GUILTY New Zealand - Dr. Lauren Dickason, 40, charged w/killing her 3 young daughters, Timaru, 16 Sep 2021

[Cedars]

IMO I disagree with this psychiatrist for the defense. The psychiatrist says, "she did not perceive that what she was doing was morally wrong,"

IMO/JMO.

IMO, most murderers don't perceive 'this is morally wrong'. They just think 'this is what what I want to do, and so I'm going to go ahead and do it'.

What may have previously prevented them from killing people might be their distaste for blood/dead bodies and all that entails, fear they might be over-powered during physical violence, or fear they'll be caught.

They also tend to justify themselves in the same way: 'this victim deserves it'.

ie, 'My girlfriend hurt me, so I'm going to kill her.' 'These women are just prostitutes so I'm going to kill them'. 'I really want to kill someone, so I'm going to kill the next likely victim I see'.

Under this psychiatrists criteria, I think most all of the murder cases I'm following could be classified as 'not criminally responsible'.

JMO

 

[Cedars]

I would like this saddening case to include the issues related to pregnancy, delivery, postpartum period, community support vs lack thereof, how much responsibility still rests with the mother. If this case was preventable? If there is some learning experience to gather, what is most critical? Missed mental component, too many IVFs, PTSD, the tendency to push all care on women, something else?

I agree there are many issues that make having children a very heavy burden on mothers, including highly educated women who apparently have it all.

What I don't understand is how something goes from some complaints, some symptoms that all is not well, straight to triple murder.

Seemingly nothing in between: no smashing dishes, locking the kids in their rooms, shouting at husband to stay home and help, when he tries to leave for his party.

Very creepy how this psychosis manifested with such supreme, targetted self-control.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I agree there are many issues that make having children a very heavy burden on mothers, including highly educated women who apparently have it all.

What I don't understand is how something goes from some complaints, some symptoms that all is not well, straight to triple murder.

Seemingly nothing in between: no smashing dishes, locking the kids in their rooms, shouting at husband to stay home and help, when he tries to leave for his party.

Very creepy how this psychosis manifested with such supreme, targetted self-control.

JMO

Maybe not that simple. I think in an article linked in this thread, it was mentioned that she was hitting the girls. At one point she and Graham discussed their behavior and decided that they’d be hitting them (I don’t know what it entailed; sounds like corporal punishment to me?)

It can explain a lot about the girls’ behavior, btw.

JMO - I suspect that the nanny could provide a lot of information about what was going on in the house.

Thinking about the egg donors and the eggs, too. The embryos are tested for genetic conditions and all, but there is absolute lack of protection from mentally ill and abusive parents for them.

 

[kiwi50]

What killer mum told psychiatrist, husband after deaths

Letters sent by Lauren Dickason to her husband after she was arrested revealed in court.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Graham Dickason reportedly wrote to his wife after he returned to South Africa saying he could not understand how the alleged murders had happened.

In reply, Dickason told her husband she had “difficulty understanding his lack of understanding” given he had “been there with her all through it”.

 

[Charlot123]

Lauren Dickason trial: Harrowing fertility journey outlined by husband

Lauren Anne Dickason has admitted killing 6yo Liané and 2yo twins Maya and Karla.

www.nzherald.co.nz

I see real reason for her to be overwhelmed - I was under the impression that she had the night nanny from the very beginning, but it seems, no, only with the twins.

I am also under an impression that Graham was trying to escape the family situation more often than not. Like, about that hunting trip mentioned here - does one really need to go on a hunting trip if there is an exhausted, mentally unstable wife at home with three kids? He knew at least about her depression. The article below mentions “intermittent mood disorder” as the diagnosis, and being a doctor, Graham had to see it. Nothing wrong in having a mood disorder and being the mother, but he had to prevail upon her to take medications; I have a feeling he had more clout there.

Mum accused of triple murder 'resentful' towards kids - prosecution (about the diagnosis of “intermittent mood disorder”).

Now, this part is my pure speculation. I am honestly on the fence whether Lauren was clinically insane when killing the girls, or extremely angry and planned very well, or both. I suspect, a mixture of both, but let us assume she either planned to kill herself, but was stopped by another thought and made a half-hearted attempt, or, she never planned to kill herself, only the girls.

Let us assume both L and G wanted to have kids, that 17 IVFs were hard on both and some cracks could never heal. In short, L carrying and giving birth to the children did not bring him closer as the family unit, that the kids were mostly pushed on L and left with her, and with the Covid and loss of the night nurse, it was all only her. At that time, lack of sleep must have pushed her close to the edge. I suspect this truly happened. Let’s assume that L was very angry with G because with three kids, she lost her mental stability, her professional independence, and her family was anything but perfect. And G was minimally involved, moreover, coming home from work, he’d be the preferred parent for the girls.

