My view has done a complete 180

[Compassionate Reader]

ij,

If you will notice from the testimony of Dr. Wilkins that you quoted, he is referring to the performance portion of the IQ as I said, not the total IQ. As I said before, an IQ test has two components, one of which is performance (how the subject functions in society, basically). That portion does not measure reasoning ability.

As to "trading quotes," I am not doing that because it's "fun and diverting." I am interested in this case because justice has not been served. There is an innocent man on Death Row, and two more in prison for life - hardly the stuff of which fun and diversion are made.

You can (and will) believe what you wish about Michelle Echols and the black trench coat. In fact, you can (and will) believe what you wish about the innocence of the WM3. However, if you want to have a true picture of the situation, don't read just the trial transcripts. Read the pretrial hearing transcripts and the documents available from the Pasdar suit. Read the Rule 37 abstracts. Most importantly, follow the evidentiary hearing in December with an open mind. You may be surprised at what you will learn.

 

[Cappuccino]

Of course I have wondered what may have occurred, and what i truly do believe happened is something similar to the scene in "Stand by Me" when Kiefer Sutherland's character and friends confront the group of boys in the woods. I believe there was a confrontation, and a simple *advertiser censored* beating went too far, driven by Damian's desire to shock and awe, and show how crazy and bad he was..and Jason and Jesse's desire to show they were able to "hang".

So you don't believe Jessie's confessions then? Jessie claims to have been part of a Satanic cult, and attended esbats where an older guy was preaching at them to commit ritual murder and suck blood to get power. He also claims they were holding orgies up in the woods, killing and eating dogs and stalking and photographing these particular three children. He also describes Jason, not Damien, as the most violent of the three.

Now that Satanic Panic has receded, I'm sure the prosecution would love to run with your less far fetched scenario of a teenage thrill kill, unfortunately that's not the crime Jessie describes. And let's face it, without Jessie's confessions what do the prosecution really have? Especially as your idea would render the candle wax irrelevant too.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Also, if the State tries to switch the motive to "thrill kill" at this late date, they will have the problem of the hiding of the bodies. IIRC, thrill killers usually leave their "work" on display for everyone to see. It's part of the thrill, you know. Whatever else anyone says about this crime, one thing is for sure: the bodies were not left on display. That will make the idea of a thrill kill a hard sell, not to mention the fact that Jessi's stories don't say that it was a thrill kill.

 

[I Must Break You]

I've read all the pro material and once was. I had never bothered to read the actual transcripts and facts. Then watching the docs again, I remember beinf creeped out by Damien and amazed at some of the things he said - but I put that aside. I see him differently now.

What do the pro WM3's have to say about Damien's failed lie detector test and the passing of Michael Carson's? They blow it off as not being credible.

However, if Damien had passed and Carson failed, they'd be singing it from the rooftops.

The facts speak for themselves.

Lie Detector tests are completely unreliable from my experience. I was applying to be a police officer right out of the Army and took a polygraph and didn't get that job due to showing deception on a question that I know for an absolute fact that I did not lie on. Later I applied to another department and got that job after passing the polygraph there and was asked the exact same question and no deception was shown. So I don't trust them at all.

 

[Satch]

In all honesty,

I am still on the fence, but if I was a juror in a retrial, I would be forced to have reasonable doubt and acquit the WM3 because:

There was no DNA of the defendants found at the crime scene
There is too much heresy in who said what on all sides
DNA of Terry Hobbs was found at the crime scene, but not any DNA from the WM3.

For those who believe the WM3 are guilty, what is your explanation for the above particulars?

But I am NOT convinced of their innocence either. Can anyone refresh my memory about Damian's necklace with blood on it and to what that was linked? I had seen Paradise Lost I and II, and believed that Byers was the killer. However, that has since changed.

The foundation of this case still resides on a very small town, with very simple views of religion and superstition, made up of larely an uneducated community. You have a very "Little House on the Prairie" type of community or "The Waltons" type of environment where speculation had a way of becoming fact. One person hears something and then the whole town knowns about it in a strong "Bible Belt" community.

Note that this is NOTHING against the good people of the community. It is simply the circumstances in which these defendants were accused, tried, and convicted.

What is the highest grade that each of the boys completed? What discipline problems at school did they have?

I think we now have to concern ourselves with the future. In my mind, I am suspicious of Damien, but not so much of the other two. I don't believe Jessie was retarded. I have heard him speak. He's not an idiot. At best, I see him as a nervous, very mellow-type personality who simply might do poorly on tests.

