GUILTY New Zealand - Dr. Lauren Dickason, 40, charged w/killing her 3 young daughters, Timaru, 16 Sep 2021

[silvercrown]

But no one said they can't have IVF treatment. It's being offended for no reason in a thread about the murder of 3 children, it's making it about IVF instead of the case in hand. Basically, it's off topic.
There's anger about these little girls being killed, why is it now about who should or shouldn't have IVF? This feet stamping is very inappropriate imo.

Im not really sure how to respond, as this isn’t my take of any comments that have been made with regards to the case and IVF.

I’d just say that I haven’t got the impression that anybody’s comments here have made the case about IVF instead of the girls. It’s just discussion of the circumstances MOO

Edit: also not getting any feet-stamping vibes from anyone at any time here. I’ve enjoyed reading everybody’s viewpoints especially ones that have given me pause to think.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Im not really sure how to respond, as this isn’t my take of any comments that have been made with regards to the case and IVF.

I’d just say that I haven’t got the impression that anybody’s comments here have made the case about IVF instead of the girls. It’s just discussion of the circumstances MOO

Edit: also not getting any feet-stamping vibes from anyone at any time here. I’ve enjoyed reading everybody’s viewpoints especially ones that have given me pause to think.

I understand the use of the word 'disgusting' as an indicator of strong feelings about a comment made about a woman accused of murdering her children.

Maybe, LD getting what she wanted because she could afford it, doesn't make it a wise or right decision for HER. It's not about others who've had IVF treatments and shouldn't be made about themselves.
The OP might like to chime in if I've misunderstood her comment because I don't think I did.

 

[silvercrown]

I understand the use the word 'disgusting' as an indicator of strong feelings about a comment made about a woman accused of murdering her children.

Maybe, LD getting what she wanted because she could afford it, doesn't make it a wise or right decision for HER. It's not about others who've had IVF treatments and shouldn't be made about themselves.
The OP might like to chime in if I've misunderstood her comment because I don't think I did.

I agree, maybe it wasn’t the right choice for Lauren. This is why I’m so curious as to the opinions of her treating doctor/s for more insight into her state of mind and wellbeing as it relates to the case. Personally this is why I feel like IVF discussion is so relevant to this case.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Lauren Dickason trial: What the jury heard in third week of high-profile murder case

Recap of what jury have heard so far as defence opens its case in Lauren Dickason trial.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[alexwood]

FDA approves first pill for postpartum depression

In trials, the treatment improved depression symptoms among new mothers as early as three days after they started the medication.

www.nbcnews.com

This looks very useful.

 

[caradana]

I’m not sure that’s what @caradana was implying.

Moo A woman has as much of a right to seek fertility treatment just as a cancer patient has the right to seek cancer treatment. I took the comment to refer generally to body autonomy rather than ‘defying the will of nature’

ETA I mean, obviously this case is not one of the ‘generally’ ones I refer to above. I’m so curious about the physical and psychological support and counselling the Dickasons received throughout their 17 rounds of IVF and whether or not her doctor/s advised against it for whatever reason. I would have thought this may have been relevant at trial?

IVF is so hard on the body, I can’t imagine the toll 17 rounds would take.

Well done, @silvercrown - thanks

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

Stop the bickering and snark in this discussion. If you find a post 'disgusting' or don't like a post, scroll & roll .. it's not necessary to lash out or respond to every single post or challenge every opinion presented by other members. Opinions are just that and not everyone else's opinion is going to agree with yours !!

If a post is in violation of TOS, use the Report feature to let Mods know and let them deal with it. There is never any reason to get snarky or antagonistic in any discussion at Websleuths. Doing so may land you on the outside looking in.

Post accordingly. Thank you.

 

[Charlot123]

I understand the use of the word 'disgusting' as an indicator of strong feelings about a comment made about a woman accused of murdering her children.

Maybe, LD getting what she wanted because she could afford it, doesn't make it a wise or right decision for HER. It's not about others who've had IVF treatments and shouldn't be made about themselves.
The OP might like to chime in if I've misunderstood her comment because I don't think I did.

It is not an open-and-shut case. Cases like "a rich wife orders a hit on her ex", for example, have low teaching value. Remove "rich" and we see them daily. Not so with the Dickason’s case. It touches on so many issies. First, how stigmatizing, poorly studied and essentially, tragic mental health diagnosis could be. How hard it might be on the patient, the partner, the family. How perfect people have to look, how hard to try. Second, we are being told of post-Covid rise in depression. Which also means that more young women of childbearing age will be diagnosed with this condition. I am 100% behind women's wish to have kids. However, the situation emphacizes the need for better support, care and protection of mentally ill mothers. But as we see, women have to hide it, out of fear of losing their careers or the right to be accepted in another country, or ruining their families.

