MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #14

[Jacie Estes]

Yes, Rob.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...teen-Michael-Brown-14&p=10917819#post10917819

Is it because he addressed your race in any way?
(I'm trying to understand, too)

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I absolutely believe there are bad cops out there, but I do not believe they are the majority. From my personal experience, so far I've managed to live 70 years without being locked up, shot at, or cursed at by a cop. I've had ONE speeding ticket in my entire life--that's the extent of my run-in with the law. Was I speeding? Yes. I paid the fine before the court date. Although I believe to this day that I was not speeding as much as the cop said I was, I do believe I was speeding. Is that the only time I've broken the speed limit but not been caught? Absolutely not.

Now, on the other hand, I have a relative who spent some time in prison for possession of Meth. It's been years ago, and he still blames the LE for his prison stay, even though he WAS guilty of the charge, plus he tried for fake the urine test by taping a vial of someone else's urine to his leg and giving that sample instead of his own the day he showed up for court. They poured that one out and made him wait till he could pee again...he tested positive. He hates the cops and believes they are all bad cause they sent him to prison for nothing. He contends that it shouldn't be against the law to use meth because all the ingredients it takes to make it are legal to purchase. That makes about as much sense as saying everything it takes to make a bomb is legal to purchase, so it shouldn't be against the law to make a bomb. The fact is, LE saved his life because he is clean now. He would have been dead if he had not gone to prison, but he just doesn't see it that way.

You can act in a way where LE will be your best friend, or you can act in a way where they will be your worst enemy. I have a hard time believing that LE just decides to arrest or shoot somebody for no reason at all except they can. JMO

I don't. I think that the vast majority of LEO's are excellent and we're lucky to have them.

BUT....my aunt met one of the bad ones once, in Georgia, on the way to Disney with her kids. It's a long story but she wasn't speeding, was wearing her seatbelt, did nothing wrong at all, had no reason to even be pulled over - and she ended up handcuffed in front of her husband, kids, nieces and nephews, jailed, and then, for good measure, the officer said he had reason to believe she was carrying drugs (what reason? Her spotless record?) and he had her strip searched. All because he was just on some power trip.

My aunt, at the time was in her late forties, white, married, driving an average car with her two kids in the back, and again, spotless record. Probably no one would say she is a type to be profiled. I have no doubt that had the officer done the same to someone of a different race they would have assumed racial profiling, when it's clear this guy was an equal opportunity jerk.

Lucky for my aunt, for 20 years she has worked as a paralegal for an attorney who is very prominent in the field of international relations. He's no dummy. He was at a meeting at the Pentagon when it was hit on 9/11. So some low-life wannabe robocop didn't scare him. He got the chief and DA on the phone and said who he was, told them my aunt (and 8 other witnesses') version of events, that she was strip searched with no probable cause, and how much he looked forward to the trial - and the civil suit afterwards. Boy, did they clear up that "mixup" real fast. They couldn't apologize fast enough. I'm sure it wasn't the first time that officer pulled that stunt though, and how many other people didn't have witnesses or the resources my aunt had to fight back?

 

[popsicle]

Sometimes it is just called small talk?

 

[okmom23]

Merci beaucoup. In my family, my mother and my father's mother were both adopted out to other than Indian families. They were adopted into a different racial and cultural milieu. My great grandparents and great great grandparents were 'removed', under the order of the federal Indian Removal Program, from what later became the Indiana/Illinois states to Indian Territory, later to become Oklahoma; this was done because of who and what they were, they were Indian.

Now, in my generation, I am being asked what I prefer to be called? We are all human, we just come in different colors, shapes, sizes, cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds. While I am not, like my ancestors, being 'removed', why am I being asked the question? Does a Caucasian person want to be asked, in the course of a traffic stop, if they are Irish, English, Polish, Lithuanian or German? Clearly, for Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, American and Eastern Indians there are noticeable differences than Caucasians; why haven't we progressed to just being human?