I think that the WM3 SHOULD work to prove their innocence to people still convinced of their guilt as well as fence-sitters like myself. A full investigation needs to be implemented of Terry Hobbs. I believe he MAY be guilty because of his DNA found at the crime scene. Mr. Hobbs was known to abuse his stepson Stevie Branch, his wife Pam, and it has been said he assaulted a neighbor. Mr. Hobbs was still the last person to see the boys alive that day. And that is also an image that I can't erase from my mind.

Maybe the WM3 if innocent could provide clues that will finally prove that they are innocent. However, I don't know how they disperse from the beliefs and the views of this community to make that happen. It's almost like, to prove their innocence, they are going to almost have to show a video tape or DVD of someone else at the crime scene committing this murder.

Satch

 

[iluvmua]

I don't understand why they didn't just wait a couple of months until the hearing.

I think Damien will be the first one to screw up.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I don't understand why they didn't just wait a couple of months until the hearing.

I think Damien will be the first one to screw up.

It wouldn't have been just a couple of months. Most conservative estimates said at least two years before they would've been released. No one's going to "screw up" as you so delicately put it; they'll simply get on with their lives.

 

[claudicici]

....as far as the necklace is concerned it had a tiny speck of blood that matched Stevie's bloodtype along with a high percentage of the rest of the population,for example it also matched Jason,who frequently wore the necklace.

......as far as the trenchcoat,I'm sure if it really would have been missing the LE would have made a big deal about it but they didn't.It was on his sisters bedroom floor the day he was arrested.

....as far as "screwing" up,I am worried mostly about Jessie.It's not that I think he's going to go out and kill someone but any minor defense will make him head straight back to prison.The environment he is in and him being a hothead along with his lower IQ really worries me.

I think Damien is going to continue writing (at least I hope so) and I think Jason is going to do awesome.I really think he is the one that will fight hardest to bring some sort of justice to this case.
I'm not going to stop hoping that the real killer(s) is found but I also wished LE would have to pay or there have to be regulations on how to work a case so this will never happen again.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

....as far as the necklace is concerned it had a tiny speck of blood that matched Stevie's bloodtype along with a high percentage of the rest of the population,for example it also matched Jason,who frequently wore the necklace.

......as far as the trenchcoat,I'm sure if it really would have been missing the LE would have made a big deal about it but they didn't.It was on his sisters bedroom floor the day he was arrested.

....as far as "screwing" up,I am worried mostly about Jessie.It's not that I think he's going to go out and kill someone but any minor defense will make him head straight back to prison.The environment he is in and him being a hothead along with his lower IQ really worries me.

I think Damien is going to continue writing (at least I hope so) and I think Jason is going to do awesome.I really think he is the one that will fight hardest to bring some sort of justice to this case.
I'm not going to stop hoping that the real killer(s) is found but I also wished LE would have to pay or there have to be regulations on how to work a case so this will never happen again.

I also hope that Damien continues to write. Jason was somewhat of an artist before all this happened. Maybe he could continue to pursue that outlet. Jessie has a lot of family support, so I'm starting to feel better about him.

 

[deelytful1]

The opening post in this thread mentions "Crowley" I'm tired and being lazy right now, but was this the same "Mr Crowley" Ozzy sung about that was purported to be a devil worshipper and proclaimed himself a seer?
If so, OMG I had friends back in the day that thought this was so "cool" to do (talk of Crowley and pretend to have "satan worshipping" get togethers) and half of them are doctors/lawyers/moms, etc now!

 

[claudicici]

well,I still think Aleister Crowley was pretty cool indeed
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley"]Aleister Crowley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Aleister_Crowley_2.png" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Aleister_Crowley_2.png/240px-Aleister_Crowley_2.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/6f/Aleister_Crowley_2.png/240px-Aleister_Crowley_2.png[/ame]

 

[LunaticFringe]

well,I still think Aleister Crowley was pretty cool indeed
Aleister Crowley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I thought he was cool when I was 14 after listening to the song Mr.Crowley.

I then started reading more and more about him.He was a disturbed vile human being.He's about as cool as Anton LeVay and his satanic bible that I read and wasted a perfectly good Sunday in doing so.

