GUILTY MO - Nicholas, 35, & Justin Diemel, 24, brothers missing, Clinton County, 21 July 2019 *ARREST* #2

[sluethlocal]

You would think this current situation would be talked about constantly in Braymer. I visited town yesterday and spent an hour while conducting business. No mention between the locals about this case. Since I am a local I believe that all just want this to be over with. And knowing the people in this area if you did the crime you do the time period.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Not sure if this is allowed to be posted on this site? Please correct me if I am in error. I may have to drive the 12 miles to get the scoop. I was conducting business at the courthouse today and since court was in session no phones allowed. A small county court here. Safety is a big concern. I am sure JN will be present via polycom again for protection of all.


08/13/2019 Motion Denied
By agreement of Parties, Court denies request for cameras in courtroom. JK/cm

Associated Entries: 08/09/2019 - Request Filed

08/09/2019 Request Filed
Notice of Request to Allow Cameras in Courtroom

Associated Entries: 08/13/2019 - Motion Denied

Thank you!

 

[?mysterian?]

Post 148 the interview video:

At 00:53 of the interview, Gingrich states, "Those cattle got feelings. It's our duty to take good care of our cattle."


Then he proceeds to admit he watched as JN apparently brought more cattle than they agreed upon, noticed that the cattle weren't being fed enough, and eventually, the cattle starved to death. He says he contacted JN's family about the cattle being underfed and JN showed up and cursed him. He says he didn't want to report JN because he wanted to help him and not get him in any more trouble. IMO

So apparently his desire to help JN stay out of trouble trumps any regard for the cattle that are being deliberately starved to death on his own land, from the interview video. IMO

I remain disgusted and think he should be investigated for not reporting the situation, IMO.

ETA: If JN had been reported back when all this was reportedly going on, perhaps an investigation could have been underway, even to the point of revoking his probation. Maybe he would've been arrested, or in jail. Maybe the rest of his cattle would have been seized. Or he could have been under more scrutiny and maybe would've not made the apparent decision he did the day the Diemels arrived on his farm. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, because what's happened has happened. Imo

It's just a shame that people knew and this whole situation might have been prevented if someone had spoken up to anyone with authority to do something about it. IMO.

 

[sluethlocal]

Post 148 the interview video:

At 00:53 of the interview, Gingrich states, "Those cattle got feelings. It's our duty to take good care of our cattle."


Then he proceeds to admit he watched as JN apparently brought more cattle than they agreed upon, noticed that the cattle weren't being fed enough, and eventually, the cattle starved to death. He says he contacted JN's family about the cattle being underfed and JN showed up and cursed him. He says he didn't want to report JN because he wanted to help him and not get him in any more trouble.

So apparently his desire to help JN stay out of trouble trumps any regard for the cattle that are being deliberately starved to death on his own land, from the interview video.

I remain disgusted and think he should be investigated for not reporting the situation, IMO.

Do we all think TSF was responsible here. I have dealt with the Amish and respect them immensely. Very honest people. As shown he was concerned and contacted family member. It was the responsibilty of TSF/JN to take care of cattle. Knowing JN and the excuses of TSF they expected the Amish Individual to put out the cost to raise the cattle which no one knows whom actually owns. A shame and a disgrace no matter whom was ivolved. I focus my time on JN/TSF first.

 

[Gardener1850]

Post 148 the interview video:

At 00:53 of the interview, Gingrich states, "Those cattle got feelings. It's our duty to take good care of our cattle."


Then he proceeds to admit he watched as JN apparently brought more cattle than they agreed upon, noticed that the cattle weren't being fed enough, and eventually, the cattle starved to death. He says he contacted JN's family about the cattle being underfed and JN showed up and cursed him. He says he didn't want to report JN because he wanted to help him and not get him in any more trouble. IMO

So apparently his desire to help JN stay out of trouble trumps any regard for the cattle that are being deliberately starved to death on his own land, from the interview video. IMO

I remain disgusted and think he should be investigated for not reporting the situation, IMO.

ETA: If JN had been reported back when all this was reportedly going on, perhaps an investigation could have been underway, even to the point of revoking his probation. Maybe he would've been arrested, or in jail. Maybe the rest of his cattle would have been seized. Or he could have been under more scrutiny and maybe would've not made the apparent decision he did the day the Diemels arrived on his farm. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, because what's happened has happened. Imo

It's just a shame that people knew and this whole situation might have been prevented if someone had spoken up to anyone with authority to do something about it. IMO.

