New to this case and new to the forum

[leslievernon]

hm... intersting thought.
i guess that would have been nearly as awkward (is that the right word?) as bringing them from somewhere else to the ditch... which is my theory as you know.

still, the thing with the clothing bothers me the most:
stevie's blue jeans appear to have been removed by stevie himself. green backpacks, red shorts.. you may disregard that single sighting - and we just have that one report reg. different clothes, yes, but one of the baileys actually talked to one of the boys, which is why he could offer a little bit more detail, in contrast to someone who just saw them riding by...

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

Hi all,

I haven't disappeared, I just feel I have to take a break now and then as this case really gets to me.

I really value all of your opinions from both sides!

ok so, has it been confirmed that blood was found at the scene?

 

[leslievernon]

hey alyssa,
it is better if you look at the wmpd findings yourself (callahan page - crime scene info, luminol...)
or read the dialog between me and Userid, on the previous page, i guess.

"has it been confirmed that blood was found at the scene?"
there was no visible blood. that's why you use luminol..

still, with the luminol, to me this is no indication that this was the actual crime scene. because whoever did it, he had 3 bleeding bodies, which were IMO laying there at the ditchbank when he had to prepare (shoelaces, bindings..) one by one for submerging... hence the blood. then, when they find blood in the ditch.. of course, the bodies were found in there as we know. and blood on the ground where the police laid the bodies.. the soil there would of course also react positive to blood.

 

[dogmatica]

if we knew exactly from where E1,2,3 was from... also, some of the links on callys just won't work anymore.

but let's go through it:
either way... if the boys were killed there, OR, if they were killed somewhere else, and then were brought to the ditch... in either way, the killer is occupied with 1 body at a time, leaving the other 2 bleeding bodies on the ground.. of course they will find blood there.

... i think that was my thought back then, reg. the blood and the luminol results.

There were 3 killers, so no need for bodies to be handled one at a time.

 

[dogmatica]

ok so, has it been confirmed that blood was found at the scene?

That's correct.

 

[dogmatica]

hey alyssa,
it is better if you look at the wmpd findings yourself (callahan page - crime scene info, luminol...)
or read the dialog between me and Userid, on the previous page, i guess.

"has it been confirmed that blood was found at the scene?"
there was no visible blood. that's why you use luminol..

still, with the luminol, to me this is no indication that this was the actual crime scene. because whoever did it, he had 3 bleeding bodies, which were IMO laying there at the ditchbank when he had to prepare (shoelaces, bindings..) one by one for submerging... hence the blood. then, when they find blood in the ditch.. of course, the bodies were found in there as we know. and blood on the ground where the police laid the bodies.. the soil there would of course also react positive to blood.

Why would 1 person tie 3 totally different knots?

 

[Userid]

Hi all,

I haven't disappeared, I just feel I have to take a break now and then as this case really gets to me.

I really value all of your opinions from both sides!

ok so, has it been confirmed that blood was found at the scene?

Yes, blood was found at the scene. There was blood detected where the bodies were laid by detective Ridge (when he removed them from the culvert) and there was blood found in other areas as well (separate from where the bodies were laid).

In this following graphic, you will see where the luminol not only detected the presence of blood, but where it was confirmed there was blood:

The most interesting spots in the above map, are the two spots side-by-side one another just behind the tree line (if you follow the one trail going toward "the top of turtle hill".

 

[Userid]

hm... intersting thought.
i guess that would have been nearly as awkward (is that the right word?) as bringing them from somewhere else to the ditch... which is my theory as you know.

still, the thing with the clothing bothers me the most:
stevie's blue jeans appear to have been removed by stevie himself. green backpacks, red shorts.. you may disregard that single sighting - and we just have that one report reg. different clothes, yes, but one of the baileys actually talked to one of the boys, which is why he could offer a little bit more detail, in contrast to someone who just saw them riding by...

The problem I have with that theory is that, if the bodies were transported, by the bindings, naked -- there would be huge blood trails that would lead to the original crime/attack site. Also, as I mentioned before, it's simply impossible that the bodies were transported by the bindings in this fashion. The slack in the bindings would have caused the bodies to be "dragged" or make contact with the ground, assuming they were carried one body per hand. Also, this would have caused immense strain on the forearms and shoulders, awkwardly carrying a 60 pound limp body in this fashion.

Yes, I don't believe the OB Jr. sighting necessarily. It's suspicious, but he's the only one who has them dressed this way. Also, why in the world would they all have green backpacks? Just seems like they would have different backpacks. Anyways, he wasn't the only witness who put them in different clothes -- can't remember who it was exactly now. but one witness had them all on bikes (3) and wearing different clothes too, etc.

I'm curious: why do you think SB's jeans were removed by SB himself?

 

[leslievernon]

because - correct me if i am wrong:
mike's and chris' pants were found heavily soiled, turned inside out, and closed fly. that indicates to me that the pants were pulled off, most prob. by the killer.
but stevie's blue jeans was not heavily soiled, not turned inside out, and open fly. that indicated to me that the pulling off happened differently. now that could be just because the killer was in a hurry..blablabla and it happened. sure.

or, and that's my thinking... stevie did not wear his blue jeans anymore when he and mike and chris entered the woods...
(that is why i pointed out the bailey sighting)

of course, nobody asked any of the hobbs if stevie had such particular red shorts, and even the green backpacks.
also, don't forget the vegetable material, not that digested, in stevie's stomach.. maybe an indication that he went back home at one point.