If we don't pay attention and discuss hormones and mental health, or postpartum depression, or menopause and mental health, life will shove these issues in the society's face. Yet there is not enough attention dedicated to female health, starting with contraception and mood swings in teenagers.

We got this case. I hope we shall have enough information to discuss it all, prevention, treatment, fertility, pregnancy, delivery, insomnia, effects of Covid and isolation, and mainly, the support system - what mothers need, and what they get.

And you are right that it is about Liane, Karla and Maya. Likewise, it is about the parents. I just feel we can't say "lock her up and throw away the key" until we understand what really happened. I feel we might be slowly getting there.

 

[Charlot123]

Lauren was used to having a nanny but then thrown into a hotel room for 2 weeks with twin babies, a 6 year old and a husband.

How much support was she receiving?
This is truly devastating.

My daughter spent 2 weeks quarantine with a balcony and she still says it was the hardest time of her life.

I have a feeling that quarantine period might have been the tipping point. Who knows what other underlying personal problems they were suffering.

That, and add, that in South Africa they had a lot of sun and open backyard. I haven't been to the South Island, only to the North one, so we have to ask the New Zealanders. The South Island is closer to the South pole - depending on the season, days can be very long or very short. Rain or shine? Plus, a hotel room. Did that rapid change in the amount of sun contribute?

 

[annpats]

That, and add, that in South Africa they had a lot of sun and open backyard. I haven't been to the South Island, only to the North one, so we have to ask the New Zealanders. The South Island is closer to the South pole - depending on the season, days can be very long or very short. Rain or shine? Plus, a hotel room. Did that rapid change in the amount of sun contribute?

Today, in Timaru, NZ, it is a high of 9°C and a low of 2°C. So it's the end of their winter, coming into Spring.

It's beginning of August and they emigrated from South Africa during September, so the temperatures may have been a couple of degrees higher then, but not much.

 

[Charlot123]

Comparison of weathers

Timaru Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (New Zealand) - Weather Spark

In Timaru, the summers are comfortable; the winters are short, cold, and windy; and it is partly cloudy year round. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 38°F to 68°F and is rarely below 32°F or above 78°F.

weatherspark.com

Timaru September Weather, Average Temperature (New Zealand) - Weather Spark

In Timaru during September average daily high temperatures increase from 55°F to 59°F and it is overcast or mostly cloudy about 45% of the time.

weatherspark.com

the closest place in the world for Timaru weather-wise is Bunker Hill, Oregon. And yes, Timaru is much lower, latitude-wise, than Pretoria. Huge difference in the amount of light.

Pretoria September Weather, Average Temperature (Gauteng, South Africa) - Weather Spark

In Pretoria during September average daily high temperatures increase from 75°F to 80°F and the fraction of time spent overcast or mostly cloudy increases from 11% to 18%.

weatherspark.com

The closest place in the world for comparison is Palpala, Argentina.

So I can see: - stopping medications
- anxiety of moving
- no support system
- LD being shy per friends (in all articles)
- move from 1.2 million city to a 30 thousand one
- losing nannies
- very different climate
- 2-weeks isolation in a hotel room with a husband and three small kids

Need to look at the room itself, if someone finds it please post, but there is a trend. Of course a healthier person could have withstood it, but it wasn’t so.

ETA: added Timaru in September. You have to believe what they report: when it is windy in NZ, expect serious winds (in Wellington you experience the wind way more than in Chicago, for example); same with everything else.

NZ is absolutely gorgeous, its beauty is unique and out of this world, with super nice people, but there must be a reason why 3/4 live in Auckland.

 

[Charlot123]

FDA approves first pill for postpartum depression

In trials, the treatment improved depression symptoms among new mothers as early as three days after they started the medication.

www.nbcnews.com

This looks very useful.

It is useful, just the first thing that came to mind when I read it: use contraception before, during and at least one week after treatment. In general, relating on breastfeeding as contraception often fails, but this drug will make it fail for sure. Also, it is excreted into breast milk so perhaps pump during treatment and use formula. Making cottage cheese out of own milk could help, too, as with any meds people might need to take during breastfeeding.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

Can anyone point to the source of the information that she had 17 rounds of IVF? If so, thanks!

