GUILTY NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 #3

[mrjitty]

As regards the claim that between 1.30 -2am while Grace was still alive the accused researched the Waitakere's (and hottest fire, bags and rigor mortis) before taking photos and watching *advertiser censored* hub (with Grace) - I agree with Dickie. This raises a strong evidential indicator that the accused intended to murder her and was researching the dumping ground before death

 

[Sleuthyinvestigator]

Thanks! This is great info to have!

I've long forgotten this stuff. There was a time I wrote up judgements for law reports so would read a few murder appeal judgements each year. But basically this is hardly the first murder/manslaughter trial NZ has had, and this stuff has been heavily litigated. So key components of the judges instructions are boiler plated from long experience. He doesn't just make all this stuff up on the spot.

We also only see the iceberg effect. The lawyers have likely argued before the Judge as to how the law fits and the judge has to interpret that.

One of the issues I think is legally fascinating is the concept of "injury" as that is required for a murder conviction under s 167(b) - per the Crown alternate pleading.



As you can see, there are 4 key requirements

1. Was there an injury?
2. Did he mean to cause it?
3. Did he know it was likely to cause death?
4. Was he reckless about the possibility of death?

s 167(b) is more aimed at the classic situation where you mean to hurt someone rather than intend to kill them. So if I deliberately hit you with a bottle on the head, all 4 boxes are probably ticked. I meant to injure you, and must have known it could kill you.

Strangulation "for sex choking" strikes me as an uncomfortable fit.

1. There was an injury - but the injury is not causing death. The strangling is causing death. Is blocking blood/oxygen flow an "injury"?
2. Did he intend to cause the injury?
3. Reckless? Clearly yes IMO

I do wonder if all of this is a bit too cute.

Strangling someone for 5-10 mins, you must have realised you were causing death but made the decision to continue. Seems the better fit.

Remember it might not have taken 5-10 minutes to strangle someone, this is not a given fact, especially if you take the fact they were quite drunk. The fact there are no other obvious injuries due to a struggle, and also that Grace was a willing sex partner also raises questions as for the intent which is more obvious in domestic violence cases and rape. Perhaps the accused did have a psychotic moment, which I think the counsel did a good job on providing with previous witness accounts, but at the same time it is strange that she message him 700 times, could she by lying to "get him back", seems they had a love/hate relationship.

We know that the accused like to use his genitals to choke his sex partners, an interesting case happened in the USA, where a sex partner choked to death during oral sex and the accused was found not guilty.

Is there anyway to find out if she had vomited, especially if she was drunk as that could contribute as well, I guess that is the problem of the accused not calling 111.

https://nypost.com/2017/05/23/murder-suspect-who-used-big-penis-defense-found-not-guilty/

 

[mrjitty]

Remember it might not have taken 5-10 minutes to strangle someone, this is not a given fact, especially if you take the fact they were quite drunk. The fact there are no other obvious injuries due to a struggle, and also that Grace was a willing sex partner also raises questions as for the intent which is more obvious in domestic violence cases and rape. Perhaps the accused did have a psychotic moment, which I think the counsel did a good job on providing with previous witness accounts, but at the same time it is strange that she message him 700 times, could she by lying to "get him back", seems they had a love/hate relationship.

We know that the accused like to use his genitals to choke his sex partners, an interesting case happened in the USA, where a sex partner choked to death during oral sex and the accused was found not guilty.

Is there anyway to find out if she had vomited, especially if she was drunk as that could contribute as well, I guess that is the problem of the accused not calling 111.

https://nypost.com/2017/05/23/murder-suspect-who-used-big-penis-defense-found-not-guilty/

It takes at least many minutes to die, and any release resets the clock.

This was agreed facts.

As for the rest of your post - i am not going there!

 

[Sooty]

I have just been catching up on the closing speeches and the comments from this forum - thanks so much for all the input, hope everyone who stayed up late got a good nights sleep in the end!
One thing that jumped out at me when I have been reading through this morning and didn’t resonate before, was that he brought an identical suitcase days later identical to the one he bought to dispose of Grace. This gave me the chills as he was still lining up tinder dates .... I know it’s pure speculation to even hint at it, but isn’t it just a bit disturbing. To my mind it looks as if he was making preparations for another. IMO. Apologies if this has been mentioned before.

 

[Elainera]

Still catching up ....

All hail Crown Prosecutor Brian Dickey. Whatever the outcome he has been amazing!

View attachment 216548

Brian Dickey | Meredith Connell

Round of applause for this magnificent man!
Excellent closing speech. Just wow.

After this I can't imagine him getting a not guilty. It's so clear to me it was murder, always has been. I hope the jury see this as well.