I don't think it's that the Amish farmer was uncaring about the poor suffering animals. I believe the Amish farmer telling JN's family instead of telling the police represents a clash of different cultural views on how to solve problems. In the Amish community telling the family would have been enough because an Amish family would have punished their son for a stunt like that and then taken care of their animals or sold them. It is a shame those animals suffered needlessly. But IMO we should put the blame squarely on JN who neglected to take care of cattle he was being paid to feed. JN is the lazy, greedy, blankity-blank who let those animals die. JN should have been there daily to tend to them. Instead JN didn't even bother removing the plastic from the hay bales.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that the Amish farmer believed these to be JN's cattle. The farmer was only leasing his land to JN. It was up to JN to feed and tend to the cattle. In the Amish community JN's family would have felt a sense of responsibility to take care of JN's cattle as that would be viewed as their cattle too. If the farmer had known JN was being paid by someone else to feed the cattle then his actions might have been completely different. He might have gone to tell the owners of the cattle instead of JN's family. I know many will disagree with me but I see this more of a cultural clash with the Amish man trying to solve things in a peaceful manner according to his beliefs. Calling the "English" police is a last resort for the Amish. The Amish way backfired because he trusted JN and JN's family to solve the problem.

MOO.

 

[?mysterian?]

I don't think it's that the Amish farmer was uncaring about the poor suffering animals. I believe the Amish farmer telling JN's family instead of telling the police represents a clash of different cultural views on how to solve problems. In the Amish community telling the family would have been enough because an Amish family would have punished their son for a stunt like that and then taken care of their animals or sold them. It is a shame those animals suffered needlessly. But IMO we should put the blame squarely on JN who neglected to take care of cattle he was being paid to feed. JN is the lazy, greedy, blankity-blank who let those animals die. JN should have been there daily to tend to them. Instead JN didn't even bother removing the plastic from the hay bales.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that the Amish farmer believed these to be JN's cattle. The farmer was only leasing his land to JN. It was up to JN to feed and tend to the cattle. In the Amish community JN's family would have felt a sense of responsibility to take care of JN's cattle as that would be viewed as their cattle too. If the farmer had known JN was being paid by someone else to feed the cattle then his actions might have been completely different. He might have gone to tell the owners of the cattle instead of JN's family. I know many will disagree with me but I see this more of a cultural clash with the Amish man trying to solve things in a peaceful manner according to his beliefs. Calling the "English" police is a last resort for the Amish. The Amish way backfired because he trusted JN and JN's family to solve the problem.

MOO.

I agree with you. I think JN is to blame.

Still, these cattle didn't starve overnight. When Gingrich reported the situation to the family and they responded like they did, did the cattle's situation improve? Were they being fed properly after that? I doubt it, because so many died. I think it took a while for that to happen, and if so, it was apparent to anyone who could see that that's what was going on--the cattle were slowly starving to death. JN didn't take care of his responsibilities and his cattle died. Horribly. It could've possibly been prevented. But Gingrich chose not to report this because he didn't want to get JN in any more trouble, per his interview. All this IMO.

ETA: I think JN deserves to be treated the way he treated his calves--less than adequate amounts of food to eat, along with plastic and manure if he decides to eat that because he's so hungry. IMO. All this continues until his trial, if that day ever comes. Then, re-evaluation depending on trial outcome. Imo

 

[indicolite22]

We're not allowed to sleuth the suspect's family in this place. Does that go for dead relatives as well?

 

[sluethlocal]

Yes and when father died TSF moved family back to hometown Braymer.

Please give me some evidence. I am really curious since no actual evidence is on line. I am local and do not want to confront people I live near too. I hear news but it is only gossip. If you are local then we can communicate via private message to figure this out since much of what I hear is only gossip. I am so disappointed in the state of the cattle. This is something I have never seen in this part of the country

 

[BeckyF]

Post 148 the interview video:

At 00:53 of the interview, Gingrich states, "Those cattle got feelings. It's our duty to take good care of our cattle."


Then he proceeds to admit he watched as JN apparently brought more cattle than they agreed upon, noticed that the cattle weren't being fed enough, and eventually, the cattle starved to death. He says he contacted JN's family about the cattle being underfed and JN showed up and cursed him. He says he didn't want to report JN because he wanted to help him and not get him in any more trouble. IMO

So apparently his desire to help JN stay out of trouble trumps any regard for the cattle that are being deliberately starved to death on his own land, from the interview video. IMO

I remain disgusted and think he should be investigated for not reporting the situation, IMO.

ETA: If JN had been reported back when all this was reportedly going on, perhaps an investigation could have been underway, even to the point of revoking his probation. Maybe he would've been arrested, or in jail. Maybe the rest of his cattle would have been seized. Or he could have been under more scrutiny and maybe would've not made the apparent decision he did the day the Diemels arrived on his farm. Anyway, it doesn't matter now, because what's happened has happened. Imo

It's just a shame that people knew and this whole situation might have been prevented if someone had spoken up to anyone with authority to do something about it. IMO.

I suppose it is his word that he reported the underfed cattle to the family. I doubt he will be investigated for this. His conscience will probably bother him. JMO.

