Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #4

[Safeguard]

Enlighten me.... what does this tell you?

No one said on here (since I have followed), or anywhere for that matter, that what happened to TH is not awful. But that doesn't mean if someone is in prison for not doing it, it isn't as equally terrible. And IMO what happened to BD is even worse than SA, at least SA can handle the situation better, he's was there for 18 years and survived. BD was 16 yrs old and they used and manipulated him.

I find this, (and it pops up every so often), "No one cares about the victim" thing, a passive/aggressive attempt to say "shame on you", to those who don't believe SA is guilty, or have any doubts at all. Pffft!

It feels as though there are some people who, are *angry * that anyone could even entertain the idea, that the case was miss handled, and SA was framed.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

NO they testified that the KEY was Important evidence and they all stopped looked at each other and took picture of the key and handled it with care. However TH's body was very important evidence in yes IMO. she was the most important evidence. So why did they not call in the coroner. Who ever THEY are that were investigating this. THEY had 200 people searching that yard. and yet they kept the coroner off the case. And two of the officers who were recently deposed in the law suit the very conflict of interest on the property for days. They are spouting to the public through news media that MCSD knew it was a conflict of interest. Removing themselves was only a statement from them to the public, A LIE! Allowing the coroner to do her job would have been good for this case. She wanted to be involved after all it was her job. Why did THEY the investigators deviate from so many protocols, Couldnt be because they recused themselves. So why? what were they hiding? THEY THE INVESTIGATORS ON THIS CASE. I don't think everyone involved in the searching all 200 were involved in the planting. Heck I think some of them were overcome with the fake evidence that they turned a blind eye to protocol when it looked like things didnt add up.
I was looking into the rain fall for that week cause of the mud on her car. But I don't remember heavy storms that week. Oct 31, 2005=0.03in, Nov 5 2005=0.30in, Nov 6, 2005=0.25in, Nov 12 2005=0.09in. This is 2/3's of an inch of rain in 2 weeks. This does not seem like heavy storms to me. but all I write is more or less my opinion. Just thoughts and theories.

However the little bit of rain they did have gave them, the investigators opportunity to TARP the car. or in other words conceal it from aerial view. Could have easily planted evidence under that tent. Shrugs. again JMO

Also if you look at the picture of the Tire belt that wasn't even in the burn pit you see DRY leaves around it and a non-burnt screwdriver, where she was burnt supposedly. This debris was not in the pit before they even removed the dog.

I posted about the rainfall awhile back.....
.08 inches on October 31st, then nothing until the afternoon of the 5th.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

They were being sarcastic....means the bones were "unimportant" because they were the only "evidence" that were not photographed at the crime scene following proper protocol. If you remember, when the key was first "seen" by Lenk and Colburn, they made it a point that no one touch it because it was an "IMPORTANT" discovery. Yet they just treat the actual victim (her bones, anyway) with such obvious disregard that they don't bother to get the coroner or a forensic specialist ON SITE to examine and remove them, they just shovel and sift her into boxes with NO pics to corroborate their discovery of the bones. And we are just supposed to take their word for it?? Mmmkay.

*** The quotation's around key words here is because my opinion on all the prosecution's "evidence" is that it is not credible.

As I understand, they called in an expert from the Dalhmer case in Milwaukee

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Is it possible TH's SUV was moved to its spot when it was dark outside by Avery? I would think it was certainly possible. What appears as obvious in hindsight, with light shined on the dark interior, is not so obvious. The people who came to the scene after Pam Sturm called, testified they didn't open the SUV, the SUV was locked.

That is a very good point...and I must add that Avery admits himself the first time they question him that he can get back there from the back of his house. I was wondering about that--if you look at the aerial picture, you can see what looks like an ATV trail.

 

[Jaiddie]

I find it sad and telling that people are up in arms by how TH's remains "were treated" by those recovering the charred little bits left of her, which had to be sifted from a pit of ashes and steel belts and whatever else was burned. I sure don't see anger and disgust at TH being burned to bits in the first place--that's who deserves the real vitriol, IMO. By the point LE found her (after a cadaver dog hit on the burn pit and barrels) the torture and murder of poor Teresa had already been a fait acompli.

