Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #3

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Ok, I'll concede my route is 82.5 miles. I've traveled it a billion times--it just doesn't seem that far to me...LOL It's a 4 lane highway (I-43) until Green Bay. 141 used to be a 2 lane highway up til about 10 years or so ago when they made it a 4 lane all the way to Crivitz. North of Crivitz it becomes 2 lane again. I can make it from Manitowoc to Crivitz in under an hour. Guess I'm a lead foot. :blushing:

lol love this, I try to always check the mileage before I tell people how long it takes to get somewhere, because I know I drive way too fast. After I thought about it though it's good you mentioned how long it took, because my fiancé goes fishing around there with friends and also said itd take him maybe 90 min max, but usually less and that's from Sheboygan...a trip that google maps says should take 110 min. I have no idea if the Avery's are fast/slow drivers but time it takes to drive there is probably more important than mileage


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EA and CA are totally legitimate suspects, and are the kind of people that real investigators would have looked into. Also, were is the statement where he blames Kratz?


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IMO, BoD and Tadych are viable suspects as well, seeing as they couldn't get their times straight on when TH arrived. I actually thought the bus driver could have been mistaken about 3:30-3:40 as to when she saw TH. Just maybe, she drove multiple routes on a school day for elementary/middle/high school, but it appears that all Mishicot district students leave school around the same time (around 3:07 according to the current website - might have been different in 2005 ?).

I'd rather believe her objective testimony, rather than the 2:30-2:45 timeframe put forth by both BoD and ST.
 
The bus driver is correct, so the defense is using the correct timeline, at least on that count.

Bobby's testimony is one of the things that I have gone over and over trying to rationalize in my mind, as I just don't see why he would lie if he wasn't involved, but I don't think he's involved, or at least that he didn't commit the murder

Daylight savings time was Oct 30 of that year- is it possible Bobby was looking at a clock that hadnt been changed yet, meaning he saw Theresa at 345, not 245?


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The bus driver is correct, so the defense is using the correct timeline, at least on that count.

Bobby's testimony is one of the things that I have gone over and over trying to rationalize in my mind, as I just don't see why he would lie if he wasn't involved, but I don't think he's involved, or at least that he didn't commit the murder

Daylight savings time was Oct 30 of that year- is it possible Bobby was looking at a clock that hadnt been changed yet, meaning he saw Theresa at 345, not 245?


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No, because DST in the fall would mean he would have seen TH at 1:30-1:40 as clocks are rolled back an hour.
 
Ok...lets list the suspects per Avery...LOL

1st - Kratz
2nd - My brothers Earl and Chuck
3rd - insinuating a sheriff by way of letter to the reporter at WISN..did anyone catch the handwritten letter where he says "do an investigation of the Sheriff of Manitowoc County, ask him where his van is"
4th - Can't wait to see who's next in line

according to him...Anyone and everyone did it---Except him.

I am not sure of the validity of this augment . If he is innocent ,then he would have no actual knowledge of the event and might list anyone who he heard a rumor about or may even speculate much like thousands of other people have after him ,not because they want to point the finger but because the truth is obscured . It is natural to list people who could have done it and the fact that he did NOT stick with one theory shows the he could be conflicted over the who did it put.

The van thing could have been a rumor relayed to him from an inmate or from Tammy ,or anyone of his family members and he wants to know what happen to the van.
 
No, because DST in the fall would mean he would have seen TH at 1:30-1:40 as clocks are rolled back an hour.

LOL I was outraged when I read this until I realized I had forward/back confused. Good grief. Ok, well guess he is just a liar then lol.


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SA's niece posted this on the fb page... this was SA's letter to the news station
letter1.jpgletter2.jpg

He doesn't accuse the sheriff of killing TH, he makes mention of something he did on County L.S. Road that links him to a crime. I seen this on reddit last night.... and it only took a few minutes before someone posted what happened on L.S. Road. I won't post particulars of what I have read, but a 17 yr old young man, Ricky Hochstetler, was hit and killed on that road. From what I've read..... if you are from the area, you know the story, and you know the rumors.

ETA: if you click on the pictures you can zoom in :) because most of us don't have super good eyesight LOL
 
ANDDDD we have the Zellner tweets for for the day LOL


Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw 14h14 hours ago *** she posted this last night
Culprit had to remove his own DNA from key so TH's removed in process.Rub key on Avery's clothes for skin cells. Presto #MakingAMurderer

Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw 2h2 hours ago **** this is from this morning
The 22 recovered from garage did not exit TH's head. State expert failed to testify bullet exited--that 22 driven to scene
#MakingAMurderer

It's like she is reading here:scared:
 
These theories have been discussed -- Google "Work Gloves", if you have questions regarding how common cloth knuckles are. Also see the thread on this topic. Would love to see the work gloves they used working in the junk yard, haven't seen any examples from either side.