 

[Sooty]

I thought the Crown closing speech was very powerful But I was hoping he would say about how unusual it would be for anyone who had just had ‘consensual bdsm play ‘ for the first time with that partner not to check that they were ok, how it was etc etc once the play had immediately finished. Grace obviously couldn’t have communicated at all - did the accused not think that was strange and worthy of investigation if they had been participating in restricted breathing play?

because to my mind, either he did check on her and so knew straight away after the sex that she was dead - which may support his ‘accidental’ version of events but would not support his version of finding the body , or he didn’t check at all, climbed off, let go or whatever - without any further thought to her.

 

[All & Forward]

The contention she was still alive when he looked up the Waikateres and 'hottest fire' and looked at *advertiser censored* is kind of bizarre.

I mean if you want to kill someone and get the urge, do you really google where to buy a bag? That's panic station stuff. It's probably the least glamorous part of the murder and burial process: procuring the actual bag. Bag shopping.

Also I feel like searching *advertiser censored* is not that unique with a partner, but even when you're pissed, searching 'very young girls' or whatever it was is very very... bold. The narrative seems to be, from the defense, that they were both into BDSM. Wouldn't you watch BDSM *advertiser censored*? It's not exactly niche or difficult to find.

And I'm guessing the photos taken don't show her face. Again, if you want to take photos in that scenario, you're probably going to do them during the act itself or with a pose. I'm assuming they're close-ups of her feet. Very very unlikely.

The funny thing is being choked is far less taboo than being into feet. Easily. One is risque, sexy, young, and a bit edgy. The other is creepy. That's the feel.

 

[jaejae]

Here is a recent BBC report:

Murder accused 'eroticised backpacker's death'

A Sky News report:

Grace Millane murdered by man seeking 'total domination', court hears

A report from the Sun:

Grace Millane killed by man ‘seeking total domination’ by choking life from her, court hears as jury to decide his fate

A report from the Sun's arch enemy the Mirror:

Grace Millane 'encouraged date to choke her during sex and apply more force'

 

[KittleSkittle]

because to my mind, either he did check on her and so knew straight away after the sex that she was dead - which may support his ‘accidental’ version of events but would not support his version of finding the body , or he didn’t check at all, climbed off, let go or whatever - without any further thought to her.

I absolutely cannot get this bit of his story to compute. She accidentally dies during sex, and he doesn’t notice, and he finishes having sex with her, leaves her lying dead on the floor, and goes to have a shower, and still doesn’t notice? How?

 

[jaejae]

Here is a recent BBC report:

Murder accused 'eroticised backpacker's death'

A Sky News report:

Grace Millane murdered by man seeking 'total domination', court hears

A report from the Sun:

Grace Millane killed by man ‘seeking total domination’ by choking life from her, court hears as jury to decide his fate

A report from the Sun's arch enemy the Mirror:

Grace Millane 'encouraged date to choke her during sex and apply more force'

What I will say and this is really stating the obvious any man using these type of site and into this type of sex or I would say perversion is not going to get better and more extreme in their behaviour most of the time. Genuine nice gentle guys are not found there.

 

[Sooty]

I absolutely cannot get this bit of his story to compute. She accidentally dies during sex, and he doesn’t notice, and he finishes having sex with her, leaves her lying dead on the floor, and goes to have a shower, and still doesn’t notice? How?

IMO this is just one of the reasons why he did not take the stand. There is no defence. There is no rationalising for his behaviour, his versions of events are a fantasy, and we are unlikely to know what actually went on between them in that room and what his actions were. We have just been presented with the best version that he can dream up. IMO.

 

[bluebird69]

What a Waste of everyone’s time listening to this defense. The jurors will have their verdict before they reach the jurors room imo

 

[Kikixxxx]

Does anyone remember what time he was googling flesh eating birds? And ‘vultures in New Zealand’... I can’t seem to find the timeline now. Was it before the Waitakere rangers/*advertiser censored* searches? When he’s claiming she’s still alive and he’s just drunk googling Cause LOL

 

[KittleSkittle]

IMO this is just one of the reasons why he did not take the stand. There is no defence. There is no rationalising for his behaviour, his versions of events are a fantasy, and we are unlikely to know what actually went on between them in that room and what his actions were. We have just been presented with the best version that he can dream up. IMO.

I agree. The defence seems very weak to me. They’ve thrown up a lot of noise about Grace’s sexual history and preferences, but they’ve not addressed key questions about how this ‘accidental’ death actually happened.

 

[Grapey]

Does anyone remember what time he was googling flesh eating birds? And ‘vultures in New Zealand’... I can’t seem to find the timeline now. Was it before the Waitakere rangers/*advertiser censored* searches? When he’s claiming she’s still alive and he’s just drunk googling Cause LOL

It began at 1.29am with the search term 'Waitākere Ranges' and then 'hottest fire' a few minutes later.

Detective Samuel Luker told the court the defendant then watched *advertiser censored* on several websites before a 30-minute break.