The sad and telling part to me is the fact that all the people screaming "Avery is guilty of the rape, torture, and murder of Teresa!", are too caught up in the he is Guilty charge that they don't even seem to care about her ACTUAL death and how it happened. The prosecution gave two completely different opposing narratives at those trials on how her murder occurred, but that seems to be okay as long as people realize SA is GUILTY. I am sorry, but I feel like the Mannitowoc LE and officials have done a GREAT disservice to Teresa and her family, because they will forever have that picture that Kratz painted at that press conference in their minds of what happened to her and, MOST, if not all of it was BS. There was no proof of torture, rape, throat slashed, begging for her life, etc...

And yes It does matter to me how her remains were treated. For two reasons. 1. On a human level, if something similar had happened to my loved one I would want them to at least be respectful to her remains and bring on a specialist to properly uncover and remove her. I would want the same respect shown to my loved one, for instance, as anthropologists show when uncovering burial sites. 2. On a scientific level, police procedures are put into place for a reason. By LE taking it upon themselves to do that investigation in the way that they did, we only have THEIR word for how that evidence was discovered. If they had followed proper protocols, such as photographing and video taping the DISCOVERY of the bones, then many would not be asking the question's they are now asking. Most importantly, by LE recovering the bones as they did with shovels themselves, I wonder how much damage to those bones were caused by THEM in the recovery.

 

[MysticJynx]

So, my question is, if they only sent the hair and fingernail clippings--did they get re-merged into the old container when it came back from the lab in Mar-96? I mean was the hair and fingernail clippings in with the blood when it was found after TH was murdered? ...or was it maintained in 2 separate containers. Remember Lenk did not send the blood--only hair and fingernail clippings.

I imagine it was in the bigger evidence box that had this on the top or with it when it was returned in 96.

I would hope they kept the evidence separate from each other in their own containers so they did not contaminate each other. then lenk checked out only the fingernail clippings and hair. PB's blood and SA's Blood should never have been removed from the bigger box of evidence.

Blood should never have been open thus to me it was tampered with someone cut that second seal and then just closed it with scotch tape.

I think they even mentioned that this was the only thing left after the fingernails and hair were sent out in 2002, when they are opening it in 2006 on the video.

 

[MysticJynx]

Investigation Discovery is doing something on SA right now. Front page with keith someone.

 

[GigiG]

Investigation Discovery is doing something on SA right now. Front page with keith someone.

Keith Morrison. He was also intimately involved in reporting Ryan Ferguson's case through the finally chapters of his exoneration.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

The sad and telling part to me is the fact that all the people screaming "Avery is guilty of the rape, torture, and murder of Teresa!", are too caught up in the he is Guilty charge that they don't even seem to care about her ACTUAL death and how it happened. The prosecution gave two completely different opposing narratives at those trials on how her murder occurred, but that seems to be okay as long as people realize SA is GUILTY. I am sorry, but I feel like the Mannitowoc LE and officials have done a GREAT disservice to Teresa and her family, because they will forever have that picture that Kratz painted at that press conference in their minds of what happened to her and, MOST, if not all of it was BS. There was no proof of torture, rape, throat slashed, begging for her life, etc...

And yes It does matter to me how her remains were treated. For two reasons. 1. On a human level, if something similar had happened to my loved one I would want them to at least be respectful to her remains and bring on a specialist to properly uncover and remove her. I would want the same respect shown to my loved one, for instance, as anthropologists show when uncovering burial sites. 2. On a scientific level, police procedures are put into place for a reason. By LE taking it upon themselves to do that investigation in the way that they did, we only have THEIR word for how that evidence was discovered. If they had followed proper protocols, such as photographing and video taping the DISCOVERY of the bones, then many would not be asking the question's they are now asking. Most importantly, by LE recovering the bones as they did with shovels themselves, I wonder how much damage to those bones were caused by THEM in the recovery.

I agree with most of what you said, but I do think he is guilty, and yes I do care about her actual death. However, I have determined unless you were there when it happened--you can only surmise or assume what happened on that fateful day. You can create your own storyline, believe the one Kratz put out there or resign yourself to the fact that you will never know. I've resigned myself to the fact that I will never know what truly happened--and most of us on her--will never truly know.

