My view has done a complete 180

[Compassionate Reader]

jt,

That video didn't make me see a "heartless killer." Again, I see a confused and scared teen. The reality of prison is sinking in, and he feels hopeless because he knows he's innocent. Since he was deemed guilty by the town before his trial, he is correct in saying that there was nothing different he could have done to change his fate at that time. Thank God that good attorneys are now on his side and are working diligently to free him from his unjust incarceration. What I see in this video is that, even in his extreme situation, he has a strong personality and a desire to be an individual. Since when is that a crime?

cami,

"Oh there's always new evidence. It's coming any day now. Any day now, they'll be freed. Blah Blah Blah It's typical defence bs. Oh and it's always a secret. I'm still waiting for the new evidence that will free some of these killers that have been in prison for eons."

Should the defense reveal the evidence before the hearing? I don't think so. Of course much of it is being kept secret. Where are those test results from the "secret" testing the State conducted?

"He was psychotic..big difference from being a "troubled teen." He was probably delusional too, the two go hand in hand."

It's only your opinion that he was psychotic. And, as I said before, if he were as mentally ill as you want to believe, why did the hospital release him? As to him being delusional, he's probably a bit paranoid by now after so long on Death Row and in virtual isolation, but delusional? I don't think so. I think that by now he pretty much knows the score.

"ITA, I found him articulate as well. If he's retarded than I am a genius."

I presume that, because you found him to be articulate, then he's not retarded? What is your training to make such a judgment? The school had him in Special Education classes from an early age. As a retired teacher, I know that it is not easy to place a child in Special Education classes. Getting someone labeled with a deficiency is not hard, but getting someone into the dedicated Special Education classes is very difficult because they are trying to "mainstream" these students whenever possible. As to you being a genius, well, the jury is still out on that one.

"This is typical defence rhetoric."

And what you say is typical non rhetoric.

"His dna was found at the crime scene because one of his hairs was found in his son's shoelace."

First, we don't know whose shoelace it was. Circumstantial evidence (the fact that the two laces binding Michael each only had sheaths on one end) indicates that the shoelace in which the Hobbs hair was found is actually part of an approximately 60 inch lace that was cut in half to bind Michael. No child's shoe has a lace approximately 60 inches long. So, that particular lace was probably not from one of the boys' shoes. Second, you might try to justify Hobbs' mtDNA as secondary transfer, but what about Jacoby's mtDNA?

"How do you know he did his best to avoid the police? Were you there? No, you weren't so that's only heresay isn't it?"

I know that he left town before the arrests were made, during the ongoing investigation. I know that, when the officer was taking the missing persons report from Dana Moore, Hobbs made no effort to report his own step son missing. I know that police records indicate that he was not at home whenever they came to talk to him. To me, that makes it appear that he is avoiding the police.

"Who says he's lying?"

Well, he said that he didn't see the boys that day, but witnesses have since come forward saying that they saw him with the boys at about 6:30 pm on May 5th. David Jacoby said that he wasn't searching with Terry between 6:30 and 7:00 when Terry stated that they were together. There are more examples of Terry's lies, but I'll stop there.

"Where is the constant anger from the three who are allegegly wrongly convicted?"

The three young men falsely imprisoned are fighting for their release. Loudly proclaiming their innocence would not be beneficial at this time. In other words, "constant anger" won't help them; good attorneys will.

"The Candy Man had accomplices too. They were the little boys he molested. they recruited for him. Oh wrong Candy Man, I'm talking of Dean Coril I think his name is"

Yeah, Dean Coril was a really scary man. However, I never remember hearing him referred to as The Candy Man. I thought at first you had The Candy Man confused with another jewel in the Texas landscape, Henry Lee Lucas. Boy, Texas has more than it's share of murderers, doesn't it?

"He's probably on some pretty heavy anti-psychotic meds. They don't want him acting crazy on the row. But I agree with you there is a darkness about him and he just cannot keep that arrogance under control."

I don't think he's on medication now. Also, I'm sorry, but I don't see any "darkness about him" now or then. Then he was just an arrogant and confused teen. Now he's just an intelligent and gentle man who needs to be released so he can get on with his life.

December will not come soon enough for me. I can only imagine how the three falsely imprisoned young men must feel. Again, I just hope that the State of Arkansas pursues the evidence that I am confident will be presented at the hearing and arrests, tries and convicts the real killer of the three little boys who have waited for justice for almost two decades.

 

[Mary456]

Compassionate Reader: He may be bipolar.

Except that he wasn’t diagnosed as bipolar (except by supporters). He was diagnosed as having a psychotic disorder with auditory and visual hallucinations.