There are many academic and anecdotal studies of historical trauma. It is something that is real, palpable and far reaching.

http://www.mcgill.ca/files/resilience/Whitbeck_2004.pdf
http://uni-leipzig.de/~sozio/mitarb...g_09_Kansteiner_Finding_Meaning_in_Memory.pdf
http://hpp.sagepub.com/content/7/3/312
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en... studies of historical trauma in jews&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/343766/Holocaust._Trauma_its_transmission_and_connection_with_identity

I understand what you are saying, and while I wouldn't dare try to speak for the officer that pulled you over, I can't help but wonder if the reason he asked had more to do with trying to be PC. I'm from Oklahoma and am a tribal member myself, in my experience I know people who are greatly offended when referred to as Indian, others who get upset being referred to as Native American, etc. maybe he was trying to educate himself-KWIM

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Merci beaucoup. In my family, my mother and my father's mother were both adopted out to other than Indian families. They were adopted into a different racial and cultural milieu. My great grandparents and great great grandparents were 'removed', under the order of the federal Indian Removal Program, from what later became the Indiana/Illinois states to Indian Territory, later to become Oklahoma; this was done because of who and what they were, they were Indian.

Now, in my generation, I am being asked what I prefer to be called? We are all human, we just come in different colors, shapes, sizes, cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds. While I am not, like my ancestors, being 'removed', why am I being asked the question? Does a Caucasian person want to be asked, in the course of a traffic stop, if they are Irish, English, Polish, Lithuanian or German? Clearly, for Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, American and Eastern Indians there are noticeable differences than Caucasians; why haven't we progressed to just being human?

There are many academic and anecdotal studies of historical trauma. It is something that is real, palpable and far reaching.

http://www.mcgill.ca/files/resilience/Whitbeck_2004.pdf
http://uni-leipzig.de/~sozio/mitarb...g_09_Kansteiner_Finding_Meaning_in_Memory.pdf
http://hpp.sagepub.com/content/7/3/312
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en... studies of historical trauma in jews&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/343766/Holocaust._Trauma_its_transmission_and_connection_with_identity

I get it, I do. (I mean I don't, but I do )

While the officer, in his view, was trying to be culturally sensitive, by asking what you preferred to be called, from your vantage point, it seemed insensitive, because it shouldn't matter in relation to a traffic stop. I'm sure had you met him under another circumstance where it was actually germane to the topic at hand, you would have been more than willing to discuss your history and culture. Your different perspectives/experiences led you to this strange interaction.

Similar to the disconnect with the redneck quote above. It could have been interpreted as there was something uniquely wrong in some way with people referred to as "rednecks," or that they are in someway lacking as compared to other groups of people. I know that's not how you meant it, but sometimes those are the dangers we face communicating across cultural lines. Although I'm one who think the benefits outweigh the challenges.

 

[nothingnew]

When I drive a van full of boxes, law enforcement doesn't stop me to find out why.

Even when you are speeding within their view? That's incredible, you lucky duck, you! I've only been pulled over once where I didn't get a bunch of conversation.

 

[Jacie Estes]

This raises another point. It is not my job to educate him. He was a professional, making a good salary and who has been trained for the job.

http://www.ncpc.org/topics/hate-crime/strategies/strategy-raising-cultural-awareness

http://www.cjimagazine.com/archives/cjif5dd.html?id=634

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...n=display_arch&article_id=466&issue_id=122004

http://web.stcloudstate.edu/smhennessy/Articles/CULTURAL AWARENESS CRIME AND JUSTICE ARTICLE.pdf

I understand what you are saying, and while I wouldn't dare try to speak for the officer that pulled you over, I can't help but wonder if the reason he asked had more to do with trying to be PC. I'm from Oklahoma and am a tribal member myself, in my experience I know people who are greatly offended when referred to as Indian, others who get upset being referred to as Native American, etc. maybe he was trying to educate himself-KWIM

 

[Lovejac]

Baruti says they have five demands, including the immediate termination of the Ferguson officer who shot Mike Brown and for him to be charged with murder. He said, ‘As of now, not one demand has been met and that`s why we`ve got this ongoing tension. We`re saying that leadership just do the right thing.’


:facepalm:

http://fox2now.com/2014/09/01/michael-brown-protesters-call-off-plan-to-block-highways/

Well, bless his heart.