 

[indicolite22]

I agree with you. I think JN is to blame.

Still, these cattle didn't starve overnight. When Gingrich reported the situation to the family and they responded like they did, did the cattle's situation improve? Were they being fed properly after that? I doubt it, because so many died. I think it took a while for that to happen, and if so, it was apparent to anyone who could see that that's what was going on--the cattle were slowly starving to death. JN didn't take care of his responsibilities and his cattle died. Horribly. It could've possibly been prevented. But Gingrich chose not to report this because he didn't want to get JN in any more trouble, per his interview. All this IMO.

I don't understand. He didn't want JN to get in trouble, but he (Gingrich) was fine to be left dealing with the consequences - all that dead and half dead cattle on his land.

To me it doesn't matter whose cattle it was, stranger's, neighbor's or relative's. Reporting animal abuse, especially at that level, should have been a duty to those who knew about it.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

Please remember it is a violation of Websleuths TOS to sleuth family or make accusations against them if LE has not officially named a POI/Suspect.

 

[Cryptic]

JN showed up and cursed him. He says he didn't want to report JN because he wanted to help him and not get him in any more trouble. So apparently his desire to help JN stay out of trouble trumps any regard for the cattle that are being deliberately starved to death on his own land, from the interview video. IMO

I remain disgusted and think he should be investigated for not reporting the situation, IMO.

I am reading between the lines in regards to the "did not want JN to get in more trouble" statement. Here is my translation:

- When I spoke to JN about the abuse of the cattle, he got enraged and told me that the cattle were not my concern and also threatened me with umhmm.... "negative consequences" if I caused trouble for him.

- JN's definition of "trouble" is rather broad, can include many things and fairness is not a concern of JN. Based on the conservation I had with him and after talking to others, I concluded that JN could be dangerous. I then dropped the matter involving the cattle.

Then factor in that the individual, as Gardener pointed out, also has a cultural reluctance to involve outside authorities in community matters.

To me it doesn't matter whose cattle it was, stranger's, neighbor's or relative's. Reporting animal abuse, especially at that level, should have been a duty to those who knew about it.

In practicality that sense of duty can be muted in some people for many reasons.

One reason maybe a belief that the subject of the complaint is inherently dangerous and prone to seek violent revenge against either the informant, his family, or both.

In the Amish community telling the family would have been enough because an Amish family would have punished their son for a stunt like that and then taken care of their animals or sold them.

Very well said.

As a side note, I believe that ultra Orthodox Jews have the same approach as Amish in that they very rarely involve the police and always try to seek corrective action from with in their community if at all possible.

 

[indicolite22]

Do we all think TSF was responsible here. I have dealt with the Amish and respect them immensely. Very honest people. As shown he was concerned and contacted family member. It was the responsibilty of TSF/JN to take care of cattle. Knowing JN and the excuses of TSF they expected the Amish Individual to put out the cost to raise the cattle which no one knows whom actually owns. A shame and a disgrace no matter whom was ivolved. I focus my time on JN/TSF first.

The Amish farmer was only leasing out his land to JN. He wasn't expected to take care of the animals, but obviously was left to deal with the aftermath.

 

[indicolite22]

On paper this is very true. In practicality, however, that sense of duty can be muted in some people for many reasons.

One reason maybe a belief that the subject of the complaint is inherently dangerous and prone to seek violent revenge against either the informant, his family, or both.

What about an anonymous complaint to the correct authorities?

 

[?mysterian?]

I am reading between the lines in regards to the "did not want JN to get in more trouble" statement. Here is my translation:

- When I spoke to JN about the abuse of the cattle, he got enraged and told me that the cattle were not my concern and also threatened me with umhmm.... "negative consequences" if I caused trouble for him.

- JN's definition of "trouble" is rather broad, can include many things and fairness is not a concern of JN. Based on the conservation I had with him and after talking to others, I concluded that JN could be dangerous. I then dropped the matter involving the cattle.

In practicality that sense of duty can be muted in some people for many reasons.

One reason maybe a belief that the subject of the complaint is inherently dangerous and prone to seek violent revenge against either the informant, his family, or both.

Very well said.

As a side note, I believe that ultra Orthodox Jews have the same approach as Amish in that they very rarely involve the police and always try to seek corrective action from with in their community if at all possible.

I'm confused about the part where you discuss JN's definition of "trouble". In the interview, JN is not interviewed, just the farmer, Mr. Gingrich. He's the one who mentions trouble.

 

[Cryptic]

What about an anonymous complaint to the correct authorities?

That would be a possible course of action.

At the same time, anonymous complaints don't always stay that anonymous. Then factor in that a violence inclined subject would not need to prove who the informant was. Rather, he only needed to suspect who made the complaint.