Yes, it is interesting to submit theory's of how you think it might have happened and what the evidence we have leads us to believe what happened and debate as to whether or not that theory holds any water--but at the end of the day--we will never really know. The only thing that can happen is someone admits to it. It's too late to follow other leads, its been 10 years and the evidence is most likely destroyed implicating anyone else. Even if they do find evidence of RH or someone else on that car--it doesn't mean they killer her either.

With all that being said--I wouldn't really care about the bones--I would hope that my faith would have her in a much higher place. Not sure if I can say this or not--(if not mods please snip) but I believe the soul leaves the body upon death and she wasn't there anyway. Much like saying, the cow's soul is still with the bones on a steak....

But, that just goes to show--we all have different opinions.

 

[RANCH]

I find this, (and it pops up every so often), "No one cares about the victim" thing, a passive/aggressive attempt to say "shame on you", to those who don't believe SA is guilty, or have any doubts at all. Pffft!

It feels as though there are some people who, are *angry * that anyone could even entertain the idea, that the case was miss handled, and SA was framed.

I think that it's fine for people to entertain the idea that SA was framed. I just haven't seen any proof of it yet. JMO

 

[GigiG]

The sad and telling part to me is the fact that all the people screaming "Avery is guilty of the rape, torture, and murder of Teresa!", are too caught up in the he is Guilty charge that they don't even seem to care about her ACTUAL death and how it happened. The prosecution gave two completely different opposing narratives at those trials on how her murder occurred, but that seems to be okay as long as people realize SA is GUILTY. I am sorry, but I feel like the Mannitowoc LE and officials have done a GREAT disservice to Teresa and her family, because they will forever have that picture that Kratz painted at that press conference in their minds of what happened to her and, MOST, if not all of it was BS. There was no proof of torture, rape, throat slashed, begging for her life, etc...

And yes It does matter to me how her remains were treated. For two reasons. 1. On a human level, if something similar had happened to my loved one I would want them to at least be respectful to her remains and bring on a specialist to properly uncover and remove her. I would want the same respect shown to my loved one, for instance, as anthropologists show when uncovering burial sites. 2. On a scientific level, police procedures are put into place for a reason. By LE taking it upon themselves to do that investigation in the way that they did, we only have THEIR word for how that evidence was discovered. If they had followed proper protocols, such as photographing and video taping the DISCOVERY of the bones, then many would not be asking the question's they are now asking. Most importantly, by LE recovering the bones as they did with shovels themselves, I wonder how much damage to those bones were caused by THEM in the recovery.

Well, I for one agree with everything you've put forth here.

 

[MysticJynx]

Wonder how much mail SA actually received at the yard? He also had a PO BOX

EDITED. this was prior to 1988, Stamps went up to 25 cents in this year.

 

[Jaiddie]

I agree with most of what you said, but I do think he is guilty, and yes I do care about her actual death. However, I have determined unless you were there when it happened--you can only surmise or assume what happened on that fateful day. You can create your own storyline, believe the one Kratz put out there or resign yourself to the fact that you will never know. I've resigned myself to the fact that I will never know what truly happened--and most of us on her--will never truly know.



Yes, it is interesting to submit theory's of how you think it might have happened and what the evidence we have leads us to believe what happened and debate as to whether or not that theory holds any water--but at the end of the day--we will never really know. The only thing that can happen is someone admits to it. It's too late to follow other leads, its been 10 years and the evidence is most likely destroyed implicating anyone else. Even if they do find evidence of RH or someone else on that car--it doesn't mean they killer her either.

With all that being said--I wouldn't really care about the bones--I would hope that my faith would have her in a much higher place. Not sure if I can say this or not--(if not mods please snip) but I believe the soul leaves the body upon death and she wasn't there anyway. Much like saying, the cow's soul is still with the bones on a steak....

But, that just goes to show--we all have different opinions.

Ok, I can agree with the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and while it may be interesting to theorize back and forth on what really happened to her my main point is that, that investigation and the trials were so much of a farce MANY of the theories could actually be PLAUSIBLE.

As far as the bones go, I will leave out the human aspect of it and just leave it to the scientific part. I would really, really, really like someone to answer me the question, why was it OK and LEGAL for LE to recover her remains as they did with their own detectives using shovels and no pictures chronologically documenting their findings? I am sure that those LEO were not experienced enough to know how to do that without further damaging the bones than they already were, that is why it is protocol to have an experienced forensic specialist ON SITE in order for the procedures to be done accordingly and no further damage be done to the evidence.