Here is pure assumption. With three kids gone and her gone, G would be totally free.

With L in a mental institution, I doubt divorce would be easy.

I don’t think she is telling the full story, because if she goes to the mental facility, she doesn’t need to.

One thing that Lauren may not understand but what I expect can happen is that if properly treated in a mental facility, Lauren would get more lucid, and then the enormous horror of what she’d done would overwhelm her. So in a way, it would be a worse punishment.

I am constantly asking myself, why is G back in Pretoria? One reason could be financial, if this situation deprived him of NZ work visa. If not, him returning back might mean that he wants to close this page of his life.

 

[kiwi50]

Lauren Dickason trial: Harrowing fertility journey outlined by husband

Lauren Anne Dickason has admitted killing 6yo Liané and 2yo twins Maya and Karla.

www.nzherald.co.nz

I see real reason for her to be overwhelmed - I was under the impression that she had the night nanny from the very beginning, but it seems, no, only with the twins.

I am also under an impression that Graham was trying to escape the family situation more often than not. Like, about that hunting trip mentioned here - does one really need to go on a hunting trip if there is an exhausted, mentally unstable wife at home with three kids? He knew at least about her depression. The article below mentions “intermittent mood disorder” as the diagnosis, and being a doctor, Graham had to see it. Nothing wrong in having a mood disorder and being the mother, but he had to prevail upon her to take medications; I have a feeling he had more clout there.

Mum accused of triple murder 'resentful' towards kids - prosecution (about the diagnosis of “intermittent mood disorder”).

Now, this part is my pure speculation. I am honestly on the fence whether Lauren was clinically insane when killing the girls, or extremely angry and planned very well, or both. I suspect, a mixture of both, but let us assume she either planned to kill herself, but was stopped by another thought and made a half-hearted attempt, or, she never planned to kill herself, only the girls.

Let us assume both L and G wanted to have kids, that 17 IVFs were hard on both and some cracks could never heal. In short, L carrying and giving birth to the children did not bring him closer as the family unit, that the kids were mostly pushed on L and left with her, and with the Covid and loss of the night nurse, it was all only her. At that time, lack of sleep must have pushed her close to the edge. I suspect this truly happened. Let’s assume that L was very angry with G because with three kids, she lost her mental stability, her professional independence, and her family was anything but perfect. And G was minimally involved, moreover, coming home from work, he’d be the preferred parent for the girls.

Here is pure assumption. With three kids gone and her gone, G would be totally free.

With L in a mental institution, I doubt divorce would be easy.

I don’t think she is telling the full story, because if she goes to the mental facility, she doesn’t need to.

One thing that Lauren may not understand but what I expect can happen is that if properly treated in a mental facility, Lauren would get more lucid, and then the enormous horror of what she’d done would overwhelm her. So in a way, it would be a worse punishment.

I am constantly asking myself, why is G back in Pretoria? One reason could be financial, if this situation deprived him of NZ work visa. If not, him returning back might mean that he wants to close this page of his life.

I don’t blame him for going back to South Africa, NZ really had nothing to offer him, once his family was destroyed, no happy times here.
I hope Lauren is sent back there too, no point keeping her here.
I hope Graham meets someone nice, and gets some future happiness.
There are no winners in this case, whatever the jury decides.

 

[silvercrown]

Lauren Dickason trial: Harrowing fertility journey outlined by husband

Lauren Anne Dickason has admitted killing 6yo Liané and 2yo twins Maya and Karla.

www.nzherald.co.nz

I see real reason for her to be overwhelmed - I was under the impression that she had the night nanny from the very beginning, but it seems, no, only with the twins.

I am also under an impression that Graham was trying to escape the family situation more often than not. Like, about that hunting trip mentioned here - does one really need to go on a hunting trip if there is an exhausted, mentally unstable wife at home with three kids? He knew at least about her depression. The article below mentions “intermittent mood disorder” as the diagnosis, and being a doctor, Graham had to see it. Nothing wrong in having a mood disorder and being the mother, but he had to prevail upon her to take medications; I have a feeling he had more clout there.

Mum accused of triple murder 'resentful' towards kids - prosecution (about the diagnosis of “intermittent mood disorder”).

Now, this part is my pure speculation. I am honestly on the fence whether Lauren was clinically insane when killing the girls, or extremely angry and planned very well, or both. I suspect, a mixture of both, but let us assume she either planned to kill herself, but was stopped by another thought and made a half-hearted attempt, or, she never planned to kill herself, only the girls.