We will get right on re-writing that pesky little Constitution for him.

 

[Minette]

Well, Jacie. My sister has had the genetic tests done, we are not really 'white' and yet I don't want to go into the specifics of what we are, largely because we have never known/identified with that culture so it seems unfair to appropriate it, and also it isn't really that specific. One day I will get the Y chromosome tests done on my brother and then we'll know more, but in the meantime, my older brother & sister look completely white, I look 'mixed' and my younger brother looks totally 'other.' From our perspective, I guess we identify with 'poor white' more than any other demographic. My parents were both very educated, yet one was an artist and the other a poet, I will let you figure out how financially advantaged that made us. And let me tell you, skin color doesn't necessarily give any advantages vs. economic status! Well, maybe that's just my experience.

Anyway, I'm just trying to say in my blathering way, that it isn't just skin color, it is socioeconomic status perhaps above all.

And damn, I just value your input, I can say that, right???

 

[Dana]

Well, bless his heart.

We will get right on re-writing that pesky little Constitution for him.

We need an LOL button!!!!

 

[katydid23]

Merci beaucoup. In my family, my mother and my father's mother were both adopted out to other than Indian families. They were adopted into a different racial and cultural milieu. My great grandparents and great great grandparents were 'removed', under the order of the federal Indian Removal Program, from what later became the Indiana/Illinois states to Indian Territory, later to become Oklahoma; this was done because of who and what they were, they were Indian.

Now, in my generation, I am being asked what I prefer to be called? We are all human, we just come in different colors, shapes, sizes, cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds. While I am not, like my ancestors, being 'removed', why am I being asked the question? Does a Caucasian person want to be asked, in the course of a traffic stop, if they are Irish, English, Polish, Lithuanian or German? Clearly, for Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, American and Eastern Indians there are noticeable differences than Caucasians; why haven't we progressed to just being human?

There are many academic and anecdotal studies of historical trauma. It is something that is real, palpable and far reaching.

http://www.mcgill.ca/files/resilience/Whitbeck_2004.pdf
http://uni-leipzig.de/~sozio/mitarb...g_09_Kansteiner_Finding_Meaning_in_Memory.pdf
http://hpp.sagepub.com/content/7/3/312
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en... studies of historical trauma in jews&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/343766/Holocaust._Trauma_its_transmission_and_connection_with_identity

But with all due respect, and I have nothing but the ultimate in love and respect for you, it was noted that you do have a sticker which reads "Proud To Be Indian.' So why call the officer out for asking you politely which cultural term you prefer? That seems kind of unfair, imo/ He never implied you were not human nor less than human. He merely responded to a sticker, which discusses your ethnicity.

Kind of reminds me of my daughters friend, who is a triple DDD, and wears very low-cut tops, complaining to me that boys never look her in her eyes. :doh:

I know this is a sensitive subject Jace, so please take it the way it is offered. Only as a way of discussion, and certainly not in a critical or judgmental way. :heartbeat:

 

[bwt42]

Merci beaucoup. In my family, my mother and my father's mother were both adopted out to other than Indian families. They were adopted into a different racial and cultural milieu. My great grandparents and great great grandparents were 'removed', under the order of the federal Indian Removal Program, from what later became the Indiana/Illinois states to Indian Territory, later to become Oklahoma; this was done because of who and what they were, they were Indian.

Now, in my generation, I am being asked what I prefer to be called? We are all human, we just come in different colors, shapes, sizes, cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds. While I am not, like my ancestors, being 'removed', why am I being asked the question? Does a Caucasian person want to be asked, in the course of a traffic stop, if they are Irish, English, Polish, Lithuanian or German? Clearly, for Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, American and Eastern Indians there are noticeable differences than Caucasians; why haven't we progressed to just being human?

There are many academic and anecdotal studies of historical trauma. It is something that is real, palpable and far reaching.

http://www.mcgill.ca/files/resilience/Whitbeck_2004.pdf
http://uni-leipzig.de/~sozio/mitarb...g_09_Kansteiner_Finding_Meaning_in_Memory.pdf
http://hpp.sagepub.com/content/7/3/312
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en... studies of historical trauma in jews&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/343766/Holocaust._Trauma_its_transmission_and_connection_with_identity

I would not dare display "proud to be white" sticker.