While I cannot say that I am 100% sure that SA is Innocent, I am 1000% sure he is Not Guilty because of that kangaroo court they called trials.

Btw: I really would like an answer from the ones who think he is guilty as to the question I posed. I have asked it several times and on multiple sites but it just keeps getting blown off.

 

[Safeguard]

Wonder how much mail SA actually received at the yard? He also had a PO BOX

Another thing I wonder about; what is the psychological make up of those women who write convicted men, to "show their support", then end up visiting and in getting in a "relationship" or marrying them?

(Same thing happened with Damien in the WMT case).

I suspect that was their intention all along, from the first letter, yet they always claim they were so "surprised" to find themselves becomming romantically attracted. Hmmmm.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Wonder how much mail SA actually received at the yard? He also had a PO BOX

That looks like a letter he received while he was in the prison in Green Bay.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think that it's fine for people to entertain the idea that SA was framed. I just haven't seen any proof of it yet. JMO

That is exactly how I feel too, Ranch. I actually enjoy reading everyone's theories, and opinions about this case. I don't post a lot on this case, but I do read all of the posts about this case every day. I find them all very interesting to read.

However: I have not seen any proof either of planting or tampering with any evidence.

Even one of Avery's trial attorneys admitted they do not have the proof they need to substantiate the framing/tampering claim and he said that after the documentary came out. And that really makes sense because if they did have supporting evidence showing the evidence admitted against Avery was tampered with or LE framed him then the first appellate court would heavily weigh those facts when rendering a decision but they have to be facts and not just claims or allegations or theories.

Now if I saw undeniable proof there had been planting or tampering it would certainly change my opinion about this case totally. But all of this was already brought out by his trial attorneys and presented to the jury back in 2005.

Avery's case has been up on appeal twice already and was denied both times. So the higher courts obviously do not believe the claims are supported by facts for I am sure the claims of tampering and framing were a large part of their appellate issues both times when it has been appealed to no avail.

In a way selfishly, I would like to see a re-trial for Avery because DNA and forensic evidence has advanced so much in 10 years. Since there are many things left to be tested I would think it may be an even stronger case than the first. And the nice thing about it no matter which side test the item/s the results has to be turned over to the other side if the experts are going to testify about those new findings, if any.

I do admit that Brendan's case bothers me a whole heck of a lot more than Avery's which doesn't bother me at all. While I do believe Brendan was involved, I believe he was coerced out of paralyzing fear to do what he did that day. So, imo, Brendan shouldn't have been charged with first degree, and I think his attorney should have gone with the fear/abuse factor as his defense. Many people unfortunately do things they don't want to do because they are intimidated and greatly fearful of the another person. Yes, they can even participate in a violent acts in order to appease their abuser. While some say they believe LE led Brendan, I didn't see any evidence of that in the interviews, but I do believe Avery did (lead/force by intimation) Brendan into helping him commit this heinous crime that he really wanted no part in. Avery also knew how to lead or force Brendan into doing things. He also knew his mental capacity. It may never become known but I think Avery had abused Brendan emotionally, physically, and sexually as well after he got out. When someone is abused by someone like Avery the victim (Brendan) will do anything the abuser tells them to do without question. And I do believe Brendan was abused by Avery.

Again, IMHO, Avery has the traits of a psychopath. Not only does he kill his defenseless pet cat just for the hell of it by putting oil/gas on it and then throwing it in the fire to be burned alive while watching it burn to death... he also destroyed Theresa in the same way by stoking the fire watching her body burn up. Animal cruelty and a fascination with fires are two main traits they have. Psychopaths also will target/manipulate someone they know they can take advantage of like Avery did with Brendan, imo. I see this when Brendon tells his mom about Avery being sexually inappropriate and making lewd gestures. SA had done this before THs murder yet Brendon did not tell even his own mother until he knew Avery had been arrested. Brendan feared Avery, imo. I believe Avery did much more than Brendan told his mom. Imo, he didn't have the courage to tell her everything. It was too embarrassing to tell his mother what really happened.