Compassionate Reader: I hardly think that qualifies for "severe mental illness" or the hospital would not have released him.

Tell that to Andrea Yates.


Compassionate Reader: I don't think he's psychotic. Neurotic, maybe, but many people suffer from neuroses.

Except that he wasn’t diagnosed as neurotic (except by you). He was diagnosed as having a psychotic disorder.

I’ll try to bump the thread with his mental health history. If I can’t find it, I’ll just repost. Perhaps you haven’t had a chance to read Exhibit 500 yet.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Mary,

Yes, I've read Exhibit 500, the nons' Bible apparently. No diagnosis of any type of mental illness proves that Damien was a murderer. Again, there is no physical evidence that links him to the discovery ditch. All this talk of what Damien's mental health issues were is a weak attempt to cover up the absolute lack of hard evidence against him.

BTW, the last time I heard about Andrea Yates she was in a mental hospital. I don't think that she'll ever get out, either. Even if she did, I don't believe that she would be a threat to anyone but her own child. IIRC, all of her problems started with post partem depression which escalated into a psychosis.

A lot has been learned since Damien was in a mental hospital. I'd bet that, if he were evaluated today, he'd be found to be mentally healthy, except possibly suffering from paranoia caused by his incarceration on Death Row. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the defense has had a mental evaluation of Damien conducted in order to refute some of that Exhibit 500 NONsense.

 

[justthinkin]

A mental evaluation today has no bearing on a crime that took place in 1993. The only thing that counts is who that person was at the time these murders were committed.


Echols has no alibi. He successfully destroyed that when he took the stand by admitting that his alibi kept changing to fit the time line.

 

[Mary456]

No diagnosis of any type of mental illness proves that Damien was a murderer.

I don't know of a single non who claims that Damien's mental illness, taken alone, is proof that he was a murderer. It's simply another piece of the puzzle in a powerfully circumstantial case. And it fits perfectly.

BTW, the last time I heard about Andrea Yates she was in a mental hospital.

I think you missed my point. You said, " I hardly think that qualifies for "severe mental illness" or the hospital would not have released him."

And I said, “Tell that to Andrea Yates.”

Andrea was discharged from a psychiatric hospital on May 22nd. Her psychiatrist concluded that she was not a threat to herself or to anyone else. Less than a month later, she killed her five children.

Compassionate Reader, I believe you probably are a compassionate person. But as Morgan Freeman said to Brad Pitt in the movie Seven...”You can’t afford to be this naive.”

 

[justthinkin]

In your response to Cami, CR, concerning Jessie Misskelley Jr., you wrote:

He was in Special Education classes. That means that they teach to his level. In some states (I don't know about Arkansas), Special Education students receive a different diploma to indicate that their courses were below standard level. That's the whole point of SE classes. These students cannot achieve on the same level as other students. Therefore, they have special classes.

I've done a little research on that without going back to his school records to which I would have no access, and from what I've found, it does not appear that Jessie was in a special education program according to what Dan Stidham, Jessie's former attorney had to say about that here: http://www.wm3.org/CaseIntroduction/Page/DAN-STIDHAMS-CASE-SYNOPSIS. According to him, doctors thought Jessie needed special education, but Stidham said he never received it. Stidham also reports what Jessie had to say about BL, a person who was interviewed by the WMPD, but who was not called to testify at Jessie's trial. Stidham stated Jessie's opinion of BL was that he was dumb, and that BL was in special education.

Those two statements, if true, and I see no reason to doubt Stidham on this, say to me that Jessie wasn't in special ed, and never had been.


What is your proof for the statement that Jessie was in special ed?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Mara Leveritt mentions that Jessie is "a former special education student" in her well-researched book, Devil's Knot. As I have loaned my copy to a friend, I cannot cite the page number or the exact quote. However, I have seen him referred to in several places on the web as a "special education student" or a "special education dropout."

Just because Jessie refers to a friend (Buddy) as a special education student and calls him dumb doesn't mean that Jessie himself was not a special education student. In fact, it's highly possible that Jessie and Buddy became friends at school in their special education classes. In my teaching experience, students of Jessie's IQ level won't admit that they are "dumb" or are in Spec. Ed. They try to cover up their disability by doing and/or saying what the "smart" people or (especially) the authority figures (like the police) imply that they should do and/or say so that they don't appear to be dumb.