 

[katydid23]

But with all due respect, and I have nothing but the ultimate in love and respect for you, it was noted that you do have a sticker which reads "Proud To Be Indian.' So why call the officer out for asking you politely which cultural term you prefer? That seems kind of unfair, imo/ He never implied you were not human nor less than human. He merely responded to a sticker, which discusses your ethnicity.

Kind of reminds me of my daughters friend, who is a triple DDD, and wears very low-cut tops, complaining to me that boys never look her in her eyes. :doh:

I know this is a sensitive subject Jace, so please take it the way it is offered. Only as a way of discussion, and certainly not in a critical or judgmental way. :heartbeat:

eta: my 22 yr old daughter is half Swedish and Half Jamaican. Many times people have asked her if she prefers being called black or African American or whatever. I don't think she assumes it means she is not part of the human race. But it interests her because she says it opens up a dialogue about an important subject. jmo

 

[DebinGA]

Similar to the disconnect with the redneck quote above. It could have been interpreted as there was something uniquely wrong in some way with people referred to as "rednecks," or that they are in someway lacking as compared to other groups of people. I know that's not how you meant it, but sometimes those are the dangers we face communicating across cultural lines. Although I'm one who think the benefits outweigh the challenges.

Yikes! I'm DebinGA, where Rednecks R Us and proud of it. If my silly joke was offensive to anyone, I half-heartedly apologize because being "nice" is also part of our Southern culture, but my heart is not in it.

 

[Jacie Estes]

My bottom line:

We are all human, we just come in different colors, shapes, sizes, cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds.

There is action and reaction.

Well, Jacie. My sister has had the genetic tests done, we are not really 'white' and yet I don't want to go into the specifics of what we are, largely because we have never known/identified with that culture so it seems unfair to appropriate it, and also it isn't really that specific. One day I will get the Y chromosome tests done on my brother and then we'll know more, but in the meantime, my older brother & sister look completely white, I look 'mixed' and my younger brother looks totally 'other.' From our perspective, I guess we identify with 'poor white' more than any other demographic. My parents were both very educated, yet one was an artist and the other a poet, I will let you figure out how financially advantaged that made us. And let me tell you, skin color doesn't necessarily give any advantages vs. economic status! Well, maybe that's just my experience.

Anyway, I'm just trying to say in my blathering way, that it isn't just skin color, it is socioeconomic status perhaps above all.

And damn, I just value your input, I can say that, right???

 

[Lovejac]

And yet they still defend her as a credible witness!

They meaning one person? As in 'they shot him' when talking about Officer Wilson?

Or they as in "two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified".

 

[CHERIE.T]

Also from the link:

"When asked for his views on the footage that shows the teenager and his friend Dorian Johnson (a key witness to the shooting, now revealed to have a history of making a false police report) robbing a nearby convenience store, Pastor Ewing denied that the grainy images show Michael at all."

If MB's Uncle doesn't believe it's MB in the convenience store after seeing the video, what are the chances he's going to believe anything negative about MB that the investigation uncovers or the GJ has to say.

I think it would be pretty damn easy to identify such a huge person as MB ....by his size and his face and his friends.

people see what they want to see

 

[beach]

We'll be moving over to a fresh new thread soon. Don't want anyone caught losing a post in the shuffle.


Let's drop the debate of the correct verbiage referencing different cultures when we move on over, okay? There is never going to be an answer that satisfies all so let's just accept that and move on.

Thanks and will be locking up in about 10 min with a link to the new thread.

 

[Lovejac]

When I drive a van full of boxes, law enforcement doesn't stop me to find out why.

But, Jacie said she was stopped for speeding :waitasec:

 

[bwt42]

Reed, if your around. I think you used 35' in a couple posts. I don't remember if you were referring to the distance from the car to MB where he fell or from OW when he fired his last shot. The distance from OW to MB when the last burst of shots came are almost as important to me as exactly what position MB was in. Is there a reason you used 35'. TIA