Let us assume both L and G wanted to have kids, that 17 IVFs were hard on both and some cracks could never heal. In short, L carrying and giving birth to the children did not bring him closer as the family unit, that the kids were mostly pushed on L and left with her, and with the Covid and loss of the night nurse, it was all only her. At that time, lack of sleep must have pushed her close to the edge. I suspect this truly happened. Let’s assume that L was very angry with G because with three kids, she lost her mental stability, her professional independence, and her family was anything but perfect. And G was minimally involved, moreover, coming home from work, he’d be the preferred parent for the girls.

Here is pure assumption. With three kids gone and her gone, G would be totally free.

With L in a mental institution, I doubt divorce would be easy.

I don’t think she is telling the full story, because if she goes to the mental facility, she doesn’t need to.

One thing that Lauren may not understand but what I expect can happen is that if properly treated in a mental facility, Lauren would get more lucid, and then the enormous horror of what she’d done would overwhelm her. So in a way, it would be a worse punishment.

I am constantly asking myself, why is G back in Pretoria? One reason could be financial, if this situation deprived him of NZ work visa. If not, him returning back might mean that he wants to close this page of his life.

17 rounds of IVF!? Not doubting you would have posted this if it wasn’t in MSM or covered in the trial, but just to comment and say that this is HUGE! I’ve never heard of anybody going through so many attempts. Again, not an excuse but I really have to wonder if anybody (including Lauren) noticed or cared about the emotional and physical toll that 17 rounds of IVF would have had on her.

The poster above me said it best, there are no winners in this case.

I can’t reconcile this be anything but related to unmanaged/poorly managed mental health crises. Otherwise, is there any indication of anything in her past indicating traits of psychopathy? Hurting animals, narcissistic behaviour, medical malpractice? I’m not an expert so this a generalisation and is of course MOO.

I look forward to anything further coming out which may help tie this together for me. Does anybody know how long the trial is expected to last?

IMO nothing excuses what she did. I feel a need to keep expressing that in case my posts come across as doing so. I just feel like there are many blaring warning signs which seemed to get swept under the rug.

I totally understand why Graham would have wanted to move back to South Africa. That’s his home, where his support network is. New Zealand would hold the most painful memories I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

 

[Charlot123]

17 rounds of IVF!? Not doubting you would have posted this if it wasn’t in MSM or covered in the trial, but just to comment and say that this is HUGE! I’ve never heard of anybody going through so many attempts. Again, not an excuse but I really have to wonder if anybody (including Lauren) noticed or cared about the emotional and physical toll that 17 rounds of IVF would have had on her.

The poster above me said it best, there are no winners in this case.

I can’t reconcile this be anything but related to unmanaged/poorly managed mental health crises. Otherwise, is there any indication of anything in her past indicating traits of psychopathy? Hurting animals, narcissistic behaviour, medical malpractice? I’m not an expert so this a generalisation and is of course MOO.

I look forward to anything further coming out which may help tie this together for me. Does anybody know how long the trial is expected to last?

IMO nothing excuses what she did. I feel a need to keep expressing that in case my posts come across as doing so. I just feel like there are many blaring warning signs which seemed to get swept under the rug.

I totally understand why Graham would have wanted to move back to South Africa. That’s his home, where his support network is. New Zealand would hold the most painful memories I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

17 rounds of IVF, a very traumatic situation when pregnant with own child, Sarah (forced birth when the fetus was 18 weeks). Also, PTSD from childhood according to this article. So yes, very hard. No psychopathology according to earlier articles I found out. Rather, the opposite (hint at Lauren being victimized at school?)

https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-and-courts/lauren-dickason-sa-mum-who-murdered-her-three-young-girls-10-things-weve-learnt-from-the-trial-so-far-d739289a-35f6-4f70-8e3b-6414cccdebfa

 

[silvercrown]

17 rounds of IVF, a very traumatic situation when pregnant with own child, Sarah (forced birth when the fetus was 18 weeks). Also, PTSD from childhood according to this article. So yes, very hard. No psychopathology according to earlier articles I found out. Rather, the opposite (hint at Lauren being victimized at school?)

https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-and-courts/lauren-dickason-sa-mum-who-murdered-her-three-young-girls-10-things-weve-learnt-from-the-trial-so-far-d739289a-35f6-4f70-8e3b-6414cccdebfa

Of course, I didn’t mean to overlook the 18 week miscarriage and subsequent birth. How awful for them.