The court heard he took seven explicit photographs of Ms Millane's body and her lower leg and foot in quick succession about 1.45am.
...
the court was told the man had made a number of Google searches about 6am the following day, including 'rigor mortis' and 'extra large bags' and 'carpet cleaner'. Later that afternoon the man searched 'flesh eating birds' and 'are there vultures in New Zealand'.

Police also found two screenshots of Ms Millane's Instagram profile saved to his phone.

Grace Millane trial: Accused man's search history detailed


I'd forgotten the sequence also.

So the Waitākere Ranges and fire searches was just after he killed her (or before he killed her and they were looking at places to visit ).
The next morning was rigor mortis, large bags and carpet cleaner.
And the next afternoon was the flesh eating bird searches

 

[they'll get you]

’Could not consent to death’: Crown slams murder accused’s case
The man accused of strangling his Tinder date, backpacker Grace Millane, said he was “just doing what his sexual partners wanted him to do in the bedroom”.

The man accused of Grace Millane’s murder spent 5-10 minutes strangling her and then took “trophy” photos of her body, the Crown has told the jury during its closing argument.

The accused then created a “labyrinth of storytelling and lies” and calmly disposed of her body and other evidence, the court heard today.

Murder accused says death on Tinder date was ‘sex accident’

 

[Edinlass]

Does anyone remember what time he was googling flesh eating birds? And ‘vultures in New Zealand’... I can’t seem to find the timeline now. Was it before the Waitakere rangers/*advertiser censored* searches? When he’s claiming she’s still alive and he’s just drunk googling Cause LOL

Thinks he some kinda toy story cowboy...

 

[they'll get you]

It began at 1.29am with the search term 'Waitākere Ranges' and then 'hottest fire' a few minutes later.

Detective Samuel Luker told the court the defendant then watched *advertiser censored* on several websites before a 30-minute break.

The court heard he took seven explicit photographs of Ms Millane's body and her lower leg and foot in quick succession about 1.45am.
...
the court was told the man had made a number of Google searches about 6am the following day, including 'rigor mortis' and 'extra large bags' and 'carpet cleaner'. Later that afternoon the man searched 'flesh eating birds' and 'are there vultures in New Zealand'.

Police also found two screenshots of Ms Millane's Instagram profile saved to his phone.

Grace Millane trial: Accused man's search history detailed


I'd forgotten the sequence also.

So the Waitākere Ranges and fire searches was just after he killed her (or before he killed her and they were looking at places to visit ).
The next morning was rigor mortis, large bags and carpet cleaner.
And the next afternoon was the flesh eating bird searches

Detective Samuel Luker told the court the defendant then watched *advertiser censored* on several websites before a 30-minute break.


Some *advertiser censored* is so violent and horrific and the problem is some men think this is what women want.

Ted Bundy was addicted to *advertiser censored* which was mild in comparison to today’s and children have access to it at an early age and getting hooked. Seeing that at a young age would warp any brain.
IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“This isn’t a little bit of sex gone wrong,” Dickey told the jury. “There is powerful evidence in this case that Grace was murdered … because the person doing that must have known that they were hurting her, causing her harm, that might well cause her death, but they were reckless and carried on, and she died.”

The defence lawyer Ian Brookie said: “It’s not a dangerous act, and they were not thinking of it as a dangerous act, they were just thinking of it as having sex.”

Dickey described the rarity of death from strangulation during sex, recalling a pathologist’s evidence that it was “incredibly rare” globally and there had never been a case in New Zealand.

The defence said the accused’s actions following Millane’s death showed he was “panicking” and was afraid he would not be believed and go to jail. “When confronted with the crisis of this unexpected, unforeseen and unintended death the defendant freaked out … he reacted badly” Brookie said.

The crown said extensive CCTV evidence gathered the next morning showed the accused displayed no signs of being “panicked” but instead demonstrated “focus and nonchalance” as he travelled around Auckland in a hire car buying a large suitcase to dispose of Millane’s body, cleaning products to remove blood stains from his room, and setting up another Tinder date while Millane’s body remained in his room.

Dickey told the jury: “He was cool, calm, in control … it speaks to someone who was entirely without regret.”
Grace Millane trial: 'You can't consent to your murder,' prosecutor says in closing

British backpacker Grace Millane was 'murdered by man seeking total domination over women' | Daily Mail Online

 

[Alyce]

Brookie told the jury they may come to the question of manslaughter for the accused, which Justice Moore will direct them on tomorrow.
But, he continued, if any of the jurors were unsure about the Crown's case then they must find the accused not guilty of murder.
"You know, I'm just not sure about this. I have doubts that I just can't dismiss," he said some of the jurors may think.
If a not guilty verdict for murder was returned, Brookie said, then the jury shouldn't feel as if they haven't delivered justice.
"You haven't failed to deliver on the expectations of those who have, long ago, made up their misinformed views about this case."

Grace Millane murder trial: 'It was an accidental death' - defence