brown-suspected-in-convenience-1622168198

I also believe that OW&#8217;s first volley does graze MB with most likely the last shot, listening to the above linked audio, the second volley, which is likely the one that kills MB seems to be missing one of the gunshots that were revealed on the autopsy. I would suspect it was the second lowest gunshot, judging by the trajectory needed to cause that type of lesion (a tearing wound, some might call it a &#8220;flesh wound&#8221
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/gunshot-injuries

Following at the end of this exercise I then tried to formulate a theory,
again I've tried to exclude many IF's such as "If there is a conspiracy by ANY party involved, or IF the audio recording is not genuine"

OW Wilson is seeing 2 people in the middle of the street and calls upon them to &#8220;Get the hell out of the street.&#8221; There isn&#8217;t any compliance with this. OW comes closer and tells them to do so a second time, possibly with an F-Bomb.

Now in close distance OW&#8217;s radio mentions the robbery call, MB and DJ are close enough to OW to hear this and both get scared, Fight or Flight time.

MB reaches for and strikes OW, ringing his bell pretty good based on the facial swelling.

DJ runs for it,

MB convinced he has taken the fight out of OW begins to leave as well.

OW regains his senses, exits the SUV and fires the first volley of shots, grazes MB with one.

MB turns around and says &#8220;stop shooting me.&#8221; still standing, seeing OW is probably still a bit punch drunk, he chooses to fight rather than flight a second time, he charges OW who has not lowered his weapon this entire time and has been aiming.

OW fires a second volley of 5 shots, each shot hitting MB, who whilst charging would have likely had his arms up in a attempt to grapple OW if he had reached him.

The last gunshot hits MB in the head, ending his life.

 

[cady]

Could be dozens or even hundreds of variations, that is the point. We can't tell in this case.

And same goes for arm positions when running AWAY. Running is running. JMO

 

[bwt42]

JMO If a person were shot by a pea-shooter they would probably twitch or jerk as they felt the sting...I would, anyway. Heck, I'd jerk if a bird pooped on me! I can't imagine there NOT being a reaction to a bullet graze....as the nerves are affected. (JMO I think that witnesses THOUGHT that MB was shot in the back, because he was being SHOT AT from behind. When he jerked or twitched, they thought he had been hit. That doesn't make them LIARS). JUST MY OPINION

You may be right. I was picturing someone runing with I assume his arrms swinging & jerking when his arm was hit.

 

[TheDuchess]

The myths of Ferguson:
1.) Michael Brown was an innocent teenaged "gentle giant" walking down the street minding his own business
FALSE - MB had just committed a strong armed robbery just 10 minutes prior and was walking down the center of the street with stolen goods
2.) Michael Brown was shot in the back
FALSE - MB was never shot in the back and there is a slight possibility that one of the 6 shots that hit him came from behind but highly unlikely given all the others were from the front (incidentally it wasn't the fatal shot and the case rests on whether the fatal shot was justified, not ones that did not kill him
3.) OW is a bloodthirsty racist cop who was just itching to gun down a black kid in the street
FALSE - OW has a perfectly clean 6 year record without even one single complaint filed against him
4.) Michael Brown was "unarmed"
Technically TRUE with the HUGE caviat that he was at least at one point very close to gaining access to OWs gun
5.) OW tried pulling MB into the squad car
FALSE - well...I mean I don't have proof its false other than it being absolutely ridiculous
6.) There is a war on black teens
Possibly true but IRRELEVANT to this case

The original narrative, while a grandiose sculpture of epic proportions, its volatile and outrageousness, has been chipped away by what we know, and the more we know, the larger the chunks of the sculpture have fallen away. As much as people want to try to glue pieces of it back together, tape them back onto the sculpture with duct tape, it has been revealed as fake, merely a façade. Many have attempted to build new sculptures to take attention away from the original one in the hopes that these will surround the original fake sculpture and make the glue and duct tape less noticeable.

But the fact remains that quite PROBABLY a very innocent man locked away somewhere in fear for his and his family's safety whose life will never be the same again who has been outrageously and unabashedly vilified by race baiters, politicians, the media, and the community all based upon a mountain of lies, partial truths and selective and prejudicial information.

That this could happen to someone in THIS country. That a person can be so vilified so quickly by so many in this country is a national disgrace.

 

[JLSChook]

Just remember what you are saying is your opinion, and that's cool. But to me it makes perfect sense. I guess it just depends on what you want to believe.

It's not what I want to believe, it's common sense and logic. No need to remind me about what my opinion is either please. I'm me, and I obviously know what I think, what I logically conclude from real evidence and laws, and what I post.

I never have to twist things into a pretzel or make outlandish scenarios to see what's real here and what's not. I go with what is.