I don't have access to his school records, either, but, again based on my teaching experience, with an IQ tested at 72, the school would have placed him in Special Education classes. The cutoff, IIRC, is 70 to be considered mentally retarded (which would place him in classes where he would learn a skill) and 75 to be considered mentally handicapped (which would place him in specialized classes in the four major disciplines - English, math, history and science). People with IQs between 75 and 80 might qualify for certain special education classes, but they were usually "mainstreamed" and an aide was assigned to "help" them and/or the teacher during class.

Additionally, IMO it is possible that you have misinterpreted Judge Stidham's statement. He mentioned special education and family counseling in the same sentence. IMO, it is possible that he was pointing out that no family counseling had been given, not that Jessie had not been in special education classes. If it is possible for me to get a more definitive source for you on this special education issue, I will let you know.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I said earlier that if I obtained further information about Jessie's being in Special Education classes, I would let you know. I have communicated with Ms. Leveritt, and I have obtained her permission to let you know that she interviewed a teacher from the school Jessie attended (who was teaching at the time of the murders) who provided her with the information that Jessie was indeed in Special Education classes.

As a retired teacher, I know that all teachers in a school are aware of which students are in Special Education classes, not only the teachers who teach those students. So, as I said originally, I based my belief that Jessie was in Special Education classes on information from Ms. Leveritt. Now I have informed you where she got her information. As she told me (and as I knew and as a previous poster stated), school records are sealed. So, the testimony (or information) from a teacher who was there at the time is about the best proof we can get.

 

[missy_g]

Who says he's lying? Where is the constant anger from the three who are allegegly wrongly convicted?

If you did a little research you would know that TH lied about seeing the boys later in the day, he shot Pam's brother in the stomach eventually killing him and instead of looking for the boys he was washing curtains.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

If you did a little research you would know that TH lied about seeing the boys later in the day, he shot Pam's brother in the stomach eventually killing him and instead of looking for the boys he was washing curtains.

And playing guitars!

 

[missy_g]

Oh! And he failed to tell PH that her son was missing even though he knew for hours. He told her when he picked her up from work.

 

[iluvmua]

If you did a little research you would know that TH lied about seeing the boys later in the day, he shot Pam's brother in the stomach eventually killing him and instead of looking for the boys he was washing curtains.

years later

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The point remains that if TH had not shot Jackie, Jr., then Jackie, Jr. would probably still be alive today. Just because it was not technically murder doesn't mean that TH was not responsible for Jackie, Jr.'s death. (TH did receive 11 years' probation for the incident, IIRC.) There's simply no other explanation that suffices. TH caused Jackie, Jr.'s death. Period.

 

[missy_g]

It might have been years later, but what about everything else? Why didn't he tell the cops he saw the boys when he witnesses said he did see them? Also why didn't he tell PH that her son was missing?

 

[missy_g]

I also want to point out that NO mental illness is cut and dry. They all come in different variations and can be different from person to person.

People who suffer from Bi Polar disorder can have auditory hallucinations. Also a lot of mental illnesses go hand in hand (like depression and anxiety)

 

[indicajane]

I'd like to say I was a WM3 supporter since the trial. I am the same age as Damian, and I completely identified with him. I was a very troubled young girl, and was a troubled teen. I was kicked out of mainstream school in the seventh grade and was spent to SBH classes (Severely Behavior Handicapped) I could trade records with Damian, and you may have even thought I was more capable of the crimes then he.

I spent time as a supporter for the next fifteen years. I own both doc's, and also Devil's knot. Of course, my interest peaked and waned over the years as I grew up and moved on.

I began to reread items after the recent developments, and then I discovered Callahans which had the actual testimony of those who lived through those terribly tragic murders, and I was forced to examine the case without my prior rose colored glasses of my own rebellious youth, and having just seen the supporters side of things through the items I had been exposed too (paradise lost 1 and 2, and Devils Knot) and I won't be ashamed to say, I was depressed and upset by what I found.

I felt as if I had been lied too.

It's my own fault. I'm sure that information had been out there all along, but I just enjoyed seeing myself as on the side of right and good..those poor misunderstood boys who were being cast as murderers by a bunch of rednecks. It makes a wonderful feel good tragedy...especially if they prevailed...but unfortunately, the facts don't fit that story I, and apparently an entire generation, have been spoon fed.

I'm not saying I'm entirely in the "Guilty" camp, but if I'm on the fence, I'm dangling by my fingertips.

Unlike others, I don't take stock in Damian's mental health records, as I said, mine are far more damning. There were other items that struck me far more as leaning towards their guilt.

Mainly Damian's trench coat...whatever happened to that beloved trenchcoat? I dated a series of Damian's in the exact same time period. They all had a trenchcoat too. There wasn't much that would make them discard one, except of course, if it was covered in blood.