ETA:
it's just my own thinking.. as to why stevie and mike should have green backpacks. since they were friends, i still believe they had a particular plan this day.. but, someone interferred with that, sadly, as we know..

 

[leslievernon]

@dogmatica
3 different kinds of knots... says nothing. it maybe says that 3 different minded people had to knot it, or 1 person with a bit of a more-than-average knowledge of knots, bound them accordingly, to get such a "hog-tied" binding, in a hurry, when it was getting dark, or in the dark.

reg. blood:
and even if there were 3 killers... the bodies did lay there for some time, not only for the binding but don't forget that whole fairy tale of perversion as claimed by the state, lasted for some minutes at least... plenty of time for blood soaking into the ground. think about the so-called "emasculation", i mean... you are downplaying your own version of the story, which is the state's story. this is weak.

 

[dogmatica]

@dogmatica
3 different kinds of knots... says nothing. it maybe says that 3 different minded people had to knot it, or 1 person with a bit of a more-than-average knowledge of knots, bound them accordingly, to get such a "hog-tied" binding, in a hurry, when it was getting dark, or in the dark.

reg. blood:
and even if there were 3 killers... the bodies did lay there for some time, not only for the binding but don't forget that whole fairy tale of perversion as claimed by the state, lasted for some minutes at least... plenty of time for blood soaking into the ground. think about the so-called "emasculation", i mean... you are downplaying your own version of the story, which is the state's story. this is weak.

Simply stating something "means nothing" doesn't make that so. You've done that with all the evidence that convicted the Wm3. That's the supporter MO. Simply to state "that proves nothing". Clearly, you're incorrect. Simply denying something's existence to fit your narrative doesn't mean it doesn't, in fact, exist. Your explanation of three different types of knots isn't an explanation at all. The actual explanation is - there were three different people.

How am I downplaying anything? That makes no sense. Again, simply stating something is "weak" means nothing. Nothing in your post holds any water, at all. You can't just dismiss something because you don't like it.

 

[Userid]

because - correct me if i am wrong:
mike's and chris' pants were found heavily soiled, turned inside out, and closed fly. that indicates to me that the pants were pulled off, most prob. by the killer.
but stevie's blue jeans was not heavily soiled, not turned inside out, and open fly. that indicated to me that the pulling off happened differently. now that could be just because the killer was in a hurry..blablabla and it happened. sure.

or, and that's my thinking... stevie did not wear his blue jeans anymore when he and mike and chris entered the woods...
(that is why i pointed out the bailey sighting)

of course, nobody asked any of the hobbs if stevie had such particular red shorts, and even the green backpacks.
also, don't forget the vegetable material, not that digested, in stevie's stomach.. maybe an indication that he went back home at one point.

ETA:
it's just my own thinking.. as to why stevie and mike should have green backpacks. since they were friends, i still believe they had a particular plan this day.. but, someone interferred with that, sadly, as we know..

E1, E2, and E3 were not dirt samples; they were clothes samples, that were evidently checked for blood. So that explains that issue we were discussing earlier (scroll down). ...:::Murders In West Memphis:::...

I can't find the source right now, but I thought that one of the pants were found "right-side in." Any way, I don't really think that would indicate that SB's pants were removed by SB himself, simply because the button was unbuttoned, but that's just me.

 

[Userid]

I should revise my prior post: E1, 2, & 3 were indeed soil samples, but they were soil samples from where those items (E1, 2, 3) were laid.

 

[leslievernon]

if these are the actual E-numbers... too bad those first few "Evidence Submission List" links on callahan are dead... what were the first things they collected from the scene?
i know the friendship bracelet appears on a sheet even before they started E-ing the items. very early on. ... the medical bracelet, that you were talking baout, probably too, or do you know more about that?

it is again eerie to think that the killer took those items...

reg. tying-up the victims:
the hog-tying, and the drowning... doesn't that indicate that the initial attack didn't convince the killer that they were really dead...? again, because the post-killing activity is so awkward, and time-consuming... that it was more of a desperate attempt to make sure they will die. and not for any other reason.
how many victims had skull base fractures? 1.. or all 3?

 

[Userid]

The first things collected from the scene were the clothes, since they were right next to MM within the creek. Hence, why they are titled "1, 2, 3" etc.

The medical bracelet was never recovered (found at the scene) or found on CB. There was also mention about a "money clip" that CB supposedly had, but the family was more adamant about the medical bracelet.

Yes, I used to think that this is why they were bound -- to ensure they would perish and be unable to escape any body of water. Perhaps a victim was still breathing, etc. It's never been confirmed, but it's been speculated that the killer used sticks (like he did with the clothes) to drive down the bindings in the dirt bed of the creek, so the bodies wouldn't surface. Two of the victims were alive and had abrasions around the bindings, so I still can't rule out that they were used simply as a form of control during the initial attack.