 

[Sararara]

There are many horrific criminals who have had absolutely awful lives- to whom LDs life would look like paradise. Really can’t understand the empathy for her, at all. It’s obviously massively in her best interests to portray herself as mentally disturbed/insane.

Mothers can be evil. Sadly- more so towards children who are not biologically their own. Genetics are powerful.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

What killer mum told psychiatrist, husband after deaths

Letters sent by Lauren Dickason to her husband after she was arrested revealed in court.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Graham Dickason reportedly wrote to his wife after he returned to South Africa saying he could not understand how the alleged murders had happened.

In reply, Dickason told her husband she had “difficulty understanding his lack of understanding” given he had “been there with her all through it”.

Does this response to her husband indicate she still feels justified at least on some level?

All she had to do is call him or anyone, tell them the kids are alone in the house, and walk away. I guess it is not that simple.

ETA: The article you linked does quote the testimony of both psychiatrists. Including the one opinion, "McRae said the first psychiatrist to see her there had a very different view to Hatters-Friedman.

He said the doctor noted Dickason had “no prominent psychotic features” and “no clear current indication of psychotic features”."

And goes into more detail about that. Of note, though, he specifically remained open-minded about the possibility.

 

[Sararara]

The kids couldn’t sleep without Graham?
And asked for him all day?
That indicates an abnormal attachment to LD- probably because she was abusive (emotionally abusive at the very least). If she spent the most time with the kids and they wanted Graham… that is not normal.

I’ve known mothers that say the things she says. They were abusive, likely narcissistic, without ANY major red flags that would warrant interest from police or social workers. Fed and clothed the kids and made sure they did their homework. Resented every minute of it. Obsessed with the image of a perfect family.

The narcissistic rage is so apparent.
“My kids don’t like me”
“I struggled to bond”
“I want to divorce my kids”
“My kids don’t appreciate me”
“My kids abuse me” (at age 2)
“My kids hit me and throw food at me”
“K was mean to me… that’s why I killed her first”
“I feel like a bad mother”
“I am going to strangle her”
“She moans all the time”

I had a mother like this. Not psychotic, not delusional, a little paranoid, total control freak that looked like a good, sacrificing mother from the outside. Absolutely wrecked my self esteem with her horrible comments.

I am a mother. I am imperfect and I’m not wealthy and I can’t provide the things I grew up with (expensive lessons, trips overseas). But I have never thought or said any of those things about my kids. Although they do frustrate me and tire me out at times.

Why does no one believe us? There are horrible mothers. Mothers who want their children dead. Mothers who want their children to pay the ultimate price for disobedience because HOW DARE THEY DEFY ME. They are real.

For the sake of those beautiful kids, I hope the jury sees through her lies. Seems like GD does, finally.

 

[Sarahlou]

There are many horrific criminals who have had absolutely awful lives- to whom LDs life would look like paradise. Really can’t understand the empathy for her, at all. It’s obviously massively in her best interests to portray herself as mentally disturbed/insane.

Mothers can be evil. Sadly- more so towards children who are not biologically their own. Genetics are powerful.

She was/is mentally ill though, there's no denying that. It's not something she's just making up.

 

[Sararara]

Does this response to her husband indicate she still feels justified at least on some level?

All she had to do is call him or anyone, tell them the kids are alone in the house, and walk away. I guess it is not that simple.

Yes- she is subtly blaming him for what happened. I think she believes this narrative now.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

She was/is mentally ill though, there's no denying that. It's not something she's just making up.

Right but not guilty by reason of insanity/ infanticide?

A lot of people are mentally ill if you include depression, anxiety disorders, etc. in the definition.

 

[Sararara]

She was mentally ill though, there's no denying that. It's not something she's just making up.

She was/is mentally ill though, there's no denying that. It's not something she's just making up.

Sure. The Columbine shooters had severe depression too. Mental illness is an umbrella term that a lot of things fall under. If we absolved all people who had mental illnesses, likely no one would be convicted of anything.

She seems to think she is a helpless victim who just “does things” because she doesn’t have enough support. She just can’t take responsibility.

 

[silvercrown]

The kids couldn’t sleep without Graham?
And asked for him all day?
That indicates an abnormal attachment to LD- probably because she was abusive (emotionally abusive at the very least). If she spent the most time with the kids and they wanted Graham… that is not normal.

I’ve known mothers that say the things she says. They were abusive, likely narcissistic, without ANY major red flags that would warrant interest from police or social workers. Fed and clothed the kids and made sure they did their homework. Resented every minute of it. Obsessed with the image of a perfect family.