In terms of blood splatter, I'll start a thread on that, because this seems to be yet another topic where people assume there had to be a huge mess if she was shot in the garage. I think 10-12 shots is ridiculous.

But all I'll say here is. Pillow or something to cover the splatter that would come forward. Then no splatter at all, just a pool of blood that fits the description of the luminol hit on a 3x3 area in the garage.


Why does prosecution use 10-12 shots ? because brendan said that. Does that make it so? Does anyone believe that ?

Lastly, lets not forget that all these guys are likely skilled with deer hunting and understand what happens when you shoot something in the head. They understand blood splatter on some level, I am sure. So using a pillow wouldn't surprise me any more than putting a glove on. No rocket science.

I'm not convinced she was killed in garage, but wouldn't use the "where's the splatter ?" or "where are all the bullet holes from those 10-12 bullets?" arguments against it. Yes, you can use that against the prosecution's narrative. But who here, really believes all that ? I'd say nobody. So you are preaching to the choir if you are using that as the determining factors for whether killing in the garage was possible.

UPDATE -- Added thread regarding the 10-12 shots in the garage, blood splatter and what I think is reasonable to believe.

THREAD -- 12 shots in the garage and blood spatter

Just a question, I generally don't chime in. Were people not home at the Dassey residence that day/night? How does no one hear over 10 guns shots?
 
Just a question, I generally don't chime in. Were people not home at the Dassey residence that day/night? How does no one hear over 10 guns shots?

Exactly, according to Google Maps the Dassey home is about 70-80' from SA's garage. Most likely, SA would have had no idea who was coming or going when in the Dassey home. IMO, TH was not killed in SA's trailer or the garage - possibly out by the gravel pit, but one would have to discount the testimony of the propane truck driver who saw her vehicle between 3:30 and 4 on 10/31.
 
First of all, great stuff here sleuthers. I've watched the doc twice because the first time I saw it, I felt something wasn't right with the way it was presented. It was way too one sided. I work in television editing and I know how EASILY things can be manipulated and you can persuade the audience to feel a certain way with various techniques. In particular, music. It seemed the filmmakers tried to get the audience to like SA and his family at every opportunity. Music played a big role. Anytime you had photos of SA and his family it was sweet, guitar, beginning to a beautiful day music. They forced you to feel good. Any time you had the police or prosecutor, it was dark and brooding music. Of course that is part of filmmaking, playing with emotions, but you have to be very careful when crafting a documentary.

I think the filmmakers definitely had an agenda. They succeeded at showing our system isn't nearly perfect and that people with no money are railroaded. If you have money, you can get a good attorney and "create" a defense of reasonable doubt. To witness, SA had a $400,000 settlement with which to purchase the best defense attorneys money can buy. But I think in successfully delivering the message of an imperfect system, they really did leave out important facts that could make the audience believe SA was guilty or even a bad person. There is way too much they decided to leave out of their "documentary". I've heard the term "defense propaganda piece" and I truly believe that suits the film better than the term documentary. One example, they downplayed the whole cat burning thing, letting SA describe it as, what was it, "messing around". I'm sorry but that cat burning can be described as nothing but heinous. And the filmmakers would not go into that, not because of "lack of time", but specifically because it makes SA look really, really bad. And the mission of the film is to make you pull for the underdog and rage against the system.

Other things like the whole incident with him running a woman off the road and pointing a gun in her face. Who does that? Criminals. That's a violent thing to do. SA is a career criminal. And honestly, if he wasn't a law breaker in the first place, he would never even have been considered a suspect for the rape in 1985. His actions, more than police actions, made him a suspect in that murder case. Would police consider someone with a clean record a suspect in the murder, generally not. Would they suspect people they know to be involved in criminal activity, absolutely. Now, they f'd up because they targeted him when they were already aware of the actual rapist and should have pursued that further instead of focusing so heavily on SA. But if SA hadn't recently run a woman off the road and pointed a gun in her face, he wouldn't have even been considered. Also, I do believe 6 years of his 18 years in prison were justifiably for the gun incident. Not sure if it was to be served concurrently but do believe he was convicted of that as well. He spent 12 years in jail for a crime he didn't commit which I wholeheartedly agree is a terrible miscarriage of justice and he deserved a settlement.