This dangerous possibility exists in inner cities and probably also applies to rural criminals as well. At the end of the day, the potential informant may of had a difficult choice:

- OK, my efforts to resolve the issue Amish style in the community have failed...

- Do I make an anonymous complaint that might not stay that anonymous against an individual who might not only be violent, but..... could also be not very bright and thus more likely to go into "over kill" with out thinking of the consequences?

 

[simlyme]

I don't understand. He didn't want JN to get in trouble, but he (Gingrich) was fine to be left dealing with the consequences - all that dead and half dead cattle on his land.

To me it doesn't matter whose cattle it was, stranger's, neighbor's or relative's. Reporting animal abuse, especially at that level, should have been a duty to those who knew about it.

There's MANY people in this situation that are at fault of animal suffering and it SHOULD HAVE been reported and documented better.

Because this was not reported Amish or not, all should be held accountable, I say this because look at what the end result was and is.

Two families lost their loved ones, that is the crime of not staying on top of Nelson and him being protected by many.

The Diemel men paid the price and their families.

I'm getting sick and tired of people making excuses or covering for others. You can only give so many chances, and Nelson was given too many because of the almighty dollar.

I really believe that the Diemels would NEVER treat anyone like that and they paid and will for the rest of their lives and future generations.

If you SEE something ,Say something!!

<modsnip - disparaging a specific religion>

All this comes down to giving Nelson too many chances and people protecting him.
NELSON MUST PAY THE PRICE OF HIS ACTIONS!! HE DROVE THE TRUCK BECAUSE, (..........) Fill in the blank. HE MURDERED THE DIEMELS!!!

My own opinion.

 

[moonflower1]

There's MANY people in this situation that are at fault of animal suffering and it SHOULD HAVE been reported and documented better.

Because this was not reported Amish or not, all should be held accountable, I say this because look at what the end result was and is.

Two families lost their loved ones, that is the crime of not staying on top of Nelson and him being protected by many.

The Diemel men paid the price and their families.

I'm getting sick and tired of people making excuses or covering for others. You can only give so many chances, and Nelson was given too many because of the almighty dollar.

I really believe that the Diemels would NEVER treat anyone like that and they paid and will for the rest of their lives and future generations.

If you SEE something ,Say something!!

And as far some Amish, they don't have the greatest reputation.

It can be seen over and over again with their horses put in kill pens when they've been used to near death or severe health issues.

They view animals differently than most of the general population.

I have had dealings with Amish and their dog breeding and selling and some of them are very unscrupulous They make very large sums of $ breeding dogs and selling them online. Extra cash flow.

When I speak of the Amish, I'm not speaking of ALL, but, a great deal of them.

All this comes down to giving Nelson too many chances and people protecting him.
NELSON MUST PAY THE PRICE OF HIS ACTIONS!! HE DROVE THE TRUCK BECAUSE, (..........) Fill in the blank. HE MURDERED THE DIEMELS!!!

My own opinion.

I agree with your opinion -
Two men could be home with their loved ones if someone would have spoke up

 

[Steelslady]

I don't think it's that the Amish farmer was uncaring about the poor suffering animals. I believe the Amish farmer telling JN's family instead of telling the police represents a clash of different cultural views on how to solve problems. In the Amish community telling the family would have been enough because an Amish family would have punished their son for a stunt like that and then taken care of their animals or sold them. It is a shame those animals suffered needlessly. But IMO we should put the blame squarely on JN who neglected to take care of cattle he was being paid to feed. JN is the lazy, greedy, blankity-blank who let those animals die. JN should have been there daily to tend to them. Instead JN didn't even bother removing the plastic from the hay bales.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that the Amish farmer believed these to be JN's cattle. The farmer was only leasing his land to JN. It was up to JN to feed and tend to the cattle. In the Amish community JN's family would have felt a sense of responsibility to take care of JN's cattle as that would be viewed as their cattle too. If the farmer had known JN was being paid by someone else to feed the cattle then his actions might have been completely different. He might have gone to tell the owners of the cattle instead of JN's family. I know many will disagree with me but I see this more of a cultural clash with the Amish man trying to solve things in a peaceful manner according to his beliefs. Calling the "English" police is a last resort for the Amish. The Amish way backfired because he trusted JN and JN's family to solve the problem.

MOO.

I know a lot about the Amish myself and can back you up on this.

The Amish almost never ever get LE involved in anything- if someone steals from them, breaks into their homes, etc- they never report it. They believe in turning to the community for help with such things and have a huge distrust of LE and some outsiders. It is a cultural thing.

 

[BeckyF]

I know a lot about the Amish myself and can back you up on this.

The Amish almost never ever get LE involved in anything- if someone steals from them, breaks into their homes, etc- they never report it. They believe in turning to the community for help with such things and have a huge distrust of LE and some outsiders. It is a cultural thing.

2 men might be alive if they had reported what they knew. That is why we have laws. JMO.