Mothers and Daughters, in this case.

[Mom2three]

Thanks for the welcome. Although I think KC did this, and she should be held accountable, there is something else so wrong with this picture. I do feel sorry for KC, for the life she could have had if things were different. The life Caylee should have had. There are so many women who have children they didn't want- I teach in the inner city and see incredibly sad things every day. What happened here? And how can the mother, grandmother, grandfather, and uncle just go along with life without breaking down? I had a student, who wasn't even in my classroom, but next to mine and interacted with him every day, die last year and I'm still reeling from it. When I see his sister and her goofy grin, I remember him. How can they live in that house with her smell, her high chair, her hair bows falling out of her drawers? It's the little things that hijack your feelings, and these people seem to have emotions of steel. Imagine growing up in this kind of house. I wonder if the pregnant girlfriend is thinking about all of this.

 

[Mom2three]

I don't think Casey is all that young to have a child. At 18, a person can join the military and be sent to war.
I just have to say, she was not "stuck" anywhere, she chose that lifestyle. She could have gone to work, earned a paycheck, and moved into her own place. She chose to continue to live with mommy and daddy and lie about having a job. This is known as consequences of your actions.
Lanie

But people like KC would not make it in the military. Developmentally, she is not your average 22 year old. Maybe she stopped maturing emotionally when she had Caylee. Who knows?

How many single people do you know that are 22 and have a child and live on their own? Without any welfare benefits? Maybe she didn't want to be in public housing? I'm not saying she shouldn't be held accountable, but in the whole scheme of things, something in that house seemed very wrong. Maybe she wanted to be independent, but her mom wouldn't let her. She held something over her. As a child who grew up in a dysfunctional house, her home life makes mine seem like Disney Land.

 

[jennyb]

Personally, I'm more than pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion if the circumstances warrant.

In this case, not only should CA NOT have forced KC to keep the baby (if indeed that happened - I'm not sure we know that for a fact) but as a responsible mom and a mature adult she should have counseled KC about her options in the 21st century -- as KC was clearly not mom material. Possibly she would never have been the type of person to have children. I never had children because it didn't seem right to me. Not everyone is made for that.

It's possible and quite likely, though, that CA didn't even know KC was pregnant until she was too far along (and I'm not buying as late as 7 months, but still past the first month or so)

And I do believe KC was *terrified* of her mom in a twisted kind of way - Even though CA was permissive in some aspects she also ruled with an iron hand. Maybe she was only permissive when she could be the fixer. She didn't seem to be too kind to KC on a day to day basis... only when she got into trouble... so she could storm in and take control. "I can say and do anything I want to my own children but don't anyone DARE do the same" kind of thing.

Anyway, my whole point is this. Was the *forcing* of KC to keep the baby a moral or religious issue or was it CONTROL? I vote the latter.

Edit to add: I completely respect the people who don't believe in terminating a pregnancy. 100%.

I also wonder, if KC was really that headstrong she would've gone ahead and done it anyway. Legally she didn't have to tell Cindy. So KC was in no way independent, physically, emotionally, financially or psychologically and she was no real rebel. She didn't know her own mind. The psychological entanglement was deep and wide between those two.

 

[jennyb]

I have to admit I don't think this family has any morals at all. I've seen no evidence of that. I only see lying, stealing, cheating and trying to make others lives as miserable as possible. That's where I'm coming from.

 

[Mom2three]

"I also wonder, if KC was really that headstrong she would've gone ahead and done it anyway. Legally she didn't have to tell Cindy. So KC was in no way independent, physically, emotionally, financially or psychologically and she was no real rebel. She didn't know her own mind. The psychological entanglement was deep and wide between those two"


EXACTLY! :clap:

 

[Ann Rule Fan]