In the murder case, SA is super good at proclaiming his innocence. It seems like he's a great liar to me more than anything and I think that most sociopaths are probably good at that because they have no conscience. I also believe Brendan Dassey helped murder or helped clean up the murder. Bleach on his jeans on the very day there is a murder. He admits to his mom it came from helping SA clean the garage. It's just a bridge too far that he happened to be cleaning SA's garage the very day of the murder. This combined with SA's phone calls and being the last person to admit seeing TH alive is pretty strong. So much more to point out that's already been covered. Oh, Brendan telling his mom that SA would touch him inappropriately. That whole family has a history of sexual issues, convictions, etc. that were not even talked about in the doc. It's portrayed as a sweet family from the parents on down.

One other thing I've been trying to find is a report that SA was under investigation for two separate rapes in 2005, before he was arrested for the gun violation and later charged with Halbach's murder. Can't remember where I saw it. But I believe it was a newspaper report that said SA had confided to his girlfriend Jodi that he did indeed rape a particular girl. The story said the girl didn't want to come forward in order to maintain her privacy. And SA was already being charged with the murder, so it wasn't pursued. Anybody else hear about this? Dang, I wish I would've bookmarked it or something.

Thank god someone else saw through this horribly biased 'documentary'. I feel sorry for the victim and her family as she was nearly completely ignored too. Avery is where he belongs.


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Thank god someone else saw through this horribly biased 'documentary'. I feel sorry for the victim and her family as she was nearly completely ignored too. Avery is where he belongs.


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I think this is the part most people are upset about, whether they believe SA is guilty or innocent.
 
Yes, I do feel sorry for the victim as well. Still, I am very grateful to the documentary for bringing Brandon's case into the light. He is a second victim, and I hope the interviews and his "confession" will now be scrutinized.
 
He doesn't accuse the sheriff of killing TH, he makes mention of something he did on County L.S. Road that links him to a crime. I seen this on reddit last night.... and it only took a few minutes before someone posted what happened on L.S. Road

BBM. Just a note since you made comments recently about poor use of grammar by one or more people involved in this case. You might not realize that you often use this particular word incorrectly and always in the past tense. Should be, "I saw this on reddit last night." (http://proofreading.ie/portfolio/saw-or-seen/)
 
BBM. Just a note since you made comments recently about poor use of grammar by some of the possible POIs. You might not realize that you often use this particular word incorrectly and always in the past tense. Should be, "I saw this on reddit last night." (http://proofreading.ie/portfolio/saw-or-seen/)

seriously? LOL so my very common misuse of one word, is equal to SA's writings? LOL His letters, among others statements in this case, are barely coherent...... but thanks, maybe I'll look into taking some English classes if I'm ever in jail after being wrongly convicted for 18 years. :jail:
 
Nobody is disputing that SA called Teresa at 4:35. We're disputing Kratz's claim it was to create an alibi (and alibi that makes ZERO sense considering he never claimed she didn't show up)
 
seriously? LOL so my very common misuse of one word, is equal to SA's writings?

I never said that, but it's one of those things if no one ever tells you, it's not something you'd ever necessarily know. Now that you know you can choose to use the proper grammar if you want (or not).
 
jumping off of this post/thought.... not directed at you at all!

This is kinda what I was saying earlier. I think that all the pre-trial garbage really did taint the public's view. How could anyone listen to Kratz give that horrific story and not want SA and BD to rot in hell? I totally get that! I have not read the thread from 2005... but I imagine that a lot of it was based on the theories of Ken Kratz and they didn't even make it into the court room... he couldn't prove it.... he didn't even have BD testify!!!! It is brutal, in my opinion, that a prosecutor and some LE can get away with some of the statements they made before the trial, and there is no way, again in my opinion, that he was ever going to receive a fair trial.

I have always been somewhat frustrated with the Canadian legal system because we have laws that prevent making comments/accusations like this.... after this, I will never complain about not "hearing" anything before a trial starts ever again.
The state of New Hampshire is also very tight-lipped with major crimes. (We are a small state, and major crimes are investigated by the state Attorney General's office). It is occasionally very frustrating, especially when trying to sleuth the high profile unsolved ones, but I prefer this before the damage a Kratz can do.
 
Buckets of what? Air? You surmised that the quarry was were he was going to dump the bones to then be accidentally used in construction projects. Only one or two of her bones were found at the quarry. Was he moving the bones to the quarry one at a time? Seems to me he would have been able to carry more than two bones to the quarry even if in just one trip.

I also was thinking that if I had bones to hide before my victim was missed, I might not go out of town for several days before finishing the clean up
 
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