Also when a psychopath has it in their mind they have been wronged then they come back with a vengeance tenfold...to not only get even but having the feeling they are ahead by doing something much worse than the wrong they feel happened to them. To me this is why he can say with a straight face he is innocent. Psychopaths are so good at presenting what they want everyone else to see when its to their advantage and they have been able to fool some of the most learned mental health professionals. Deep down they are devoid of emotions except when it comes to themselves and they are always the victim according to them. But sometimes their mask will drop to show what is underneath the surface... like burning a cat alive, trying to run a woman off the road and pointing a gun at her. I don't believe for one second the gun was unloaded at the time, and he was a domestic violence abuser. Most psychopaths never murder anyone but those who do usually have a criminal history showing violence. That is why the FBI profilers always delves into the past criminal behavior of a someone they think is a suspect.


IMO.

 

[MysticJynx]

That looks like a letter he received while he was in the prison in Green Bay.

Edited by me. I think you are right. or at least prior to 1988 when the stamp when up to 25cents.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Ok, I can agree with the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and while it may be interesting to theorize back and forth on what really happened to her my main point is that, that investigation and the trials were so much of a farce MANY of the theories could actually be PLAUSIBLE.

As far as the bones go, I will leave out the human aspect of it and just leave it to the scientific part. I would really, really, really like someone to answer me the question, why was it OK and LEGAL for LE to recover her remains as they did with their own detectives using shovels and no pictures chronologically documenting their findings? I am sure that those LEO were not experienced enough to know how to do that without further damaging the bones than they already were, that is why it is protocol to have an experienced forensic specialist ON SITE in order for the procedures to be done accordingly and no further damage be done to the evidence.

While I cannot say that I am 100% sure that SA is Innocent, I am 1000% sure he is Not Guilty because of that kangaroo court they called trials.

Btw: I really would like an answer from the ones who think he is guilty as to the question I posed. I have asked it several times and on multiple sites but it just keeps getting blown off.

In in fact, what you say is true about how it was handled, I'm so with you on the--there should have been established procedures followed. But, I'm not convinced they were handled incorrectly...and for one reason...they brought in an expert from Milwaukee, from the Jeffrey Dahlmer case, who was experienced in handling bones.

Why do I think he is guilty--all of the evidence points to him or someone on that property--am I 100% convinced it was him--No--but I do think he had knowledge of it. Do I think LE or someone else planted evidence--nope. If it was anyone else..other than SA..everyone on here would be saying...death penalty or put him in jail and throw away the key.

 

[GigiG]

That is exactly how I feel too, Ranch. I actually enjoy reading everyone's theories, and opinions about this case. I don't post a lot on this case, but I do read all of the posts about this case every day. I find them all very interesting to read.

However: I have not seen any proof either of planting or tampering with any evidence.

Even one of Avery's trial attorneys admitted they do not have the proof they need to substantiate the framing/tampering claim and he said that after the documentary came out. And that really makes sense because if they did have supporting evidence showing the evidence admitted against Avery was tampered with or LE framed him then the first appellate court would heavily weigh those facts when rendering a decision but they have to be facts and not just claims or allegations or theories.

Now if I saw undeniable proof there had been planting or tampering it would certainly change my opinion about this case totally. But all of this was already brought out by his trial attorneys and presented to the jury back in 2005.

Avery's case has been up on appeal twice already and was denied both times. So the higher courts obviously do not believe the claims are supported by facts for I am sure the claims of tampering and framing were a large part of their appellate issues both times when it has been appealed to no avail.

In a way selfishly, I would like to see a re-trial for Avery because DNA and forensic evidence has advanced so much in 10 years. Since there are many things left to be tested I would think it may be an even stronger case than the first. And the nice thing about it no matter which side test the item/s the results has to be turned over to the other side if the experts are going to testify about those new findings, if any.

I do admit that Brendan's case bothers me a whole heck of a lot more than Avery's which doesn't bother me at all. While I do believe Brendan was involved, I believe he was coerced out of paralyzing fear to do what he did that day. So, imo, Brendan shouldn't have been charged with first degree, and I think his attorney should have gone with the fear/abuse factor as his defense. Many people unfortunately do things they don't want to do because they are intimidated and greatly fearful of the another person. Yes, they can even participate in a violent acts in order to appease their abuser. While some say they believe LE led Brendan, I didn't see any evidence of that in the interviews, but I do believe Avery did (lead/force by intimation) Brendan into helping him commit this heinous crime that he really wanted no part in. Avery also knew how to lead or force Brendan into doing things. He also knew his mental capacity. It may never become known but I think Avery had abused Brendan emotionally, physically, and sexually as well after he got out. When someone is abused by someone like Avery the victim (Brendan) will do anything the abuser tells them to do without question. And I do believe Brendan was abused by Avery.