I could list a few other items that made me lean the way I've begun to lean, but I'm sure everyone on this site knows them, and knows them well. I won't bore you except to say that they drained the water the boys were in to look for evidence, there were no penis biting "snapping turtles" let alone any "alligators".

Of course I have wondered what may have occurred, and what i truly do believe happened is something similar to the scene in "Stand by Me" when Kiefer Sutherland's character and friends confront the group of boys in the woods. I believe there was a confrontation, and a simple *advertiser censored* beating went too far, driven by Damian's desire to shock and awe, and show how crazy and bad he was..and Jason and Jesse's desire to show they were able to "hang". I think it is a terrible tragedy all around. Six lives were destroyed that day, but only three were innocent.

I do want to say that I'm tired of hearing about poor idiot Jesse. Jesse had an IQ of 88. The defenses called their own witness to test him who came up with the IQ of 72, but he even admitted that Jesse showed signs of malingering after he was told exactly why he was getting the test. He couldn't have been that slow to realize how the ramifications of his IQ being tracked accurately. Jesse was no blithering idiot, he wasn't the sharpest crayon in the box, but he was mean. He attacked a thirteen year old girl before this incident. I'm tired of hearing about poor retarded Jesse.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

indicajane,

To take the sticking points that you brought up in order,

1) Damien's trench coat was left on the floor of the trailer by the WMPD. His sister, Michelle, has stated this. I was very surprised by that myself, but the WMPD didn't feel it was relevant. I guess it wasn't the right color to match any of the fibers that they were trying to match.

2) Of course they didn't find any snapping turtles (or alligators) when they drained the discovery ditch. It was connected to Ten Mile Bayou, and all aquatic life fled the ditch when the draining commenced, I am sure. If the draining in and of itself didn't drive the turtles, etc. away, I'm sure that the human activity did.

3) If the beat down you described was what actually transpired, why was there no evidence of this beating on the boys? None of the injuries, with the possible exception of blunt force trauma to the skulls, was attributed to anything like a beating. Also, if the boys had been beaten, there would have been blood on their clothing. There wasn't. (Being submerged in stagnant ditch water for a few hours wouldn't totally eradicate blood stains on the clothing.) I also believe that the persons doing the beating would have left some sort of DNA evidence on the boys or on their clothing. No DNA evidence connecting any of the WM3 has been found, and extensive testing is ongoing. In fact, the latest report from Bode reported that DNA found on Chris' shoes excludes all of the WM3 as its source.

4) Jessie's IQ is 72, not 88. I believe that the 88 figure was his "performance" portion on the IQ test. An overall IQ is obtained by measuring someone's intelligence on two different levels. I forget what the two parts are called, but one measures what most people would think of as "intelligence" - ability to comprehend and reason - and the other measures what I guess would be called ability to relate to people and get along in society. The second part is where Jessie scored 88. As a retired teacher, I am pretty familiar with how a person with an IQ of 72 acts when accused of wrongdoing. They pretty much say whatever they think the interrogator (whoever that authority figure may be) wants to hear because they believe that is how they can stop the questioning.

You say that you've discovered Callahan's and that you've read the trial transcripts. Have you read the pretrial hearing transcripts, too? What about the Rule 37 Abstracts? Simply reading the trial transcripts leaves out a lot of important information. I've read the trial transcripts, the pretrial hearing transcripts and the Rule 37 Abstracts. I've also read and watched Terry Hobbs' Pasdar deposition and interview with the WMPD from 2007 (when testing of a hair found under the ligature of Michael Moore revealed that it is a strong mtDNA match to Mr. Hobbs [97.5%] and the WMPD finally interviewed him).

I am confident, based on all of my reading and research, that the WM3 are innocent, and I am equally confident that the evidentiary hearing in December will provide much additional information that will, if not exonerate the WM3 outright, cast much more than a reasonable doubt on the verdicts.

 

[DIXIECAT]

I don't know of a single non who claims that Damien's mental illness, taken alone, is proof that he was a murderer. It's simply another piece of the puzzle in a powerfully circumstantial case. And it fits perfectly.




I think you missed my point. You said, " I hardly think that qualifies for "severe mental illness" or the hospital would not have released him."

And I said, “Tell that to Andrea Yates.”

Andrea was discharged from a psychiatric hospital on May 22nd. Her psychiatrist concluded that she was not a threat to herself or to anyone else. Less than a month later, she killed her five children.

Compassionate Reader, I believe you probably are a compassionate person. But as Morgan Freeman said to Brad Pitt in the movie Seven...”You can’t afford to be this naive.”