The narcissistic rage is so apparent.
“My kids don’t like me”
“I struggled to bond”
“I want to divorce my kids”
“My kids don’t appreciate me”
“My kids abuse me” (at age 2)
“My kids hit me and throw food at me”
“K was mean to me… that’s why I killed her first”
“I feel like a bad mother”
“I am going to strangle her”
“She moans all the time”

I had a mother like this. Not psychotic, not delusional, a little paranoid, total control freak that looked like a good, sacrificing mother from the outside. Absolutely wrecked my self esteem with her horrible comments.

I am a mother. I am imperfect and I’m not wealthy and I can’t provide the things I grew up with (expensive lessons, trips overseas). But I have never thought or said any of those things about my kids. Although they do frustrate me and tire me out at times.

Why does no one believe us? There are horrible mothers. Mothers who want their children dead. Mothers who want their children to pay the ultimate price for disobedience because HOW DARE THEY DEFY ME. They are real.

For the sake of those beautiful kids, I hope the jury sees through her lies. Seems like GD does, finally.

There sure are horrible mothers. I’m so sorry to hear yours was one of them.

Lauren had said to Graham that she had thoughts about killing her kids 3 different occasions. This is one of the main cruxes for me. Despite being their mother, she shouldn’t have been left in charge of them. This didn’t happen out of the blue.

She also shouldn’t have been stopping/starting her antidepressants against her doctor’s advice. I find it so bafflingly irresponsible. Her kids paid the ultimate price. It’s truly so awful.

 

[silvercrown]

There are many horrific criminals who have had absolutely awful lives- to whom LDs life would look like paradise. Really can’t understand the empathy for her, at all. It’s obviously massively in her best interests to portray herself as mentally disturbed/insane.

Mothers can be evil. Sadly- more so towards children who are not biologically their own. Genetics are powerful.

I’ve wondered about the biological part myself. I’m assuming after 17 rounds of ivf, she and her husband must have desperately been longing for children. However I wonder whether or not she truly saw them as her ‘own’, and if this may have played a role in het disordered thinking.

As for empathy, I empathise with anybody so desperate to go through 17 rounds of ivf (so tough on every aspect of the body), and who candidly shares with friends that she isn’t coping, and who has suffered PPD (which disorders thinking in different way than generalised depression imo not an expert) and who is responsible for a toddler and newborn twins (yes even with a nanny) and who has a spouse who seemed to get frustrated with and lacked understanding of exactly what she was going through. Moo and based on media reports of court testimony.

My empathy stops when someone messes with stop/starting their antidepressants, doesn’t seek more appropriate and timely help and of course when they commit triple murder.

 

[cjm11]

Lauren Dickason trial: Harrowing fertility journey outlined by husband

Lauren Anne Dickason has admitted killing 6yo Liané and 2yo twins Maya and Karla.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Good article about Graham’s testimony. Thanks to Charlot123. Some points that popped out to me.

Her parents and brother have travelled to New Zealand from South Africa to support her in court. Her husband’s sisters are also attending the trial. Graham Dickason - who has remained in South Africa but appears via audio-visual link - spoke for the first time about the death of his “gorgeous” daughters.

Why is he in SA? Seems he would want to be in NZ to support her. I don't understand this.

When she lost Sarah: The couple got to see and hold the little girl briefly before she was taken away. The death was categorised as a miscarriage and Dickason was not able to take her child home which affected her significantly.

How horrible. The baby had a heartbeat but didn't survive. They didn't allowed the mother to take her and the hospital "disposed" her?? Is that common here in the USA?

Dickason was parenting for much of the time on her own due to the demands of Graham Dickason’s job. He also thought it would be fine for himself to go on a hunting trip.

Three small children, post partum depression, major depression and severe anxiety and she was left to care for the kids mainly on her own.

A hunting trip, really?!? He knew her mental state, she told him the new and harrowing thoughts she was having that really scared her, but he needed time away for a hunting trip, yeah.


Graham: "I am very aware that you feel this way. I am just very unsure how to help you - actually I am realising I can’t help you, you have to manage by yourself."

YOU HAVE TO MANAGE BY YOURSELF?!? What a husband. SMH.

She was screaming about her mental health. No one took her seriously. Then after the murders everyone is dumbfounded as to how that happened.

 

[cjm11]

Also from Charlot123's post above

Mum accused of triple murder 'resentful' towards kids - prosecution

Lauren Dickason was quiet and calm as the charges were read to her.

www.nzherald.co.nz

McRae said when Lauren woke up later she was “in shock and horror and surprised to be alive”.

She did want to really die, imo