Again, IMHO, Avery has the traits of a psychopath. Not only does he kill his defenseless pet cat just for the hell of it by putting oil/gas on it and then throwing it in the fire to be burned alive while watching it burn to death... he also destroyed Theresa in the same way. Animal cruelty and a fascination with fires are two main traits they have. Psychopaths also will target someone they know they can take advantage of like Avery did with Brendan, imo. I see this when Brendon tells his mom about Avery being sexually inappropriate and making lewd gestures. SA had done this before THs murder yet Brendon did not tell even his own mother until he knew Avery had been arrested. Brendan feared Avery, imo.

Also when a psychopath has it in their mind they have been wronged then they come back with a vengeance tenfold...to not only get even but having the feeling they are ahead by doing something much worse than the wrong they feel happened to them. To me this is why he can say with a straight face he is innocent. Psychopaths are so good at presenting what they want everyone else to see when its to their advantage and they have been able to fool some of the most learned mental health professionals. Deep down they are devoid of emotions except when it comes to themselves and they are always the victim according to them. But sometimes their mask will drop to show what is underneath the surface... like burning a cat alive, trying to run a woman off the road and pointing a gun at her. I don't believe for one second the gun was unloaded at the time, and he was a domestic violence abuser. Most psychopaths never murder anyone but those who do usually have a criminal history showing violence. That is why the FBI profilers always delves into the past criminal behavior of a someone they think is a suspect.


IMO.

I think you're missing the point that a lot of the "evidence" you're relying upon in seeing guilt, really should never have been considered admissible. Take away everything that was "found" by Manitowoc personnel, and what have you got that makes either Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey guilty? A lot of circumstantial stuff that could point to anyone, had the police bothered to properly investigate.

Add to that the much discredited "Reid Technique" of interrogation, which resulted in Dassey's confession(s). Well, that's not enough for me to come to a hard conclusion regarding guilt.

 

[diesel]

NO they testified that the KEY was Important evidence and they all stopped looked at each other and took picture of the key and handled it with care. However TH's body was very important evidence in yes IMO. she was the most important evidence. So why did they not call in the coroner. Who ever THEY are that were investigating this. THEY had 200 people searching that yard. and yet they kept the coroner off the case. And two of the officers who were recently deposed in the law suit the very conflict of interest on the property for days. They are spouting to the public through news media that MCSD knew it was a conflict of interest. Removing themselves was only a statement from them to the public, A LIE! Allowing the coroner to do her job would have been good for this case. She wanted to be involved after all it was her job. Why did THEY the investigators deviate from so many protocols, Couldnt be because they recused themselves. So why? what were they hiding? THEY THE INVESTIGATORS ON THIS CASE. I don't think everyone involved in the searching all 200 were involved in the planting. Heck I think some of them were overcome with the fake evidence that they turned a blind eye to protocol when it looked like things didnt add up.
I was looking into the rain fall for that week cause of the mud on her car. But I don't remember heavy storms that week. Oct 31, 2005=0.03in, Nov 5 2005=0.30in, Nov 6, 2005=0.25in, Nov 12 2005=0.09in. This is 2/3's of an inch of rain in 2 weeks. This does not seem like heavy storms to me. but all I write is more or less my opinion. Just thoughts and theories.

However the little bit of rain they did have gave them, the investigators opportunity to TARP the car. or in other words conceal it from aerial view. Could have easily planted evidence under that tent. Shrugs. again JMO
t e
Also if you look at the picture of the Tire belt that wasn't even in the burn pit you see DRY leaves around it and a non-burnt screwdriver, where she was burnt supposedly. This debris was not in the pit before they even removed the dog.

And what about using those little evidence flags? True, there were a lot of small bones, but put flags up on most, especially those that were outside the pit. Then take pictures. But no pictures, no coroner = suspicious.