New to this case and new to the forum

[leslievernon]

@Userid reg. animals:
true.. lots of noise in the woods that night.
if it was a secret hideout.. maybe underground. who knows..

yet i refuse to believe, with the screwdriver (x wound) being a possible exception, that some impressions were formed at the ditchbank or in the mud in the water... hence i think the bodies were altogether somewhere else for some time.

 

[leslievernon]

i know wew are mixing a lot of topics together in this thread..but i think people new to the case will get what we are talking about.

reg. which victim was less injured, it was michael moore (accord. to b. turvey report). "no discernible stab wounds", which is so strange, especially after what we were just talking about earlier, i mean.. all the wounds.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

i know wew are mixing a lot of topics together in this thread..but i think people new to the case will get what we are talking about.

reg. which victim was less injured, it was michael moore (accord. to b. turvey report). "no discernible stab wounds", which is so strange, especially after what we were just talking about earlier, i mean.. all the wounds.

Yes I agree we are covering a large amount of topics! I hope people find it useful, it has been useful for me, I don't want to start a new thread every time I have a question.

Speaking of questions, I have just read the testimony of Alvis Clem Bly. He was interviewed in June 1993, at the time , he was in prison for the rape of an 8 year old girl. In his statements, he claims to have been part of the same Cult that the WM3 were reported to be part of. He claimed to have been in attendance at these meetings where dogs were sacrificed, people were raped and plans were discussed for a human sacrifice, with specific mention to young boys under 8 years old.

Does anyone have anymore info on him? a lot of his information was very detailed and believable but he also came across as a bit of a shady character so Im not sure how seriously the detectives took his story.

Thanks

 

[leslievernon]

looking through my own stuff.. the name alvis clem bly sure rings a bell..

there were some perverts and genereal weirdos in that area, that shocked me too.. and they (police) checked them out... richard cummings, samuel beasley, steve menard, james kenny martin, the 3 teens (1w/2b) coming out of the wooded area and were seen by 10 y.o. dawn moore who was looking for the 3 boys, them asking her if she wanted "a shot" meaning drugs.. so that was a strange bunch too, being close to the scene at the right time (ca. 6 pm)

and reg. the satanic cult meetings:
jessie also claimed to have been at a meeting. they used to gather on wednesdays, at different places. wednesday may 5th was no meeting. there was sex orgies. dogs and other animals were killed, skinned and parts of it eaten. one time someone brought a washing mashine-like thing that was used to cook dog flesh. he ate a bit of it but got sick. he says, that damien stalked the victims and watched them. there was a suitcase that was brought to every meeting. content: pistol, cocain, marijuana and a picture of the 3 victims.

yeah, a nice story.. i just never bought that. ... everybody who thinks about a "satanic cult" might come up with dog sacrifices and sex orgies sooner or later...

 

[Userid]

Yes I agree we are covering a large amount of topics! I hope people find it useful, it has been useful for me, I don't want to start a new thread every time I have a question.

Speaking of questions, I have just read the testimony of Alvis Clem Bly. He was interviewed in June 1993, at the time , he was in prison for the rape of an 8 year old girl. In his statements, he claims to have been part of the same Cult that the WM3 were reported to be part of. He claimed to have been in attendance at these meetings where dogs were sacrificed, people were raped and plans were discussed for a human sacrifice, with specific mention to young boys under 8 years old.

Does anyone have anymore info on him? a lot of his information was very detailed and believable but he also came across as a bit of a shady character so Im not sure how seriously the detectives took his story.

Thanks

Alyssa, you are really delving into this case -- again, very impressed. It's encouraging to see.

I remember reading about Bly -- he has some very interesting things to say. I know people are quick to dismiss the "satanic" angle of this case, but in all honesty, there is a lot of smoke (i.e. where there's smoke, there's fire). There were other people that reported satanic atctivity: Deanna Holcomb, JB's cousin, other teens (can't think of their names offhand).

Bly was in jail at the time he talked to investigators, if memory serves -- not that this proves/disproves anything, just stating it.

I guess my point is, this wasn't just "invented" by people like Jerry Driver or the WMPD -- these incidents were reported by multiple people outside of law enforcement.

Does that mean this was a satanic murder? Not necessarily, but then again, the two are mutually exclusive. This could have been going on, but could have been unrelated to the crime itself.

 

[Userid]

@Userid reg. animals:
true.. lots of noise in the woods that night.
if it was a secret hideout.. maybe underground. who knows..

yet i refuse to believe, with the screwdriver (x wound) being a possible exception, that some impressions were formed at the ditchbank or in the mud in the water... hence i think the bodies were altogether somewhere else for some time.

The million dollar question (I should say, one of) is whether or not this crime occurred in the woods or not -- if the dump site is also the murder site, or simply the former.

What I will say is this: I don't believe the murder occurred in a manhole. I've seen some of the entrances into a few of these manholes, and there is no way that an adult could easily fit inside of them.

