MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #16

[sonjay]

This sounds like what Darren experienced with Michael shoving him back into the car, punching him, and going for the gun. vvv

When Neill opened his car door, Cooper attacked him... The two wrestled in and out of the car in a “life-and-death struggle,” Neill said. Neill was losing the fight and felt forced to fire his weapon to save his life.

“Everything seemed to go real slow,” Neill said. “Only by the grace of God was I able to survive.”

Yep, you could substitute "OW" for Neill and "MB" for Cooper in that description.

It's easy for us to sit in our armchairs in the comfort of our homes and debate the seriousness of the attack, but for the police officer in that moment in that place, being attacked and in fear for his life and he has to make life-and-death decisions in split seconds, it's a different matter altogether. OW was doing nothing but telling a couple of young men to walk on the sidewalk instead of the street, and suddenly he's in a life-or-death struggle with a man who outweighed him by probably around 100 pounds.

Based on statistics, this was likely the first time OW had fired his weapon in the line of duty. He had a serious, or at least potentially serious, head injury, and he still managed to think and act clearly enough to defend himself against his attacker.

And now here we are, with death threats against him and a federal civil rights investigation, and looting and rioting, and traffic-stopping protests, and stores burned down, and a bunch of activists and instigators promoting their deceptive narrative and calling for his arrest and execution.

 

[Frydaddy]

Brown had a clean record, the store owner suffered no serious injury and the theft was minor. A blow that leaves someone unconsious is a far more serious assault.

If only the store incident had occurred, why would Brown not be eligible for diversion?

Diversion was available to Mike Brown...he could have made a number of legal choices that day, probably the best diversion program out there is obeying the law.

 

[LambChop]

There are two sets of laws, one for police officers and one for civilians when they feel their life is threatened. For the civilian they have no "obligation" to retreat. For a police officer it's his "duty" to not retreat. Therefore the officer only has to "believe" his life, or the life of others, is in danger to kill someone. The first four shots were to MB's right arm so it appears, in my opinion, Officer Wilson was trying to stop MB from moving towards him. If MB were stationary and standing with his hands up why would there be so many wounds to his arms. The last two shots appear to have hit MB while he was falling and too late for Officer Wilson to correct his aim.

This is evidence we know for a fact. So think about it. How could MB have been shot four times in the arm while fleeing, turn in 2-3 seconds and get shot in the top of his head while standing still with his hands up?

Stay on topic. But if you need to reference another case that specifically relates to what happened here with MB and use it in comparison it would be allowed. Just do not go off topic and discuss the other case in detail, only relate it to what appears to have happened here.

:silly: Yes, and no traffic-gate conversations.

Thanks, Lambchop

 

[tandt]

Originally Posted by katydid23 Looks like MB's parents are planning a new presser to ask why OW has not been arrested yet. [ just saw it on CNN]

My heart breaks for this family-- first, regardless of circumstances, they lost a child.

Now they're being led by a pack of shysters into the limelight over and over again. I predict when all the information comes out, the media, Sharpton, Crump, Holder, Obama and everyone will turn their backs on this family (we can really see it beginning to happen, right?).

And while the family may really know that MB was no angel, they'll have to come to grips that his unfortunate decisions that day ultimately sealed his destiny. At that point, they will have paraded themselves out and lost all credibility b/c of their alliances-- and they'll be standing there all alone.

 

[Klood-N]

Yep, you could substitute "OW" for Neill and "MB" for Cooper in that description.

It's easy for us to sit in our armchairs in the comfort of our homes and debate the seriousness of the attack, but for the police officer in that moment in that place, being attacked and in fear for his life and he has to make life-and-death decisions in split seconds, it's a different matter altogether. OW was doing nothing but telling a couple of young men to walk on the sidewalk instead of the street, and suddenly he's in a life-or-death struggle with a man who outweighed him by probably around 100 pounds.

Based on statistics, this was likely the first time OW had fired his weapon in the line of duty. He had a serious, or at least potentially serious, head injury, and he still managed to think and act clearly enough to defend himself against his attacker.

And now here we are, with death threats against him and a federal civil rights investigation, and looting and rioting, and traffic-stopping protests, and stores burned down, and a bunch of activists and instigators promoting their deceptive narrative and calling for his arrest and execution.

Very similar. I just found this in my notes.

He has told investigators that he struggled with Brown in his police cruiser and opened fire out of fear for his life after Brown charged at him, according to people familiar with Wilson’s interview with investigators.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...0e203c-2757-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html

 

[DebinGA]

Diversion was available to Mike Brown...he could have made a number of legal choices that day, probably the best diversion program out there is obeying the law. And to think, Mike didn't own a car, so he was apparently living a life of ease in Ferguson, relative to the dire traffic-gate conversation.

IIRC, 18 yo MB's learner's license had expired, and he'd never gotten a driver's license. I wonder how common that is where MB grew up? Was there no Brown "family car" available to MB? Is getting a driver's license at 16, or at least before 18, not a rite of passage in poor black communities?