Excellent posts and lots to think about. Our now grown daughter had our Granddaughter at 16. Our daughter was a child obviously when she had her daughter, but it changed her and she had to grow up fast and became responsible for herself and her child.
There was a point when she was 17 that I did gain temporary custody but only breifly for very good reasons. Our daughter didn't believe I would do that, but, she found out I would for the sake of my Grandaughter as she didn't ask to be born to a 16 year old mother, whom was but a child at that time herself.
I want to add that I encouraged her to be my Granddaughter's mother from the moment my Granddaughter was born. She didn't want to get up in the middle of the night with my Grandbaby, but, I made her do it. And yes, I recall thinking of all the reasons I should do it for her, but, I held back and she did do it. I guess what I am saying is this, I asked that she register and attend parenting classes and she did. I wanted and encouraged her to be successful at motherhood. I respected her, and didn't want to "take over her child." I had my own three children, and I kept telling myself that.
All happened though after the custody thing, but, I know in my heart she wanted to be a good mother, she was just so young and her friends still had some influence over her as did our Granddaughter's father at that time.
I didn't have the best upbringing, my own mother is an alcoholic boarderline. My Dad God rest his soul was also an alcoholic for many years. So you see things could have turned out so much different for my daughter and I. But, I chose differently for the sake of my own children and lived by that little voice that guided me in the right directions. I wanted stability for my Granddaughter, and knew she wasn't at fault that her Mom was so young.
With much encouragement, my daughter did start College after H.S. and she moved out with my Granddaughter. We continued to give her emotional support and yes, some financial support as well. She is a achiever and wants to succeed at what she does. I knew that, therefore I focused on the tools she would need to help her to be successful. I didn't just " take over" for her, after all our beautiful Granddaughter is her daughter and I always put that in the forefront of my thinking and reasoning and at times lack thereof. As yes, sometimes it was a very heart breaking emotional ride.
Today, our daughter has one more semester until she graduates with her four year degree in Psychology, and has a two year year degree in Forensics. Our Granddaughter is a healthy 9 year old child, and I wouldn't take back one second of any of the decisions that we made to ensure her success as a parent. She went to counseling as well.
I think for me personally, and what my daughter and I were discussing last evening is this. I do not see that KC ever bonded with little Caylee and that is what I seen in the video's. As controlling as C.A. is, I don't think she allowed it to happen the way that it should have. I think she just "TOOK OVER FOR" her. To me all that would have done to my daughter is undermine her every step of the way. Take away her esteem and ensure failure as a parent/person.
I feel there is something between C.A. and KC and am at this time unsure how to put a name on it, but, it is something strong and powerful. As a mother, C.A. knew what is was, and it had been brewing for a very long time, and she encouraged it. I don't know if she encouraged it for the power she felt she had or just did it because she could..There is anger running deep between the two and poor baby Caylee was in the middle of it all...Bless you baby Caylee and may you now rest in peace..

 

[Gma Kat]

This post might get me banned... I hope not. I did post something similar when I first joined and it was deleted immediately so we'll see. I'm more than pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion if the circumstances warrant.

In this case, not only should CA NOT have forced KC to keep the baby (if indeed that happened - I'm not sure we know that for a fact) but as a responsible mom and a mature adult she should have counseled KC about her options in the 21st century -- as KC was clearly not mom material. Possibly she would never have been the type of person to have children. I never had children because it didn't seem right to me. Not everyone is made for that.

It's possible and quite likely, though, that CA didn't even know KC was pregnant until she was too far along (and I'm not buying as late as 7 months, but still past the first month or so)

And I do believe KC was *terrified* of her mom in a twisted kind of way - Even though CA was permissive in some aspects she also ruled with an iron hand. Maybe she was only permissive when she could be the fixer. She didn't seem to be too kind to KC on a day to day basis... only when she got into trouble... so she could storm in and take control. "I can say and do anything I want to my own children but don't anyone DARE do the same" kind of thing.

Anyway, my whole point is this. Was the *forcing* of KC to keep the baby a moral or religious issue or was it CONTROL? I vote the latter.

Edit to add: I completely respect the people who don't believe in terminating a pregnancy. 100%.

I also wonder, if KC was really that headstrong she would've gone ahead and done it anyway. Legally she didn't have to tell Cindy. So KC was in no way independent, physically, emotionally, financially or psychologically and she was no real rebel. She didn't know her own mind. The psychological entanglement was deep and wide between those two.