BBM
I'm not sure DE killed those boys, but psychosis IS a "severe mental illness," much more so than uncomplicated bipolar disorder. From his psych history, it is apparent that he would be (would have been) at least CAPABLE of committing the murders.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I'll say it again: No mental disorder proves someone to be a murderer without corroborating evidence. The only evidence presented against Damien was some questionable fibers found at the discovery ditch that could have come from his half-brother's Garanimal shirt. The psych history was only discussed during the sentencing phase of the trial. It was presented by the defense IIRC in an effort to lessen the sentence.

As to being capable of the murders, any number of people are capable of murder. Being capable is not proof of committing the crime. IMO, Damien was convicted by "Satanic panic" and the fact that he didn't look and/or act like most of the other people in the region at the time. If the State retries the WM3, "Satanic panic" will not help them this time, and Damien's current appearance is much more traditional (as he is not a rebellious teenager anymore).

Most competent prosecutors try to prove three things in a murder trial (although they are not required to, they know that, in order to get a "guilty" verdict from an unbiased jury, they usually need to), means, motive and opportunity. To kill three eight year old boys, "means" is not difficult to establish because anyone older and stronger than the boys would have the "means" with which to commit the murders. "Motive" was not established here, except the "Satanic cult" garbage from the discredited witness, Griffis, which, unfortunately, the jury obviously embraced. Finally, there's "opportunity" which was not proven to my satisfaction. All three had alibis. The prosecution pointed out that those alibis were from family and friends. The jury, unfortunately, discounted the alibis as a result.

I repeat what I have said before: Should the WM3 have lied and tried to establish a more acceptable alibi? If they were with family and friends, they were with family and friends. However, there is someone with opportunity (holes in his alibi) along with motive (dislike and resentment of his step son along with a history of handling problems with people with violence) who has so far avoided arrest. I anxiously await December when the defense has indicated that they intend to put this person on the stand. We'll see what happens then.

 

[indicajane]

4) Jessie's IQ is 72, not 88.

No one has ever said 72 that I have read. The test given by HIS team, where HE was told it would be used to decide if he was competent put him at 75. As I said, a prior test put him at 88.:

http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/wwilkins2.html

From the defense witness, Dr. Wilkins:

DAVIS: Ok. And the WAIS-R is the test that you use to determine the defendant’s IQ?
WILKINS: Yes.
DAVIS: And in that particular test, what was the performance IQ?
WILKINS: 75? Let me—yes.

His Performance IQ was 75 in the test he took for the trial.

DAVIS: Ok, and in 1992 there was also—prior to the time you did your examination there was another IQ test, correct?
WILKINS: Yes.
DAVIS: What was his performance IQ at that time?
WILKINS: 88.

Later in the testimony, the Doctor goes on to admit Jesse was showing very high traits of malingering during the test.

No one is going to argue that Jesse is going to win any brilliance tests, but is he smart enough to know what he was saying? Is he bright enough to really understand? Well, according to the doctor who examined him, he understood that how he scored on his intelligence test would represent how his punishment may go. That to me exhibits a certain amount of common sense. A low iq is not a representation of empathy or street smarts either.

Yes, "Compassionate Reader", you worked with teenagers, I got that, you've mentioned that in multiple threads. Yet, you didn't work with these particular three teenagers, so I don't believe that your experience is applicable to this situation. I have worked with troubled teens, and I also was a documented juvenile delinquent. I dated several "Damian Echols" and would love to believe that they were railroaded, and did for several years. it was a fight to realize after reading all the witnesses statements, all of the friends of the WM3 and realizing that they most certainly COULD have done it, and then suddenly, after over a year of soul searching and reading transcripts realizing that they most definately DID do it. That if I sat in the jury's seat, and heard simply what I read in the transcripts, I too would have had to vote the same way as they did.

I don't care to trade quotes and so on with you, as fun and diverting as that may be. For any argument I have, I'm sure that you have come up with a reason why that ISN'T valid evidence. Both sides of the debate are very passionate, and having stood on both side of the fence, I completely understand.

I have read the search warrant for the Echol's home, and it does list "black clothing". The trench coat was not there when the police went in. Michelle claims that the trench coat was there, but I'm sorry. I really think she has a motive for not telling the truth in regards to the coat. Every army navy surplus sells those black trench coats for very cheap, it wouldn't take much to be replaced. What i found telling is that the witnesses who spotted Damian on the side road after the murders, he was not wearing the coat. He also has said he wore the coat no matter how hot it was out. I believe he ditched the coat which was covered in blood, right after the murders.