All 3 had skull fractures. Can't remember which one had the basilar skull fracture, it might have been either SB or CB. I've heard that one victim had a boot imprint on the back of his head -- I've never seen the autopsy photo, but supposedly you can see it, as if someone was stomping on the back of the victim's head. I imagine this is the same victim with the basilar skull fracture.

Can you post the link that doesn't work?

 

[leslievernon]

here, some "Evidence submission forms" seem to be dead..

no wait - just change callahan.8k.com to callahan.mysite.com (hey, and i always thought i am too dumb for such things

finally...

E-1 Pair of Pants and Pullover Shirt in Bag worn by above Suspect
E-2 Envelope of Head Hair from Suspect

(suspect: john witner - transient)

ETA:
i actually thought that they labeled the soil samples (for luminol testing) as E-1, E-2.. no, this is the actual E-list of course. you're right.

yeah, that was the bag, BIC razor.. stuff from the transient. now i remember.

 

[Userid]

Yeah, I was just going to say, change 8K to mysite -- the 8k domain expired. I remember when everyone thought the site was lost forever, which would be an utter shame. Luckily, the original people involved in acquiring all the evidence got a new domain -- I think they have to pay for it out of their own pocket too, if I'm not mistaken. We should all be thankful to them for that.

Wait, you're confusing certain items now:

The items that were tested at the lab (I'm assuming, since they were placed on soil), are the E - A series. E-1 (A), E-2 (A), E-3 (A).

The items from John W. are part of the E-B series. E-1 (B), E-2 (B).

This page breaks it down well: ...:::Murders In West Memphis:::...

 

[leslievernon]

"All 3 had skull fractures. Can't remember which one had the basilar skull fracture, it might have been either SB or CB. I've heard that one victim had a boot imprint on the back of his head -- I've never seen the autopsy photo, but supposedly you can see it, as if someone was stomping on the back of the victim's head. I imagine this is the same victim with the basilar skull fracture."

didn't we talk about that a few days ago.. the boot imprint during the whole wound discussion?

yeah, i looked at that impression on steven's head again (it was really just a google search and there it is) and i just can't tell... i know because you said it, that jacki hicks sr. said it looked like boot prints, or military.. he actually confirmed that, that it was a shoe, at least. it is too bad, that peretti could not. if there would be no b. turvey report, i guess we wouldn't be talking about it right now...

 

[Fire Fox 2]

alright, calm down a bit, please.

this is the Nth time i am confronted with everything that you said...

let's get right to the evidence:
1. no DNA from any of the WM3 was found at the scene. ..helpful, actually, if you claim you're innocent.
2. can you tell me exactly which shoelace from which shoe was used to bind which ankle and/or wrist from which victim?

... yes, there we go. that was tough figuring that all out back then but it was a collaborative effort and imo a very valuable one. the state crime lab could not figure out which belonged to which, i mean.. like they cared. the laces were cut, in order to bind up the boys. also important.

a "reddish beard hair", was the only thing found on one of the laces. mtDNA confirmed it was terry hobbs. look at a pic of him during the trial - red hair, red beard.

now i don't say that it had to have come from steven's lace - secondary transfer, i got you - but.... the ice is very thin here - could it be from mike's lace.. from chris' lace... highly interesting, especially when they found no hair from any other parent.

you put that strong piece of evidence together with everything else we know about this suspect - a suspect that NEVER was a suspect for the WMPD, a guy who was NEVER asked by police until 14 f*ing years after the crime.....

why would they ignore a stepfather like that?

this guy had a violent temper, hated his own son (and vice versa) and HAD a window of opportunity on may 5th - don't believe me - read the affidavit of his good pal david jacoby, who was with him some of the time during the search, but not all the time... hobbs thought he had an alibi through jacoby, but jacoby f*ed his alibi up, by giving a detailed, credible account of that evening.

hey - don't listen to me, stick with misskelleys outrageous story... the way i see it, this crime was far more realistic.

I agree with you on this. I see ZERO physical evidence linking the M3 to the crimes. The step-dad is my best guess. The poor mentally challenged kid reminds me of Steven Avery’s nephew being COERCED. Each day I grow more worried about our justice system.

 

[Fire Fox 2]

Killers get released from prison all the time. The DA gave their reasons for accepting the deal...I understood why but did not agree with it. I wanted to see Echols get the chair.

I think Echols and Baldwin are the epitome of evil. I think Misskelley is certainly a bad guy, but I think he got caught up, had too much to drink, looked up to Echols and got caught up in the thrill and the pressure of it. I think he was the only one with any remorse and regret - hence he kept confessing and was sobbing all the time when he was at home afterwards. I think he feels guilt still. Echols and Baldwin do not.

Actually, death row killers RARELY get out. Lifers RARELY get out. I assist with the innocence project in Louisiana. You have to find your own new evidence to stand a chance of winning an appeal much less a new trial and get released. Where’s the physical evidence linking those 3? Besides a fiber or 2? The blood scrapings conveniently lost. A boy in BoJangles covered in blood that no one went in and worked that possible crime scene? How do you not immediately rope that off and collect evidence? SMH