You have a good point here. I'm not sure why CA told KC she wasn't going to put the child up for adoption, if control was her motivation it sure backfired. I am, well, a grandma, so my age is somewhat over 20-something; I was raised in a step-family with much dysfunction and abuse. Recently I learned my mother gave up a baby when I was 5. I don't remember her being pregnant! I have since met my little sister who was adopted by a wonderful family across the country. Desperation made my mother give her up and it was the best thing that could have happened to her. Thank God she didn't endure the life I did. So my point is - CA, if she "made" KC keep Caylee against her will did her a great injustice considerign the outcome. Another family could have loved her as she deserved. If KC had been "allowed" to have an abortion (is FL an abortion state? If so why did KC need CA approval?) Caylee would have been sent straight to heaven and not touched so many lives - but would have been spared perhaps a horrible death. (I'm praying she was chloroformed so that she didn't suffer) Anyhow, thanks for the thought provoking post.

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

I think you have some excellent points.

I also remember Cindy going on about Klee's personality - a baby picture - she'd look right at you and you better do right or she'd know - or some such - giving me the impression that as the child started to talk she might have been telling on her mom.

However, from my experience grandparents having to raise grandkids is nothing new under the sun. My own husband was raised by his great grandma b/c neither his mom or his grandmom were very responsible. Oh, there were a lot of kids I knew where grandma was the one that watched them or kept mom straight enough to do it.

Grandparents have been vital for a long time - but perhaps especially so since divorce and single parenthood became so widespread, and that's been a while now.

Wow - maybe people have said this before, but, I haven't seen it. I think this might just be the main motive. We have talked about the getting back at Cindy, etc., but, wow, does this make sense. Caylee could have or been about to say "no Zannie, I sleep in the car when I am with Mommie."

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Just as a comment about Mothers and Daughters, well My mother is dead (cry) but I have a MIL, Im lucky to get once a week *babysitting* for a few hrs.
In Australia its not common to hand off the baby to the grandparents.
Well maybe thats because I mix in the *older mum* circle LOL
Maybe young kids do hand them over to their parents?

I do know that donkeys years ago life was a lot different where the whole family was involved, there was always family functions and family readily willing to help..
These days everyone is to damn busy WORKING To BUY EVERYTHING !!!
Everyone is too busy going here going there

Whatever happened to family ?

Just a thought. I am a "trendy" older mother. When I had my daughter 11 years ago, I worried that I would be the only mother amongst friends, and, for a short time I was. But, the weird thing is many of my friends "have" children now and basically peers for my child. The difference - they have their grandchildren. One is actually raising hers, the others just have them a lot.

ETA a couple more thoughts. My mother grew up in a home with grandparents. Her grandparents (and when she was very young, her great gran) lived on the family farm. When her parents married, they moved in as her father was the eldest son. My grandmother lived for many years as the second woman of the house, her children were basically grown and out of the home (except for her youngest, who was a change of life baby) before she became the woman of the house. My mother did not grow up confused over who her mother was. It was the norm in her rural community in the Midwest for extended family to live together.

I had major health problems during and just after my pregnancy. My mother moved in with us for about 6 weeks and I don't know what we would have done otherwise. She has always played a major role in my daughter's life, but, there is no confusion with her over who is the Mama. In fact she is packing to go to my parents for a few days right now! Family still plays a role in many people's lives. And the children are the better for it, IMO.

 

[Mom2three]

I wonder if KC thought of Caylee as an annoying little sister she had to babysit. I agree with a PP that it seemed that they never bonded. If she had PPD, it can be difficult to bond. I know from experience, as I had it twice, and KNEW that I didn't have the bond with the last two babies that I had with my first. But I'm also in my late 30s and have a network of caring family and co-workers who noticed a change in my personality due to the depression.

Who wouldn't be depressed in her shoes- living at home, watching everyone else live their life, while she sits at home and PMs and texts people, while watching her daughter.

MOO

 

[Lisa-Rachelle]

I believe in my heart of hearts that Cindy LOVED Caylee to the ends of the earth. I really do.

However, I also feel that both she and Casey probably pitted Caylee against eachother, in less obvious ways. So, in my opinion, Caylee was probably emotionally abused in a way....being the "middle person" between a mother and daughter with such a clearly disfuctional relationship.
Just the facts we know already, how Cindy considered petitioning for custody and Casey very deliberately would keep Caylee away from her parents when she was angry at them signifies a pattern that was probably present from the time Caylee was just a baby.