 

[LunaticFringe]

The opening post in this thread mentions "Crowley" I'm tired and being lazy right now, but was this the same "Mr Crowley" Ozzy sung about that was purported to be a devil worshipper and proclaimed himself a seer?
If so, OMG I had friends back in the day that thought this was so "cool" to do (talk of Crowley and pretend to have "satan worshipping" get togethers) and half of them are doctors/lawyers/moms, etc now!

Indeed it is the same song..This is not a song about Aleister being praised.It's the opposite.Back in the day us teenagers had it all wrong.What was cool back in the day is rather embarrassing today because we weren't listening to the actual meanings behind the song.My Mother thought Black Sabbath was a satanic band until I made her listen to their song After Forever.

My favorite verse of Mr.Crowley......

Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head
(Oh) Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead
Your lifestyle to me seems so tragic
With the thrill of it all
You fooled all the people with magic
(Yeah)You waited on Satan's call

A tragic lifestyle indeed.

 

[SheBoss]

In all honesty,

I am still on the fence, but if I was a juror in a retrial, I would be forced to have reasonable doubt and acquit the WM3 because:

Satch, I can move over and you can come sit on my fence with me, if you want...

 

[SheBoss]

Indeed it is the same song..This is not a song about Aleister being praised.It's the opposite.Back in the day us teenagers had it all wrong.What was cool back in the day is rather embarrassing today because we weren't listening to the actual meanings behind the song.My Mother thought Black Sabbath was a satanic band until I made her listen to their song After Forever.

My favorite verse of Mr.Crowley......

Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head
(Oh) Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead
Your lifestyle to me seems so tragic
With the thrill of it all
You fooled all the people with magic
(Yeah)You waited on Satan's call

A tragic lifestyle indeed.

You know, thank you, Lunatic. I've always heard this song, but I've never paid attention to the lyrics. You learned me something today

 

[claudicici]

I thought he was cool when I was 14 after listening to the song Mr.Crowley.

I then started reading more and more about him.He was a disturbed vile human being.He's about as cool as Anton LeVay and his satanic bible that I read and wasted a perfectly good Sunday in doing so.

I know this is not the place to discuss our personal preferences and you are right he did some vile things but I still appreciate how in that time he shook things up and introduced "Do what thou wilt" to a society that was morally suppressed.I'm not a Satanist but neither am I a christian.
I don't think "The Satanic Bible" is a literary masterpiece but I personally like the concept of I am my own god.I just feel you should still be kind and be able to empathize and help out others....just IMO and sorry to be OT.

 

[PeteJ]

BBM
I'm not sure DE killed those boys, but psychosis IS a "severe mental illness," much more so than uncomplicated bipolar disorder. From his psych history, it is apparent that he would be (would have been) at least CAPABLE of committing the murders.

Absolutely and thank you for your post, mental illness doesn't get worse than psychosis.

 

[PeteJ]

I also hope that Damien continues to write. Jason was somewhat of an artist before all this happened. Maybe he could continue to pursue that outlet. Jessie has a lot of family support, so I'm starting to feel better about him.

If DE was truly psychotic (and not due to drugs) he is the one we should be concerned about. Hopefully, all three young men will make a life for themselves and be healthy and prosper. Thats all we can ask.

 

[Livvy]

I am really getting sick of "TH did it because his dna was there." How can one include this evidence but not the fibers that kind of matched the WM3 families. They are both not great evidence. The Dna only matched 2 bands and in a court of law that is not a match is it??
I wonder why everyone seems to believe its either black or white. Somewhere in the middle you find grey and usually the truth too.
Does anyone know why LG hasn't been websleuthed? There doesn't seem to be alot of info of him on the net so I assume that is why he hasn't been touched on as much? He is a very likely suspect, especially with all the lying he did to the police. I have a feeling that if he were stilll alive, that we would be discussing him more today that TH.

 

[SheBoss]

I am really getting sick of "TH did it because his dna was there." How can one include this evidence but not the fibers that kind of matched the WM3 families. They are both not great evidence. The Dna only matched 2 bands and in a court of law that is not a match is it??
I wonder why everyone seems to believe its either black or white. Somewhere in the middle you find grey and usually the truth too.
Does anyone know why LG hasn't been websleuthed? There doesn't seem to be alot of info of him on the net so I assume that is why he hasn't been touched on as much? He is a very likely suspect, especially with all the lying he did to the police. I have a feeling that if he were stilll alive, that we would be discussing him more today that TH.

OK Now - who is LG? I'm still learning the people associated with this case.