Now, I tend to believe that the murder occurred in the area where they were found. There is evidence against this theory (lack of blood being the biggest one; there was blood found, but you would think more would have been found), but there is also evidence against the theory that this was strictly a dump site also (no tire tracks, completely inconvenient and risky compared to other alternative dump sites in the area, etc.).

I'll say this: if the crime occurred somewhere else, and the boys were transported here, then it was in a place that was extremely close by to begin with. To wit: the boys were last seen entering another area of the woods (across the bayou, a few blocks east of where they were found). This area was ironically called "Devil's Den," but was separate from the creek they were found. It's possible, to me, that the murders occurred in another area of Robin Hood Woods; or in one of the houses whose backyard bordered the Robin Hood Woods; or in a trailer of a semi-truck in the 76 lot. In other words, if the crime scene is separate, the killer could have only accessed the dump site by foot (or small boat/raft on the bayou, which is unlikely, but possible). Because if the killer had a car, he would have picked an easier/safer/more-hidden place to dispose of these bodies -- there's just no way, in my view, to claim otherwise.

 

[leslievernon]

you said inconvenient, i like that word... yes, inconvenient for someone who just couldn't jump into his car and leave.

reg. the last sightings of the boys:
yeah, there were a few sightings and i think there's no discussion that they were entering the woods (correct me if necessary i'm translating from my stuff again)

-kim williams saw mike and stevie entering the woods at 5:30-6pm.
-otto and allen bailey saw mike and stevie ca. 5:45pm.
[both GREEN backpacks, stevie RED shorts and white shoes]
-ben crafton saw mike and stevie on their bikes at 6pm.
-dana moore saw all 3 crossing her house at 6pm.
-jeff martins saw all 3 going towards RHH at 6:30pm.
-brian woody saw 4 kids going towards RHH at 6:30-6:45pm.
[one of them described as most prob. being stevie]
-cindy rico saw all 3 on the field next to I-40 near the woods at 6:30-7pm

i hope that's right. but what is really interesting here, is 1. that stevie had red shorts on, and 2. that there were no green backpacks found.

 

[Userid]

^ Those seem right, yes. There was also Dawn M. (MM's sister) who chased after the boys after their mother saw the boys and told her to go after them. That sighting is at 6, along with Kim W.'s

Yes, the OB jr. sighting is "interesting" -- I'd say it's also "curious" and a bit "suspicious." Like you said: SB was not wearing red shorts (he was wearing jeans; two pair of jeans and one pair of cub-scout navy pants were recovered at the scene) and no back packs were ever found or reported by any other witnesses, but OB jr. The question is, why?

 

[Userid]

And to add: one sighting that should be totally dismissed, is the JCB sighting, where she claims she saw TH calling to the boys in front of SB's house, at the same time all these other sightings occurred. There is zero credibility in that sighting, and goes against all the other more credible witness sightings that have the boys on the opposite end of the neighborhood -- and which were all given at the time of the murders, as opposed to 14 years later.

 

[leslievernon]

who was JCB again?.. well, as you said, doesn't matter really.

yes... since mike and stevie were best buddies... it makes sense that the 2 planned something.. don't you think?
and stevie had to get back to the house at one point, to change clothes, unlesss he had the shorts in his backpack.. but then the backpack was never found... anyway pam saw him the last time with his torn blue jeans on.

ETA: why was stevie's jeans the only one recovered clean, not inside-out, and the fly was open? the other 2 were dirty, inside-out, and closed fly.

 

[Userid]

Jamie Clark Ballard -- the one in, what is it, West of Memphis maybe? Who says she saw TH with the boys that day. CB's brother, RC, has refuted the majority of JCB's story on top of it, because she also claimed to have walked home with him that day and she saw him after school the next day -- he denied both claims.

There actually is a theory that SB did try to return home -- found he had missed his mom and TH -- then went back out and met up again with the other two. This is unsubstantiated though. This is believed because of the "green, vegetable substance" that was found in his stomach, and the fact that his mom had made green beans as a side for dinner that night. If memory serves, she wrapped up his dinner.

ETA: I'm not sure, was that the case? I don't remember those details exactly right now, with regard to the pants. It seemed like the only clothes that were really muddy, was the cub scout uniform. Even the shirts (from the other boys) weren't all that muddy.

 

[leslievernon]

"Jamie Clark Ballard -- the one in, what is it, West of Memphis maybe? Who says she saw TH with the boys that day. CB's brother, RC, has refuted the majority of JCB's story on top of it, because she also claimed to have walked home with him that day and she saw him after school the next day -- he denied both claims."

yeah... that might fit the genereal TH theory real good, but, i'm like you i guess.. don't buy it.
[although i must say - when terry hobbs gives interviews saying he began writing a diary of the accounts of may 5th right after the murders, and then keeps giving vague, or simply wrong answers when asked by police 14 years later... i don't know. that seems suspicious to me. jmo]

"There actually is a theory that SB did try to return home -- found he had missed his mom and TH -- then went back out and met up again with the other two. This is unsubstantiated though. This is believed because of the "green, vegetable substance" that was found in his stomach, and the fact that his mom had made green beans as a side for dinner that night. If memory serves, she wrapped up his dinner."

yes.. the green beans might be an indication that he went back home at one point. yeah pam cooked that for him.. so he most probably changed clothes there.