Casey certainly displays characteristics of someone who is sociopathic, as well as perhaps psychopathic. Personality disorders are not mental illness per se....and I don't feel that Cindy or George and how they parented could have prevented or aggrevated Casey's state of mind. I know Freud was all about "mommy" and blamed any mental defect on mothering....but I don't necessarily buy that.
We know very little about Lee Anthony, but he appears to be more balanced than his sister. Does that mean they were parented very differently? I doubt it. If anything, Casey was probably favored simply because she was the youngest.

Mother/Daughter relationships are generally more tumultuous than Father/Son and Father/Daughter ones are. Most grown women I know complain most about the state of things between themselves and their mother than with anyone else. I believe that issues beginning in pre-adolesence likely carried over into adulthood with Casey; and the insult to injury was being TOLD by her mother that she was going to have the baby, and live there with the family so they could help care for her.
The outside perspective would be that it was a logical, positive decision....but emotionally there was a lot of CONTROL STRUGGLE there. Each woman vying for the opportunity to the the alpha female in regards to Caylee's life.

Do I believe that Casey would have caused her daughter's untimely death had she NOT been so close (both emotionally and physically) with her parents? It's difficult to say. I think she HAD a love and care for that sweet little girl, but she also had these desires to experience a level of independence she had been robbed of (not that it wasn't her own doing).


I am NOT going to "blame" Cindy for the tragic events surrounding Caylee's passing. Regardless of the type of relationship Casey and Cindy had during their life; it should be the responsibility of each person to seek guidance and advice to let go or rememdy those situations. We cannot use the actions of people in our lives as scapegoats for our choices.

 

[gardenhart]

I don't think Casey is all that young to have a child. At 18, a person can join the military and be sent to war.
I just have to say, she was not "stuck" anywhere, she chose that lifestyle. She could have gone to work, earned a paycheck, and moved into her own place. She chose to continue to live with mommy and daddy and lie about having a job. This is known as consequences of your actions.
Lanie

But people like KC would not make it in the military. Developmentally, she is not your average 22 year old. Maybe she stopped maturing emotionally when she had Caylee. Who knows?

How many single people do you know that are 22 and have a child and live on their own? Without any welfare benefits? Maybe she didn't want to be in public housing? I'm not saying she shouldn't be held accountable, but in the whole scheme of things, something in that house seemed very wrong. Maybe she wanted to be independent, but her mom wouldn't let her. She held something over her. As a child who grew up in a dysfunctional house, her home life makes mine seem like Disney Land.

I don't know why so many seem to think she was a teenaged mother, like she was 16 and still in high school. If she was pregnant when she was 19 she must have been 20 when she had Caylee or close to it. She's 23 now and Caylee would have been 3.

 

[Friday]

I would sum up my feelings in this short way:

In a lifelong battle for control and supremacy between Cindy and Casey, little Caylee ended up being "collateral damage." How tragic. How inexcuseable.

 

[jeepgirlva]

I've been away for a while due to a move so have not been posting but have been reading as I've had internet access intermittently through the moves, finally got settled in. And this case has just blown me away, like a blizzard. I seriously have so much to say, it's too overwhelming, but want to vent on what I see as the central issue to this case- this is nothing new, I've seen it said here in my lurking, and I want to make it clear this is to discuss family dynamics and their impact on this case- not to BLAME anyone, or to EXCUSE any wrongdoings/crimes, or to point the finger at parenting/grandparenting. It just strikes me that in this generation there seems to be a huge cultural breakdown among families, especially mothers and daughters (and grandmothers). Does this make sense? It just seems this generation sees a lot of families that have poor dynamics that get out of control when a grandchild comes into the picture and I am thinking that will have a lot to do with this case if and when the truth comes out, if Casey ever admits what she's done truthfully and Cindy admits her own actions as well. I do NOT believe Cindy was in on what happened to Caylee, and I do believe that there is something with Casey (personality disorder?)

But jeez. Some of this hits home enough that I get a feel that both Cindy and Casey fueled these events. It doesn't make it understandable to me at all that Caylee would come to physical harm. But all I can think is how unhealthy the relationships were here, how poor Caylee was innocent in it, and how if the problems had been acknowledged or dealt with in the first place this would not have happened and that fact lies on Casey, Cindy, and everyone else who witnessed anything or was a party to it. NOT to place blame, just having a discussion.

This post will end up too long if I elaborate all here but in a nutshell it seems--
1. CA and KC had a toxic relationship.
2. KC - "it's all about me" seemed to resent her mother yet at the same time, want to be coddled and doted on
3. KC seems not to have wanted to have Caylee- it's said she wanted to let someone adopt her, but Cindy had a big role in that not happening.
4. Then when KC kept Caylee, she wanted to have a partying and irresponsible lifestyle- and CA overstepped some boundaries in the way she treated KC and took over Caylee which fueled more resentment from KC.

Etc. I am not blaming as there is no excuse for what ultimately happened. However, 2 grown adults, KC and Cindy--what's going on there, Cindy would criticise KC in front of Caylee no doubt and undermine her feelings as a parent which had to make things worse, any way you look at it, I speak from experience- there is something WAY wrong when a grandmother and mother are bickering and putting their hands on each other and fighting in front of, and over, a child. It was just a toxic relationship with overstepping of boundaries on one side, and a mother on the other end who lied and had such bad and irresponsible behavior that she didn't need to be a caretaker to a child anyway, look what happened! I have no doubt the fighting between KC and Cindy had an effect here. I want to clarify, I don't blame Cindy, I'd want to choke KC too! But all I am thinking is that the both of them for shame, it's just NOT appropriate to have this going on around a poor, defenseless, innocent, IMPRESSIONABLE child.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. This generation just seems to have a lot of young ladies who have kids and then end up not half raising them on their own, and so many grandparents stepping in and doing a lot of what seems to be raising their grandkids AND still raising/supervising their own 20-something adult kids too. This has got to be confusing to a child, who has a mother in her life but also has a grandmother who takes on a lot of the roles a mother would have beyond the boundary of being a grandparent, where the child witnesses the dynamic between the grandparent and their parent. Lines blur, conflict occurs......

And the bottom line is- in my opinion- poor Caylee would have been better off out of this situation, maybe in an open adoption situation where Cindy could have been in her life in a role and KC as well but there would not have been all that conflict and KC would not have been trying to party so much and burdened down by a child she wasn't taking the best care of.

Any comments? And oh yeah--not to mention Caylee growing up not knowing her father and with her father not knowing about her? With no chance to know another set of grandparents and a father figure? I'm not judging but I think poor Caylee, the ONE whose side I am on in all of this, had a tough set of cirumstances, God rest her soul. I hope this post is not seen as controversial, I am just venting my feelings about this case because it seems to me this all had a LOT to do with what ended up happening, as I think KC might have harmed Caylee out of resentment for Cindy which is not Cindy's fault but there were some issues on that end as well- the bottom line is that KC has to be mentally ill or sociopathic to have had ANY motive in hurting Caylee OR to cover up an accidental death and dump her. A normal person would not hurt someone....and would call for help if an accident happened. Again without blame, I honestly don't think anyone in this family's shown what I consider to be normal reactions here........however I do feel a lot of compassion and empathy for GA and CA and LA for having lost Caylee. KC not so much because I think it was her fault or maybe even planned. I would probably still even feel for KC if she seemed devastated or regretful that her baby is dead, but she shows nothing.

I think mother and daughters are one of the most complicated relationships Ive had my share of ups and downs with my mother and my daughter. Out of this tradegy there are many lesson to learn.

 

[H_Chick]

Personally, I'm more than pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion if the circumstances warrant.

In this case, not only should CA NOT have forced KC to keep the baby (if indeed that happened - I'm not sure we know that for a fact) but as a responsible mom and a mature adult she should have counseled KC about her options in the 21st century -- as KC was clearly not mom material. Possibly she would never have been the type of person to have children. I never had children because it didn't seem right to me. Not everyone is made for that.

JennyB, Ive got to agree with you here and btw respect your lifechoice and honesty in saying you did NOT reproduce because it didnt seem right - too many people never even think about that.

I also am NOT pro abortion, but I say if the circumstances fit, then it should be considered an option.
KC did NOT have to keep Caylee when she discovered she was pregnant with her, but she was 19/20ish, and maybe it was just one more novelty at that time.
I have to also agree that CinA is an EXTREMELY complex woman, and I dont know if it would be interesting or scarey to be able to peel away the layers there to find out what makes her tick. I also think that JBean may have hit something when she said that CinA may have felt it was the chance to have a mother-child relationship, and possibly do it BETTER than she had with her own daughter.
You have to ask yourself how poor Caylee would have turned out in the end if she had lived through to adulthood with a steerage committee comprised of CinA and KC, and no I dont think that her life would necessarily have been better had she been left with CinA to raise her. It may well be that she also could have been a basket case by the time she hit 20.

Someone once wrote somewhere that we ALL *advertiser censored** up our children to a certain extent, whether we mean to or not, and although I dont believe everyones situations are as twisted as KCs or CinAs, or even my own mother as laid out in my post earlier in this thread, I do think most of us unwittingly hand on some of our worst traits as well as our best traits to our children, but as adults we all have choices - we are free to replicate and compound our parents mistakes and say "I am a product of my environment, the whole world is against me", or we are free to say I choose to do differently.
Sadly that self recognition doesnt come for some till they are much older, or maybe not at all.

 

[DotsEyes]

If you ask me, I think KC was physically and emotionally abused as a child. I think she grew up in a house with a lot of fighting and she was hit a lot. (CA didn't just start attacking her on the 15th with choking her - it has been a life long issue).

I think KC just had enough of being attacked at home about everything she did, didn't do, was and wasn't, combined with her total inablility to fend for herself in any aspect of her life. She was trapped and has been trying to get out of that house for a long time, she simply didn't know how to go about it. She isn't a mental giant.

 

[affinity]

I am new .....this is my first post.

I am pretty interested in the Mother/Daughter aspect of this! My screen name has to do with having an affinity for the BAD Mother/Daughter relationship. Luckily, for everyone, I did not have a child to bring into the horrible situation I/we had. I agree with the poster who thinks both mother and daughter are "borderline" (Borderline Personality Disorder). I recognize it!

As a latecomer...can someone give me a link to a synopsis of events that is clear and concise? I don't understand a few things about early events.

Thank you!

 

[Egoslayer]

I hate sounding like a broken record, but there are many borderliners that don't kill their children or do anything illegal, they just have a bad sense of self, along with all the other symptoms. IMO, they are not sociopaths ..

 

[affinity]

I hate sounding like a broken record, but there are many borderliners that don't kill their children or do anything illegal, they just have a bad sense of self, along with all the other symptoms. IMO, they are not sociopaths ..

right. I would imagine there are many different levels of the disorder from mild to severe. In a Mother/Daughter relationship discussion thread the observation that Mother and Daughter both fit criteria for BPD and narcissism seems justifiable.

 

[LCoastMom]

Some posts respectfully snipped for space.

Excellent posts and lots to think about. Our now grown daughter had our Granddaughter at 16.
There was a point when she was 17 that I did gain temporary custody but only breifly for very good reasons. Our daughter didn't believe I would do that, but, she found out I would for the sake of my Granddaughter as she didn't ask to be born to a 16 year old mother, whom was but a child at that time herself.
I want to add that I encouraged her to be my Granddaughter's mother from the moment my Granddaughter was born. She didn't want to get up in the middle of the night with my Grandbaby, but, I made her do it. And yes, I recall thinking of all the reasons I should do it for her, but, I held back and she did do it. I guess what I am saying is this, I asked that she register and attend parenting classes and she did. I wanted and encouraged her to be successful at motherhood. I respected her, and didn't want to "take over her child." I had my own three children, and I kept telling myself that.

I didn't have the best upbringing, my own mother is an alcoholic boarderline. My Dad God rest his soul was also an alcoholic for many years. So you see things could have turned out so much different for my daughter and I. But, I chose differently for the sake of my own children and lived by that little voice that guided me in the right directions. I wanted stability for my Granddaughter, and knew she wasn't at fault that her Mom was so young.
With much encouragement, my daughter did start College after H.S. and she moved out with my Granddaughter. We continued to give her emotional support and yes, some financial support as well. She is a achiever and wants to succeed at what she does. I knew that, therefore I focused on the tools she would need to help her to be successful. I didn't just " take over" for her, after all our beautiful Granddaughter is her daughter and I always put that in the forefront of my thinking and reasoning and at times lack thereof. As yes, sometimes it was a very heart breaking emotional ride.
I wouldn't take back one second of any of the decisions that we made to ensure her success as a parent.

I believe your post makes several excellent points regarding the complicated relationships mothers and daughters share. It also points out it doesn't matter if your parents were lacking in some very important ways, you still developed a very nurturing style with your own kids and gently guided them to do the same.

Good parenting isn't about doing things the easy way, it's all about doing things the right way. Like letting your daughter get up with her baby in the middle of the night, when every ounce of your desire to be a mother to your child is screaming "Oh, let her sleep, I can do this."

Hind sight is 20/20 but none of us are forced to make poor decisions in the first place, that little nagging voice in the back of our heads is there for a reason. It is to encourage us to do the right thing. It sounds like you have done a wonderful job raising your children to be responsible adults, using consequences when they made poor choices but continuing to support them and to believe in them, while teaching them to believe in themselves.

I think mother and daughters are one of the most complicated relationships Ive had my share of ups and downs with my mother and my daughter. Out of this tradegy there are many lesson to learn.

If this is true, which I believe it to be also, in my opinion it absolves Cindy from all responsibility in Caylee's death. Many of us go through some difficult times in the mother daughter conjunction. Children born during the turbulent
years frequently are used as a pawn, thankfully most parents don't use the route KC has taken to show her mommy who really was in charge.

Part of growing up is to grow away from our parents in the sense of needing physical, emotional and financial care on a daily basis. It's necessary for both sides in order to have a mutually respectful adult relationship. It doesn't appear to me KC ever took these steps. She was still completely reliant on her parents and she made Caylee dependent on them too. At the same time she wanted to be treated like an adult, to live her life in the manner she chose. For parents and grandparents this would be a tough position to be in. You want to treat your child with respect, especially in front of the grandchild but your child is doing nothing to earn the respect. I would imagine this was the basis of most of the family feuds.

I wonder if KC thought of Caylee as an annoying little sister she had to babysit. I agree with a PP that it seemed that they never bonded. If she had PPD, it can be difficult to bond.

Who wouldn't be depressed in her shoes- living at home, watching everyone else live their life, while she sits at home and PMs and texts people, while watching her daughter.

MOO

I think you nailed how KC felt about Caylee, she was annoying. During an IM session with Amy, KC says her mother owes her when they talk about plans to go out with CA babysitting. When she wants to hook up with TR, KC was angry with her mother for not being home to watch Caylee.

KC was given a complete psych evaluation before she was allowed to be bonded out the first time. I believe if she had PPD, that would have been found during the examination. KC 'bragged' to Family Services that she was found to be psychologically healthy, when they did her in home study.

All of the friends KC had at the time Caylee was born state she was a loving mother who would never harm her child. Early on in the investigation one of KC's oldest friends talked about KC breast feeding Caylee and what a loving mom KC was on NG. Doesn't sound like PPD to me.

Who wouldn't be depressed living KC's life? All of the women who long to have children but for whatever reason can't. All of the women who would like nothing better than to stay at home with their children but due to financial responsibilities that come with children must go to work everyday. All of the young girls whose parents kick them out to the street when they come home single and pregnant. Anyone currently living in a shelter because they can't afford to keep a roof over their child's head.

KC manufactured the life she was living, no one was preventing her from getting a job, going to school and making anything she wanted out of her life. If she wasn't happy with her situation she had no one to blame but herself!!

I would sum up my feelings in this short way:

In a lifelong battle for control and supremacy between Cindy and Casey, little Caylee ended up being "collateral damage." How tragic. How inexcuseable.

How very well put.