 

[Frydaddy]

Didn't Piaget say she called the media to come? And it appeared that the Black Panthers and Anthony Shahid who refers to himself as an agitator were on scene fast that day. I think the media became a tool to foment outrage whether intentionally or not. I'm glad people have found outlets for facts and information when many in the media became too invested in the narrative to research.

I think Mitchell was the one focused on calling the news.

 

[Klood-N]

My heart breaks for this family-- first, regardless of circumstances, they lost a child.

Now they're being led by a pack of shysters into the limelight over and over again. I predict when all the information comes out, the media, Sharpton, Crump, Holder, Obama and everyone will turn their backs on this family (we can really see it beginning to happen, right?).

And while the family may really know that MB was no angel, they'll have to come to grips that his unfortunate decisions that day ultimately sealed his destiny. At that point, they will have paraded themselves out and lost all credibility b/c of their alliances-- and they'll be standing there all alone.

The family has been my prayers as well. For a long while, I thought amidst the family's very genuine grief, Shahid, Shabazz, the local NAACP, the attorneys and others were exploiting them, and in a daze the family didn't realize who and what they'd aligned with. But a couple days ago, I ran across a picture of Leslie with a raised Black Power fist. That changed everything for me. I still feel for her, but that, and now knowing they knew that very afternoon that officials were not the reason Michael lay there so long, plus some of the statements made by the family and their chosen associates and representatives was eye-opening.

 

[Frydaddy]

IIRC, 18 yo MB's learner's license had expired, and he'd never gotten a driver's license. I wonder how common that is where MB grew up? Was there no Brown "family car" available to MB? Is getting a driver's license at 16, or at least before 18, not a rite of passage in poor black communities?

I would imagine resources had/have a lot to do with it. With the cost of cars, gas, insurance, would imagine many teens in poor communities go without.

 

[Klood-N]

IIRC, 18 yo MB's learner's license had expired, and he'd never gotten a driver's license. I wonder how common that is where MB grew up? Was there no Brown "family car" available to MB? Is getting a driver's license at 16, or at least before 18, not a rite of passage in poor black communities?

Good point. I was wondering how he was going to get to college. With more information emerging about his life, I get the impression he felt isolated. I saw one article about him begging someone for a ride she said "as he always did" or something similar.

 

[Trident]

I would imagine resources had/have a lot to do with it. With the cost of cars, gas, insurance, would imagine many teens in poor communities go without.

My kids went without until they could buy their own car, pay insurance, gas, and upkeep. In my poor, white community we called it learning responsibility.

 

[Amber29]

At least one poster has claimed that MB would get 5-15 years in jail for stealing the cigars and shoving the store clerk. The football player committed a much more serious assault and was sentenced to diversion. So why should we take any stock in the 5-15 year claim?

One of the key terms here is football player. We can't go into specifics but if you want to talk about a group of people who can "get away with murder" it's professional athletes of any race. There's no comparing that case to this one.

 

[Footwarrior]

Several witness accounts have the first gunshot happening during the altercation at the SUV. Is there evidence that this shot hit Michael Brown?

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/Tobacco/ucm320147.htm

Ferguson Mart/Liquor was cited earlier for failing to check ID for someone buying tobacco products, which in MO includes anyone under 27. So neither DJ or MB could legally buy cigarillos without ID, and iirc neither had a driver's license at the time, so what did they usually use for ID?

"A retailer MUST check a photographic identification that includes a date of birth for any person under the age of 27 who attempts to purchase cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, and/or smokeless tobacco. Failure to do so violates 21 C.F.R. § 1140.14(b)(1). "

 

[SStarr33]

Where are these images of the big scary crowd in the first couple hours of the shooting?
I never saw anything remotely looking like a dangerous situation. Except for one or two shocked family members, every person stayed behind the yellow tape- didn't they? And congregated in small groups, often near media. They felt safe enough.

What was this fear actually based on- anyone with imaages that support this new story?

Gunshots were fired. Did you forget about that part?

 

[DebinGA]

I would imagine resources had/have a lot to do with it. With the cost of cars, gas, insurance, would imagine many teens in poor communities go without.

Go without a car, yes. But go without a driver's license at all? I imagine even horrible Normandy HS was required to offer driver's ed, and MB had family in the area with jobs and presumably cars he could use if necessary.

 

[Klood-N]

One of the key terms here is football player. We can't go into specifics but if you want to talk about a group of people who can "get away with murder" it's professional athletes of any race. There's no comparing that case to this one.

You just reminded me, thank you. This was another piece of information that I noticed.

Michael Brown will be remembered on the football field this weekend.

Brown played football at Normandy High School, which is now the Normandy Collaborative High School, and played offensive tackle.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/sports/hi...normandy-football-honors-mike-brown/14430259/

TThe offensive tackle position is one of the toughest to play in the NFL. It takes a rare breed of size, strength, technique, quickness and athleticism to succeed. Unlike their counterparts to the inside, the tackle HAS to be strong enough to move defensive ends and defensive tackles, quick enough to drop into his kick-slide against a speed-rusher, solid enough in his hands to deliver a jarring blow to a defender that will knock him off his pursuit path, and agile enough to work in space against a smaller linebacker or corner.

The hand-punch is a weapon for the offensive tackle in pass-pro. Delivering a good punch to the defender can knock him off balance, and divert his path to the quarterback. You often hear scouts use the term "heavy hands" when referring to an offensive tackle, and believe me, this is a good thing. One of the best offensive tackles I have even had the pleasure of watching was Jonathan Ogden. He had some of the heaviest hands I have ever seen. His punch was so jarring, that he would often d-rail a pass-rusher withing two seconds of the ball being snapped.
http://www.hogshaven.com/2013/6/1/4386090/attributes-of-a-good-offensive-tackle

Michael was the size of these NFL players too. I think Officer Wilson had reason to be afraid. Imagine wrestling for the gun with someone with this size and skillset.

I think it was reported that at one point during their struggle, the gun was turned into Darren's hip. He might have bruises on more than his face.

 

[sonjay]

Several witness accounts have the first gunshot happening during the altercation at the SUV. Is there evidence that this shot hit Michael Brown?

No hard evidence at this point that I've heard of. MB's buddy DJ said that MB was hit at the car and that he (DJ) saw blood on MB at the car. But DJ hasn't proven himself to be a very reliable witness. There are also reports in the MSM attributed to unnamed sources that say that MB was hit by that first round. But we (the general public) haven't seen any records of the police investigation revealing blood or DNA in the car or any other hard evidence either way that MB was hit at the car.

If I understand the Baden autopsy report correctly, there was no stippling on the skin around any of the bullet wounds, which would indicate that none of them was fired from closer than about 1 or 2 feet. So there appears to be some evidence that MB was not hit by that round.

If only one shot was fired in the car, and if the stray bullet that was plucked from the building is from the round that was fired from within the car, I have my doubts that MB was hit by that round at the car. I doubt it could go that far after hitting MB. I've also seen reports attributed to unnamed sources that MB was injured at the car by the gun's slide, which is possible, IMO. I have a friend who had her thumbnail torn off by the slide when she wasn't holding the gun quite right. The slide is blown back with a whole lot of force. So even MB's blood is in the car that isn't necessarily proof that he was hit by a bullet in the car.

I'm not sure it really matters either way. The gunshot apparently resulted in MB breaking off the assault in the car and fleeing, thus saving OW from further assault in the car.

 

[TheDuchess]

The knife shooting was actually days later in Northern St Louis, so the gunfire near the area delaying Michael's retrieval wasn't related. There were videos online of at least one guy in the mob flashing his gun.

How can anyone look at any of the photos or videos of the scene and think that was anything less than completely out of control? There were people running around everywhere and not just the family. I can understand the family being hysterical, etc... and they did seem as though they were being attended to. But I saw random people getting in the faces of random police officers who were simply trying to secure the scene. I heard swearing, threats, chanting, etc...going on in all of the videos. It was MAYHEM.

 

[Apollo]

You just reminded me, thank you. This was another piece of information that I noticed.

Michael Brown will be remembered on the football field this weekend.

Brown played football at Normandy High School, which is now the Normandy Collaborative High School, and played offensive tackle.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/sports/hi...normandy-football-honors-mike-brown/14430259/

TThe offensive tackle position is one of the toughest to play in the NFL. It takes a rare breed of size, strength, technique, quickness and athleticism to succeed. Unlike their counterparts to the inside, the tackle HAS to be strong enough to move defensive ends and defensive tackles, quick enough to drop into his kick-slide against a speed-rusher, solid enough in his hands to deliver a jarring blow to a defender that will knock him off his pursuit path, and agile enough to work in space against a smaller linebacker or corner.

The hand-punch is a weapon for the offensive tackle in pass-pro. Delivering a good punch to the defender can knock him off balance, and divert his path to the quarterback. You often hear scouts use the term "heavy hands" when referring to an offensive tackle, and believe me, this is a good thing. One of the best offensive tackles I have even had the pleasure of watching was Jonathan Ogden. He had some of the heaviest hands I have ever seen. His punch was so jarring, that he would often d-rail a pass-rusher withing two seconds of the ball being snapped.
http://www.hogshaven.com/2013/6/1/4386090/attributes-of-a-good-offensive-tackle

Michael was the size of these NFL players too. I think Officer Wilson had reason to be afraid. Imagine wrestling for the gun with someone with this size and skillset.

I think it was reported that at one point during their struggle, the gun was turned into Darren's hip. He might have bruises on more than his face.

Whaaat? What happened to "His family tried to get him to play football. Brown was too timid for the sport, Ewing said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...4d65e6-2257-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

And now he's going to be remembered on the football field this weekend? Well, ain't that special.