 

[dotr]

Can anyone point to the source of the information that she had 17 rounds of IVF? If so, thanks!

Lauren Dickason trial: Harrowing fertility journey outlined by husband

Lauren Anne Dickason has admitted killing 6yo Liané and 2yo twins Maya and Karla.

www.nzherald.co.nz

''Her husband has outlined how the now-42-year-old underwent a total of 17 gruelling rounds of IVF and eventually used donor eggs to have their children.''

 

[cjm11]

Comparison of weathers

Timaru Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (New Zealand) - Weather Spark

In Timaru, the summers are comfortable; the winters are short, cold, and windy; and it is partly cloudy year round. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 38°F to 68°F and is rarely below 32°F or above 78°F.

weatherspark.com

Timaru September Weather, Average Temperature (New Zealand) - Weather Spark

In Timaru during September average daily high temperatures increase from 55°F to 59°F and it is overcast or mostly cloudy about 45% of the time.

weatherspark.com

the closest place in the world for Timaru weather-wise is Bunker Hill, Oregon. And yes, Timaru is much lower, latitude-wise, than Pretoria. Huge difference in the amount of light.

Pretoria September Weather, Average Temperature (Gauteng, South Africa) - Weather Spark

In Pretoria during September average daily high temperatures increase from 75°F to 80°F and the fraction of time spent overcast or mostly cloudy increases from 11% to 18%.

weatherspark.com

The closest place in the world for comparison is Palpala, Argentina.

So I can see: - stopping medications
- anxiety of moving
- no support system
- LD being shy per friends (in all articles)
- move from 1.2 million city to a 30 thousand one
- losing nannies
- very different climate
- 2-weeks isolation in a hotel room with a husband and three small kids

Need to look at the room itself, if someone finds it please post, but there is a trend. Of course a healthier person could have withstood it, but it wasn’t so.

ETA: added Timaru in September. You have to believe what they report: when it is windy in NZ, expect serious winds (in Wellington you experience the wind way more than in Chicago, for example); same with everything else.

NZ is absolutely gorgeous, its beauty is unique and out of this world, with super nice people, but there must be a reason why 3/4 live in Auckland.

Don't forget she had to pack up and move to a new country. There was also an isolation period right before the move at Graham’s mother's.

That's ALOT of changes and isolation. Lauren also had severe anxiety.

 

[Charlot123]

Don't forget she had to pack up and move to a new country. There was also an isolation period right before the move at Graham’s mother's.

That's ALOT of changes and isolation. Lauren also had severe anxiety.

Per Lauren’s friends, and people visiting their house, she was perfectionistic. Meaning, a planner who had to foresee everything. This must have mounded anxiety on her.

 

[Catmommy]

I have no pity and no mercy whatsoever for anyone who murders their children, especially in such a horrendous, cruel manner. There is no explanation, no excuse that mitigates this act. None.

my opinion only

 

[Sararara]

To explain her actions in the light of the weather, perfectionism about her house… baffles me. Perfectionism speaks to narcissism.
Unless insane, she’s a murderer. She did what she did knowingly. Cannot imagine even thinking for five seconds about how hard it all was for her. Harder than walking out of your house and taking yourself away from your kids?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I have come to the conclusion that for some people, murder is the answer. Whether it's jealousy, extreme hate/spite, revenge or greed, they ask themselves the question and murder is their solution.

LD imo, was not equipped mentally, emotionally or physically to care for children. Parents like her, need extended family to increase the chances of the child's survival. She needed a full time nanny and to be a part time parent, and even then, she'd struggle because she saw those girls as a threat.
Her husband was in denial and expected her to change, she can't change, her core personality is unable to change, those little girls were always in danger, moving to another country just sped the process up.
Jmo

 

[silvercrown]

To explain her actions in the light of the weather, perfectionism about her house… baffles me. Perfectionism speaks to narcissism.
Unless insane, she’s a murderer. She did what she did knowingly. Cannot imagine even thinking for five seconds about how hard it all was for her. Harder than walking out of your house and taking yourself away from your kids?

Well yes. ‘Unless insane, she’s a murderer’ is literally the crux of the trial.

Comments about perfectionism and the weather aren’t made in isolation. People are commenting on all the stress factors which may have exacerbated the symptoms of her mental illness.

For a murder case where insanity/infanticide -specifically Lauren’s case - wasn’t potentially at the centre, I doubt anybody would be mentioning how sunny the perp’s backyard was. IMO moo etc etc