ETA:
yes. and i'm only talking about trousers, to be clear. and in chris' pants was mike's blue wallet. NONE of the clothing was torn or bloody.

 

[leslievernon]

"[although i must say - when terry hobbs gives interviews saying he began writing a diary of the accounts of may 5th right after the murders, and then keeps giving vague, or simply wrong answers when asked by police 14 years later... i don't know. that seems suspicious to me. jmo]"

sources:
-in his june 07 wmpd interview he said that he began writing a diary as early as may 5th, everything that happened, trying to cope with that, is what i think he said, to that effect.
-in an interview with janice broach with WMCTV from aug. 08 he said that he began writing may 6th.
-in july 09 he told pasdar's laywers in the depo that he began writing it sometimes in the 90s, early 90s.

trying to sell it as a book, i don't know if he ever published a book.. but he still says "can't remember" many times when questioned. that's just one of the reasons he's so suspicious to me.

but let's carry on.

 

[Sasquatch321]

People say and you read about the "false confession" of Jessie Misskelly. But Jessie Misskelly confessed no less than 5 times. Then the forgotten evidence of a dna testing of one of Damiens pendant necklaces that had spots of blood and became matched to one of the victims.

 

[leslievernon]

@Sasquatch321

reg. echols' necklace:
again, somebody correct me, but the whole thing went like this:

a day before the verdict was read in the E/B trial, the state tried to introduce a new piece of evidence - that necklace, which they took from echols 10 months before, on the day of his arrest.
on that necklace, NO blood, but tiny specks of genetic material were detected. jason allegedly used to wear that necklace, too.
the prosecutor told the judge, that the conducted tests on the necklace yielded no valuable result. judge burnett didn't allow the necklace to be submitted as evidence at that point of the trial.

i believe that's it reg. the necklace. so don't know where you got your information from.

look.... do you know that in march 2011 judge laser ordered an evidentiary hearing? here. scheduled for sometime between oct and dec 2011. i have it all in front of me i followed that whole thing up to the alford pleas, all the decisions made by state and defense. this was very interesting to see both sides and how they reacted...

 

[Sasquatch321]

@Sasquatch321

reg. echols' necklace:
again, somebody correct me, but the whole thing went like this:

a day before the verdict was read in the E/B trial, the state tried to introduce a new piece of evidence - that necklace, which they took from echols 10 months before, on the day of his arrest.
on that necklace, NO blood, but tiny specks of genetic material were detected. jason allegedly used to wear that necklace, too.
the prosecutor told the judge, that the conducted tests on the necklace yielded no valuable result. judge burnett didn't allow the necklace to be submitted as evidence at that point of the trial.

i believe that's it reg. the necklace. so don't know where you got your information from.

look.... do you know that in march 2011 judge laser ordered an evidentiary hearing? here. scheduled for sometime between oct and dec 2011. i have it all in front of me i followed that whole thing up to the alford pleas, all the decisions made by state and defense. this was very interesting to see both sides and how they reacted...

They were able to gather a certain percentage of a dna match to at least one of the boys with the pendant. Because of the method of dna testing used back then, once it was tested, it could not be tested again. The main reason it wasnt admissable.

 

[leslievernon]

"They were able to gather a certain percentage of a dna match to at least one of the boys with the pendant."

what certain percentage of a DNA match? .. this feels like pulling teeth. don't you think the state would have waved that in front of the defense's face while all that was going on in 2011, at one point... or any damning results of a re-testing of jessie's t-shirt with actual blood on it...?

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

hey everyone, I had a weekend's break from the case. I feel like I need to take a break every so often as this case is so overwhelming and I do find myself becoming slightly obsessed and my brain gets overloaded with dark thoughts/images

I'm not sure I believe the Terry Hobb's sighting with the boys on May 5th. It seemed to take a lot of years before this lady came forward with her information and she could have been confused with another day but I guess we will never know for sure?

I remember watching a clip on youtube regarding the discovery of the necklace and I had thought that blood was found on it that was consistent with Stevie? of course just because it was consistent with does not mean it was indeed Stevie's but I thought it had been confirmed as blood?

 

[leslievernon]

@Alyssa (and i know how tough it is finding something..)

i have 2 versions written down reg. that damn necklace - one with "tiny specks of biolog. material" and one with "tiny specks of blood"... it was blood. but the outcome is the same: inconclusive results, and as Sasquatch rightfully said - the material was gone after that test.
and in 97, echols wanted it to be re-tested again.

here, read this conversation between davis, prize, and ford reg. the necklace in front of the judge, during a hearing in march 94.

 

[Userid]

Yes, all of you are right about the necklace. It was mentioned in a deleted scene from PL1, which I've linked below: